Marseilles and coloring vs pip deck

[AstralPasta]

Hey

I've been thinking of getting a Marseilles-style deck to have the three major systems in my collection, and mainly to be able to read numerologically without distraction.....and also out of curiosity.

But I also saw the Amano tarot online, which is a pip deck, and I'm really into it. There are a lot of Japanese pip decks that interest me. (I was into the Miracles tarot too, but I saw fish and an aquatic vibe with the Pentacles, which confuses me. Maybe it's the wealth association, or there's a cultural context I'm missing. I've seen it in another Japanese deck before too I think. It's interesting too though)

The only thing is I wondered is if the coloring mattered? Is the TdM also heavily symbolic, or symbolic in a way the RWS isn't?

Also what does learning how to read Marseilles entail? Is it a lot of learning church history and studying Europe and art from the times?

[katrinka]

Hey

I've been thinking of getting a Marseilles-style deck to have the three major systems in my collection, and mainly to be able to read numerologically without distraction.....and also out of curiosity.

But I also saw the Amano tarot online, which is a pip deck, and I'm really into it. There are a lot of Japanese pip decks that interest me. (I was into the Miracles tarot too, but I saw fish and an aquatic vibe with the Pentacles, which confuses me. Maybe it's the wealth association, or there's a cultural context I'm missing. I've seen it in another Japanese deck before too I think. It's interesting too though)

Are they Koi fish? https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-meani ... se-culture

The only thing is I wondered is if the coloring mattered? Is the TdM also heavily symbolic, or symbolic in a way the RWS isn't?

A lot of people utilize the colors when reading, but using a deck with variant colors doesn't seem to hurt.
It's symbolic, but without all the esoteric stuff - unless you impute those ideas to it. Confused yet?

Also what does learning how to read Marseilles entail? Is it a lot of learning church history and studying Europe and art from the times?

I took Jean-Michel David's course back when he was running it. It was pretty much all "church history and studying Europe and art from the times" and while it was fascinating, it isn't really necessary to know any of that in order to read the cards. You can use a playing card method for the pips. It is a deck of playing cards, after all.

This book is quite useful! https://smile.amazon.com/Untold-Tarot-R ... 0764355619

There are other books that come highly recommended - Ben Dov, Jodo, etc., - but for information you can use to actually read the cards, it's Matthews, hands down.

[qndynes]

The only thing is I wondered is if the coloring mattered? Is the TdM also heavily symbolic, or symbolic in a way the RWS isn't?

Also what does learning how to read Marseilles entail? Is it a lot of learning church history and studying Europe and art from the times?

Well, everyone has their opinions and ways of reading the cards, but for me, the TDM can be as symbolic as you want to make it. I mean it is symbols we are looking at as with everything else, signs and symbols. So yes, it can be symbolic. You can see the emperor and think of an authoritative figure, of institutions of power, etc.

As for learning, again, my opinion, well you could get a feel for the deck, for the pips, then start experimenting by reading the cards. My favorite tarot book, is Camelia Elias's The Marseille Tarot Towards the Art of Reading. There are also other good Books, Ben Dov's Open Reading, anything by Enrique Enriquez is good. Matthews's Untold Tarot is quite popular, it came out recently if I'm not mistaken. Jodorowsky could be skipped...

In the end, make it yours. Bring numerology into it, bring your own symbol set, bring your own experiences. For me, no tradition is as clear, direct, and punchy as the Marseille Tarot line.

[Diana]

The only thing is I wondered is if the coloring mattered? Is the TdM also heavily symbolic, or symbolic in a way the RWS isn't?

Also what does learning how to read Marseilles entail? Is it a lot of learning church history and studying Europe and art from the times?

I doubt very much that the colours chosen by the master card makers are there by accident. They must have some meaning. Now, if they really add something to the reading of the cards, I'm on the fence about this. I tend not to pay attention. Perhaps I should.

I think if one doesn't have some background of the social, religious and historical goings-on at the time the cards were conceived, one is really missing out on a lot when it comes to the TdM. In fact, more than just a lot. Perhaps even one would miss out on the whole essence of the TDM. And also I suspect if one doesn't have some knowledge, one would have lean on ready-made interpretations in books. Which can be done. But what would be worse would be to lean on RWS meanings because one doesn't know what else to do.

I have always thought it must be very hard for someone who is trained in RWS types of Tarots to forget them and to see the cards anew. The old reflexes must be hard to break.

Edited to add: I do believe however that one makes any Tarot "one's own" in the end. For instance, never in all my readings have I ever seen The Star to have any downsides. It's almost like a "convention" that has been established between me and The Tarot. When The Star comes up for me, it can only be wonderful news. And when Le Pape (Hierophant) comes up in a health issue, it always points to the need to go and see some kind of specialist (doctor, dentist, osteopath or whatever). This I think is certainly not always the case for other Tarot readers. We create our own relationship with the cards.

[inomminate]

Flornoy thinks the colors matter a lot
"The images and their titles speak to our intellect, the colors to our unconscious" from Seeing the World

He is talking about the Noblet when he gives the following rhyme

White, the tears of Maitre Jacques,
Black, the earth that bore him,
Red, the blood he did pour out,
Blue, the blows he suffered,
Yellow, his tenacity,
and Green for Hope.

[inomminate]

Despite Flornoy,s belief in strict colors I have played around with recoloring:

[Diana]

White, the tears of Maitre Jacques,
Black, the earth that bore him,
Red, the blood he did pour out,
Blue, the blows he suffered,
Yellow, his tenacity,
and Green for Hope.

This Maître Jacques in question (in case someone doesn't know) is said to have been one of the legendary builders of the Temple of Solomon. He's still very much "alive" in France and this is what is also referred to I would think in the Tarot, as he is also the patron of the "Compagnonnage", a very old and traditional way of transmitting certain knowledge. Particularly well known for stonemasons. These stonemasons played a big part in the building of cathedrals. Few people become companions - it's a long journey, not meant for everyone. But hugely enriching apparently. It's not only learning a skill, it's a kind of philosophy as well. And steeped in tradition and very respectful to it. There is a regain of interest apparently in the younger generation in Companionship.

[AstralPasta]

Interesting! Thank you everyone for your replies.

I hadn't realized Marseilles was so flexible. That's super interesting and exciting. I guess that's what give it it's appeal and continued popularity.

Also, yes, Katrinka, I think they are koi fish! Thank you for helping to clear that up for me.

I'm a lot more psyched about getting a Marseilles-style deck now. What Marigold said about it being potentially being difficult to lose RWS meanings or see the cards anew has only made me more interested I think.

At the same time, I am trying to make a more in-depth study of the RWS at the moment. But I think I want to bring in a pip deck to enrich my understanding of the numbered minors and to create my own keywords and such.

I might just get playing cards to start though, since I'm on a budget, but I'm going to keep an eye out. Thanks everyone.

[katrinka]

Marseilles is super flexible. I'd venture to say that that's what a lot of people find intimidating, the fact that there are so many conflicting - and strong - opinions about it.

While something like the Thoth has a definite set of ideas behind it, TdM is wide open. Even the Big Names disagree. Flornoy is not Jodo/Camoin is not Ben Dov is not Matthews is not...ad infinitum. You can do anything from Hedgewytchery to elaborate occult correspondences.

I like the way Andy Boroveshengra reads it: number and suit, plus classical astrology and a few other techniques like color pooling. I am not an astrologer, though, so I have to find my own way. We all do. Again, TdM is wide open.

You do you.

[katrinka]

I doubt very much that the colours chosen by the master card makers are there by accident. They must have some meaning. Now, if they really add something to the reading of the cards, I'm on the fence about this. I tend not to pay attention. Perhaps I should.

On the one hand, there is evidence that suggests the colors may have had profound significance.
On the other hand, they were making gaming decks for people to use in taverns, etc. It's more than possible that "a cigar is just a cigar." Their palette would have been somewhat limited, and people tend to impute all kinds of meanings to colors. Sometimes red is neither passion nor blood - it's just handy.

And sometimes there's an intent, but it's less than mystical. The artist/designer is just trying to set a certain tone. Look at this powder container. https://www.goldbond.com/blog/product/m ... dy-powder/ The blue-green looks very cooling! And I think that for the most part, this is the case. If I paint a picture and I'm trying to convey a particular mood, I might use a preponderance of a certain color to help that along.

You might wear red when you're feeling bold and want to be noticed. It's not to signify the blood of Christ, it's just a bright, strident, and somewhat vampy color that tends to stand out. Likewise soft blues or greys are calm, browns are earthy, etc.

Personally, I'd advise staying on the fence.

I think if one doesn't have some background of the social, religious and historical goings-on at the time the cards were conceived, one is really missing out on a lot when it comes to the TdM. In fact, more than just a lot. Perhaps even one would miss out on the whole essence of the TDM.

I can agree that the historical and cultural inflections are important. That goes for any deck - or anything at all, really. I was just on about the suits in the mundane little Lenormand here viewtopic.php?f=20&t=1585
It's vital to know the mindset behind things.

And also I suspect if one doesn't have some knowledge, one would have lean on ready-made interpretations in books. Which can be done. But what would be worse would be to lean on RWS meanings because one doesn't know what else to do.

I know what you're saying, but I'm going to raise an objection here. There was a big movement to popularize Tarot (all Tarot, not just TdM). Tarot previously had an air of exclusivity, and if you lived in a little town in Kansas with no one to mentor you and all the available books pointed to the Golden Dawn, but that was long ago and far away (and not necessarily applicable to TdM anyway), what to do? So starting in the late 70's or so, there was a movement saying "Anyone can do this, just look at the cards. What are your impressions?"

That's fine in addition to study. But a "Books are bad!" mentality soon grew out of it. Card meanings were referred to as "canned meanings." All of a sudden they were no longer considered valid, but anything you pulled out of your @#$ was.

That would be all well and good if it actually worked. But willful ignorance is toxic. And it's not just happening in our little area of interest, but in areas where the stakes are much higher. There are, for instance, legions of people insisting that vaccines cause autism, in spite of that being thoroughly debunked. Now we have measles outbreaks. In 2019. I imagine polio is next.

By all means note your visual impressions when looking at the cards! But please, please learn your book meanings. Otherwise there is no point in using a Tarot. You could look at literally anything and come up with some kind of "reading".

I have always thought it must be very hard for someone who is trained in RWS types of Tarots to forget them and to see the cards anew. The old reflexes must be hard to break.

Indeed it is. That particular kneejerk response was illustrated when Lenormand was breaking big in the US/UK and people were attempting to read it according to modern Tarot, saying the Coffin was "transformation", the Moon was emotions, and all sorts of rubbish. All well and good until we attempted to correct them and they got majorly upset! Lenormand is a method, not a deck, and that method is not related to RWS.

Not all cartomancy stems from Mister Grand Orient, lol.

There's a world of cartomantic methods out there, and we should familiarize ourselves with what we're trying to use!

But, that said, if anyone wants to retrofit TdM to RWS, I might look somewhat askance at that but I wouldn't call them out on it. TdM is not a method. Do what thou wilt.

As for your Hierophant/Pape/doctor, it does fit the idea of a man of knowledge bestowing a boon. So maybe a book meaning after all?