Reading the Pips : The Suits and the Elements

[Diana]

We discussed the elements in this thread : viewtopic.php?f=132&t=2290

Now, if one wishes to use the elements in our tarot readings, we have to decide which element represents each suit. This is a very common practice in the tarot world to link elements to suits and it can provide extra insight and it’s also lots of fun. I think. Again, it's not obligatory - there are many methods and means to read the pips.

I wouldn't know personally how to do a good reading that satisfies me without this though. So it's really important in my case anyway to clear this up and come to a decision as to which element belongs to which suit. And I think a lot of people use this method, so a thread on this could be useful.

Now I reckon that few people, if any, would quibble that the suit of Cups represents the Water element (or vice versa) and the Deniers/Coins the Earth element (or vice versa). The former due to the container, and the latter due to the earth representing the material world.

But there is a quibble about which suit represents Fire and which suit represents Air.

The most common in the tarot world today and has been for a long time, is this one :

Air = Swords
Fire = Batons

This has now been taken more or less as a given and few people question it. But some have. Some very fine people in fact, well versed in the Tarot.

The best argument I ever heard, I think it may have been Alain Bocher, was that the Batons cannot represent Fire. Because Batons are made of wood and fire burns wood. An element cannot hold the seeds of its own destruction. So following his logic which is pretty hard to refute, this would make :

Air = Batons
Fire = Swords

Fire as Swords makes sense actually. Because the Sword is forged in fire.

And then there is Plato, and here I’ll requote what I already quoted in the thread on the elements. But it fits in with the thesis that Fire is Swords, so I’d like to mention it although I don’t know what kind of attention or importance it should receive. I read that Plato's actual writings were not well known in the Middle Ages in that region of the world, but Neoplatonism was all over.

"Plato believed that he could describe the Universe using five simple shapes. He proposed that four of these solids built the Four Elements: sharp-pointed tetrahedra give the sting of Fire, smooth-sliding octahedra give easily-parted Air, droplety icosahedra give Water, and lumpish, packable cubes give Earth. The dodecahedron, at last, is the shape of the Universe as a whole. This fifth element is sometimes called aether/ether and according to ancient and medieval science, is the material that fills the region of the universe above the terrestrial sphere. It is also called the QUINTESSENCE." (It has been suggested that the Major Arcana of the Tarot can be considered as the fifth element).

Sharp-pointed tetrahedra give the sting of Fire. Swords are the only pointy things in the tarot.

Since I started thinking seriously about the elements, from the beginning of the study of the pips we’ve undertaken, I have decided that I’ve been doing it all wrong. I’ve always used the old “traditional” method of Air being Swords and Batons being Fire. But I think this is incorrect. Bocher is right. An element cannot hold within itself its own destruction. So unless I hear a really good argument against this, I'm going to change my method of reading. It's not going to be easy at first - old habits die hard - but I think it's really more logical and I like my Tarot to be logical.

[Jobilee]

So I'm new to this post and quite new to tarot also. I've been reading your post on the pips, trying to familiarise myself woth ppls thoughts so that I can make my own judgements. I've read how each are numbered and how they connect woth the majors and then the suits they represent, and it wasn't untill I read this post that I seen why you think of swords as fire and wands/batons as air.
You make a very good point.
When I first read that you thought of swords this way I thought "nope, I've learnt it as, the swords are air, and the wands/batons are fire, and this is what I'll stick to to not confuse myself. However now that I have read this post I can't unread it. How can a wooden object have fire as it's element and not be destroyed in the process, and then u mentioned that swords are actually wrought in fire, which make so much more sense its crazy. Having fire as the element of swords feels right, it's strengthens the metal!
So now I need to know do the swords, having fire as their element, keep the "ideas, thoughts, communication as their own and the wands having air as their element, keep willpower, creativity, passion, inspiration and energy as their own? Or do they swap???
I feel like passion and energy are a fire thing, and ideas, thoughts and communication as an air related thing this has got me all mixed up now
I dont know what to think, it's tricky enough learning tarot, then to read something that changes it around in your head, how do I keep reading it the same way???