Kris Hadar, tarologist extraordinaire. I have sometimes nicknamed him in my mind the Jules Verne of the Tarot of Marseille.
Author of several books on the Tarot as well as numerology of which his method of reading is a vital component; creator of the excellent and authentic Tarot of Marseilles (albeit a couple of details which I question) Kris Hadar's Véritable Tarot de Marseille http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/cards/hadar-marseilles/.
A true poet at heart and a romantic. But when it comes to the Tarot, he is rigorous. He is also a Tarot historian. Steeped in it for decades, he knows it well. He had a renowned school too in his town wherever it is in Quebec. Montreal perhaps. He was originally from France, but moved to Quebec quite early on in life.
I had the privilege of corresponding with him for a while many years ago. I'm not saying this to do any name throwing. It's just so that I can testify to his honesty, his rigour, his great general culture, his curiosity and his desire to share generously without counting what he had learned about the Tarot which was and probably still is his great love. He is no longer active on the Tarot scene. Quite by chance in a recent interview that I saw on youtube with him where he was speaking on an unrelated subject, he mentioned in passing that he stopped his tarot activities because people aren't interested in learning anymore. For him, Tarot requires a lot of dedication.
Anyway, once I had asked him if he'd ever found any Templar connections. And he wrote me back the following email. I thought it would be nice to have a record of it on Cult of Tarot. It's almost a kind of a rare document. Sort of a Dead Sea Scroll kind of thing. The original is in French. This is the translation I made of it at the time on Aeclectic. It's not a literary translation - it probably deserves a better one. I didn't go over it. I copy/pasted the one over on Aeclectic. But I am going to post the French original untouched, so if anyone reads French, they can compare if they want to.
I'm posting the translation in a separate post for sake of clarity. I had asked Kris at the time if I could post it publicly so there's no issue with that.
Now as you will see, Kris believes that the Tarot is undoubtedly of Occitanian origin. He gives one example of why here. But he had other things to back his theory too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occitania - Go directly to the History section if you go to the wiki page, otherwise it's too long.
This forum is officially closed. It will however remain online and active in a limited form for the time being.
Kris Hadar tarologist extraordinaire - and the origin of the Tarot
Kris Hadar tarologist extraordinaire - and the origin of the Tarot
Rumi was asked “which music sound is haram?” Rumi replied, "The sound of tablespoons playing in the pots of the rich, which are heard by the ears of the poor and hungry." (haram means forbidden)
Re: Kris Hadar tarologist extraordinaire - and the origin of the Tarot
Translation of an email received from Kris Hadar quite a number of years ago.
The first thing one needs to ask about tarot in order to find its origins is: Who is this Bateleur… in the tarot.
One must not lose sight of the fact that the Tarot, when it reached the 18th century, had lost its original image which was adapted to suit the mode of the times. If I remember correctly, in about 1700, the King of France ordered the destruction of all the tarot moulds of the time to redesign them to the fashion of the day. Even though this was a catastrophe, the fact still remains that the adaptation followed the canons of the ancient decks.
The Dodal is, as I have mentioned to you already, the closest we can get to the original canon for historical reasons which I will tell you about one day. The tarot of Jean Payen of 1743 copied the Dodal, the Conver was inspired by the Payen.
The Bateleur was originally a Juggler and in the 12th century, to be a juggler was a respected profession : it had to do with “speaking” … nothing to do with the jugglers of the Roman times, or the jugglers found in 13th Century fairs. Read the book “Nouvelles occitanes du Moyen Age” (Collection GF Flammarion), and you will understand that the juggler is the spokesman of the Troubador, but also the spokesman of Knowledge.
And what did the Troubador do ? He sang of the Lady – he sang of the World…because when he had discovered his Lady…he discovered his SOUL! (Translator's note: This is a word-play (language of the birds) impossible to translate, i.e. “Dame” and “Ame” ). The Bateleur 1 – the World 21 and the Fol who is the one who walks from 1 to 21!
This simple reflection should make you realise that the Tarot is Occitanean.
One of the first indications that Tarot is indeed an anagram of Rota – is to know that the word Rota is the same word – even in the 19th Centuray that expresses the latin root « Rosa » … rose… think here The Rose of the cathedral is also the Wheel "of the rosace (rose window)… Therefore the Tarot is also the "Roman de la Rose" …Courtesy… the search for Oneself through the other !
Personally, although I have studied the Templars…I have found no source from that direction.
Do not believe that the original Tarot was a game hidden from people… in the 12th century… occult knowledge was known to all.
In fact, the word « spirituality » was created in the 19th century. In the 12th century, EVERYONE was a mystic! Which is not the same thing… As the Chronicles of Viterbe say.. Tarot is a game.. but also and especially a game of culture the purpose of which was to learn to count, to read, to understand nature, the waking of the being and to understand why one exists. But strange as this may seem.. people were naturally in this quest. A quest accessible to all, but which remained the privilege of people who were well-born…spiritually! It is a part of the Fin’Amor and the Gai Savoir of the Occitanians that was destroyed in the name of a fallacious reason: the Cathars… to appropriate their treasures. And the treaty of 1229 allowed for the destruction of all Occitanian literature, that of the Renaissance!… where one can find, as if by chance, the first known game of Tarot, the Visconti Forza, round 1450.
The first thing one needs to ask about tarot in order to find its origins is: Who is this Bateleur… in the tarot.
One must not lose sight of the fact that the Tarot, when it reached the 18th century, had lost its original image which was adapted to suit the mode of the times. If I remember correctly, in about 1700, the King of France ordered the destruction of all the tarot moulds of the time to redesign them to the fashion of the day. Even though this was a catastrophe, the fact still remains that the adaptation followed the canons of the ancient decks.
The Dodal is, as I have mentioned to you already, the closest we can get to the original canon for historical reasons which I will tell you about one day. The tarot of Jean Payen of 1743 copied the Dodal, the Conver was inspired by the Payen.
The Bateleur was originally a Juggler and in the 12th century, to be a juggler was a respected profession : it had to do with “speaking” … nothing to do with the jugglers of the Roman times, or the jugglers found in 13th Century fairs. Read the book “Nouvelles occitanes du Moyen Age” (Collection GF Flammarion), and you will understand that the juggler is the spokesman of the Troubador, but also the spokesman of Knowledge.
And what did the Troubador do ? He sang of the Lady – he sang of the World…because when he had discovered his Lady…he discovered his SOUL! (Translator's note: This is a word-play (language of the birds) impossible to translate, i.e. “Dame” and “Ame” ). The Bateleur 1 – the World 21 and the Fol who is the one who walks from 1 to 21!
This simple reflection should make you realise that the Tarot is Occitanean.
One of the first indications that Tarot is indeed an anagram of Rota – is to know that the word Rota is the same word – even in the 19th Centuray that expresses the latin root « Rosa » … rose… think here The Rose of the cathedral is also the Wheel "of the rosace (rose window)… Therefore the Tarot is also the "Roman de la Rose" …Courtesy… the search for Oneself through the other !
Personally, although I have studied the Templars…I have found no source from that direction.
Do not believe that the original Tarot was a game hidden from people… in the 12th century… occult knowledge was known to all.
In fact, the word « spirituality » was created in the 19th century. In the 12th century, EVERYONE was a mystic! Which is not the same thing… As the Chronicles of Viterbe say.. Tarot is a game.. but also and especially a game of culture the purpose of which was to learn to count, to read, to understand nature, the waking of the being and to understand why one exists. But strange as this may seem.. people were naturally in this quest. A quest accessible to all, but which remained the privilege of people who were well-born…spiritually! It is a part of the Fin’Amor and the Gai Savoir of the Occitanians that was destroyed in the name of a fallacious reason: the Cathars… to appropriate their treasures. And the treaty of 1229 allowed for the destruction of all Occitanian literature, that of the Renaissance!… where one can find, as if by chance, the first known game of Tarot, the Visconti Forza, round 1450.
Rumi was asked “which music sound is haram?” Rumi replied, "The sound of tablespoons playing in the pots of the rich, which are heard by the ears of the poor and hungry." (haram means forbidden)
Re: Kris Hadar tarologist extraordinaire - and the origin of the Tarot
Original email from Kris Hadar
La première chose qu'il faut se poser sur le tarot pour retrouver ses origines est : qui est ce basteleur... dans le tarot. Il ne faut pas perdre de vue que le Tarot, quand il arrive au 18e siècle a
perdu l'image originelle qui fut adaptée à l'air du temps. De mémoire, le roi de France imposa en 1700, la destruction de tous les moules de tarot de l'époque pour redessiner les dessins à la mode de l'époque. Même si c'est une catastrophe, il n'en demeure pas moins que l'adaptation suivait les canons des anciens jeux.
Le Dodal est comme je vous l'ai dit le plus proche du canon originel pour des raisons de faits historiques que je vous parlerai un jour. Le tarot de Jean Payen de 1743 copia le Dodal, et le Conver s'inspira du Payen.
La basteleur est originellement un Jongleur et au 12e siècle, être jongleur est un beau métier : c'était celui de dire... cela n'avait rien à voir avec les jongleurs à l'époque de Romes ou les jongleurs de foire du 13e siècle. Lisez le livre : Nouvelles occitanes du Moyen Age dans la collection GF Flammarion, et vous comprendrez qu'un jongleur au 12e est le porte parole du
Troubadour mais aussi du Savoir !
Et que faisait le Troubadour ? Il chantait la Dame... il chantait le
Monde... car après à connaître sa Dame... c'était découvrir son ÂME ! Bateleur 1 -> le Monde 21 et le Fol est celui qui fait le cheminement de 1 à 21 !
Cette simple réflexion... doit vous amener à penser que le Tarot est Occitan...
Une des premières indications de Tarot qui est effectivement l'anagramme de Rota... est de savoir que le mot Rota est le même mot... encore au 19e siècle pour exprimer la racine latine de Rosa... Rose... car La rose des cathédrale... est aussi la Roue des rosace... Ainsi, le Tarot serait le Roman de la Rose... la Courtoisie... la quête de Soi à travers l'autre !
Personnellement, malgré que j'ai étudié les Templiers... je n'ai trouvé aucune source en rapport avec les Templiers.
Il ne faut pas croire que le Tarot originel était un jeu caché au gens... au 12e... la connaissance occulte est le fait de tous !
D'ailleurs le mot spiritualité fut créé au 19e siècle... au 12e... TOUS les gens sont des mystiques ! ce qui n'est pas la même chose... Comme l'énonce les chroniques de Viterbe... le Tarot est bien un jeu... mais aussi et surtout un jeu de culture qui servait à apprendre à compter, à lire, à comprendre la nature, l'éveil de l'être et comprendre le pourquoi on existe.
Mais aussi étrange que cela puisse paraître... les gens étaient naturellement dans cette quête ! Quête accessible à tous, mais qui demeurait l'appanage des gens bien nés... spirituellement ! Il fait parti du Fin'Amor et du Gai savoir des Occitans qu'on a détruit au nom d'une fausse raison : les Cathares... pour s'approprier de ses trésors. Et le traité de 1229 permis qu'on détruise toute la littérature occitane... qui comme magie s'est retrouvée en Italie et a servit d'ingrédien à la naissance, justement de la Renaissance !... où on retrouve comme par hasard le premier jeu de tarot connu de Visconti Forza vers 1450.
La première chose qu'il faut se poser sur le tarot pour retrouver ses origines est : qui est ce basteleur... dans le tarot. Il ne faut pas perdre de vue que le Tarot, quand il arrive au 18e siècle a
perdu l'image originelle qui fut adaptée à l'air du temps. De mémoire, le roi de France imposa en 1700, la destruction de tous les moules de tarot de l'époque pour redessiner les dessins à la mode de l'époque. Même si c'est une catastrophe, il n'en demeure pas moins que l'adaptation suivait les canons des anciens jeux.
Le Dodal est comme je vous l'ai dit le plus proche du canon originel pour des raisons de faits historiques que je vous parlerai un jour. Le tarot de Jean Payen de 1743 copia le Dodal, et le Conver s'inspira du Payen.
La basteleur est originellement un Jongleur et au 12e siècle, être jongleur est un beau métier : c'était celui de dire... cela n'avait rien à voir avec les jongleurs à l'époque de Romes ou les jongleurs de foire du 13e siècle. Lisez le livre : Nouvelles occitanes du Moyen Age dans la collection GF Flammarion, et vous comprendrez qu'un jongleur au 12e est le porte parole du
Troubadour mais aussi du Savoir !
Et que faisait le Troubadour ? Il chantait la Dame... il chantait le
Monde... car après à connaître sa Dame... c'était découvrir son ÂME ! Bateleur 1 -> le Monde 21 et le Fol est celui qui fait le cheminement de 1 à 21 !
Cette simple réflexion... doit vous amener à penser que le Tarot est Occitan...
Une des premières indications de Tarot qui est effectivement l'anagramme de Rota... est de savoir que le mot Rota est le même mot... encore au 19e siècle pour exprimer la racine latine de Rosa... Rose... car La rose des cathédrale... est aussi la Roue des rosace... Ainsi, le Tarot serait le Roman de la Rose... la Courtoisie... la quête de Soi à travers l'autre !
Personnellement, malgré que j'ai étudié les Templiers... je n'ai trouvé aucune source en rapport avec les Templiers.
Il ne faut pas croire que le Tarot originel était un jeu caché au gens... au 12e... la connaissance occulte est le fait de tous !
D'ailleurs le mot spiritualité fut créé au 19e siècle... au 12e... TOUS les gens sont des mystiques ! ce qui n'est pas la même chose... Comme l'énonce les chroniques de Viterbe... le Tarot est bien un jeu... mais aussi et surtout un jeu de culture qui servait à apprendre à compter, à lire, à comprendre la nature, l'éveil de l'être et comprendre le pourquoi on existe.
Mais aussi étrange que cela puisse paraître... les gens étaient naturellement dans cette quête ! Quête accessible à tous, mais qui demeurait l'appanage des gens bien nés... spirituellement ! Il fait parti du Fin'Amor et du Gai savoir des Occitans qu'on a détruit au nom d'une fausse raison : les Cathares... pour s'approprier de ses trésors. Et le traité de 1229 permis qu'on détruise toute la littérature occitane... qui comme magie s'est retrouvée en Italie et a servit d'ingrédien à la naissance, justement de la Renaissance !... où on retrouve comme par hasard le premier jeu de tarot connu de Visconti Forza vers 1450.
Rumi was asked “which music sound is haram?” Rumi replied, "The sound of tablespoons playing in the pots of the rich, which are heard by the ears of the poor and hungry." (haram means forbidden)