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Questions about the Thoth

A place for beginners and experienced alike to delve into the Mysteries of Tarot's most enigmatic deck.
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This forum is for discussions regarding the study and appreciation the the Thoth Tarot.
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Nemia
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Questions about the Thoth

Post by Nemia »

Many people wouldn't touch the Thoth with a barge pole (is that the word?) because they're afraid it's evil. There is such an aura of the forbidden around the Thoth, even more so than about other tarot decks.

My personal opinion is that this is exactly the effect Aleister Crowley, the creator of this deck, intended. He was a clever man, and without a doubt had a certain ruthlessness. He worked very hard to evoke an aura of mysterious, powerful evil aroound himself - probably as a rebellion against the Christian morality he grew up with. Artists have often rebelled visibly against the standards they were raised with because they found them limiting, and in that sense, Crowly created his life as artwork. I'm quite sure that he was an unpleasant person in many respects but many great artists were the same; it's a question of ego and power and feeling of a mission. (Let's not even begin to think about rulers and politicians! How many of our laws were created by people we wouldn't like to drink a cup of tea with.)

His philosophy of life reminds me of Nietzsche who als rebelled strongly against the Christian teachings. They share an emphatic vision of the assertion of the Will.

I don't think that this carefully created evil reputation of Crowley's contaminates his deck. The Thoth is in many ways a very intellectual work of art. It evokes and sums up centuries of Western esoteric teachings and makes them approachable, even "useful" for people who are not schooled in it. Crowley doesn't hide these secrets behind a harmless-looking narrative veil, they're there to see for everyone in the Thoth. At the same time, the minors of the Thoth remain often very faithful to the compositions of the Tarot de Marseille tradition.

There are so many influences here that are not Crowley. And the touches he added, like the word Thelema on the hilt of the Sword in the Ace of Swords, ore the seal of the beast etc are well-thought out - and you can take them or leave them. Some won't even notice them. If people do and they're repelled by the Thelemic underpinnings of the Thoth because Thelema is a rejection of many Christian principles, then they're free to do so. But looking at the Thelemic principles, well, they're quite compatible with many other world views that celebrate life, change, joy and individual willpower.

It's totally possible to use the Thoth without subscribing to the philosophy and/or spiritual practice of Thelema. I think the overwhelming majority of Thoth users don't.

Then, there is the personality of Frieda Harris. (She was not the daughter of a peer and as far as i know shouldn't be called Lady Frieda Harris - as wife of a baronet, her proper title is Lady Harris. Checked it - true.) She was a wonderful artist, and the correspondence between Crowley and Harris is very interesting to read. She follows his direction but there is a distance to his theoretical writings that she expresses with modesty and humour.
In reference to your books–I suppose you know that most of them would be easier for a Beginner written in Sanscrit & that anyone reading them would go off their heads. Therefore the Wise (“like myself”) take them in snappy bits & only when they are feeling strong.
(The letters also show the many prejudices Crowley had and a tendency to nasty, judgmental gossip - but also a brilliant creative head, and often writing like in shorthand, probably relating to discussions they had when they met.)

Without the great talent and intelligence of Harris, the Thoth deck would look totally different. Her use of projective geometry, her interpretation of the colour scales and the whole concept, are such an important part of the deck, it's impossible to decide who influences us more strongly when we read with the deck, Crowley or Harris.

And then there is the energy and willpower of the reader him/herself. Our intentions, our beliefs.

Crowley's energy is only ONE, albeit a very important, aspect of the Thoth. There is the tarot tradition, esoteric teachings, mythological material, Harris' influence and creativity - it all plays together.

I bought my first Thoth without knowing anything about Crowley and I've been using it for more than 20 years. Its "voice" as a deck (allow me this anthropomorphism) is wise, all-knowing and empowering. Readings are serious, to the point and always bring a new angle that I didn't think about before. The popularity of the Thoth is based on its pure brilliance as a reading deck.

It works for intuitive readings, for readings for other people, for esoteric study, for meditation and scrying and dream work... I didn't try it for shadow work but I'm sure it would be wonderful for that, too.

I think a work of art always transcends its creator. Crowley's carefully crafted reputation as powerful evil man is one thing, his deck another. You can't de-Crowleyfy the Thoth but in my opinion, his best, most serious powers of mind went into the making of the deck.

Try it for yourself. A tarot deck is just a pack of colourful pieces of cardboard, like an art postcard. You don't ask yourself whether Gauguin was a very nice guy when you put up a poster of his artwork on your wall. The question is what the work of art does for you.

For me and many others, the Thoth is a tool that helps us to recognize the patterns of our lives without sugarcoating, without flattery, just a totally honest voice.
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velvetina
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Re: Questions about the Thoth

Post by velvetina »

I too love the Thoth.

I'd find it difficult to choose, if I had to choose a favourite deck, between the Rider-Waite, the Marseilles and the Thoth because I think that they each offer something incredibly valuable, but the Thoth has something else, some intangible je ne sais quoi.

Is it because it comes pre-loaded with rumour? When I bought my first Thoth, it honestly frightened me and I genuinely believed that it intended to. Most of my friends at that time (mid-80's) had tarot decks and most of those decks were Thoths. Everybody had a story.

I decided, within a week, to give mine away. However a wizard (seriously!) told me not to let it get the better of me, so I took it home and began one of the most amazing relationships and journeys of my life.

I used to describe it like this: the Marseille deck is like my sister; there's a deep, familial understanding there. The Rider -Waite is my husband; an arranged marriage, but we love each other dearly, we have children together, we've built a home. But the Thoth is like my teacher/lover (this is a metaphor! I don't have a lover, nor a husband!) - brings a completely different energy; I feel that I often experience something strange, something that shifts my understanding in an unexpected way. And sometimes literally years go by where we don't speak, then we reconnect and its as if we've never been apart!

And I am always, always learning from it. Not just the meaning of the symbols etc, although that's a journey in itself.
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ParsifalsWheel
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Re: Questions about the Thoth

Post by ParsifalsWheel »

Nice summary, Nemia. I've had a thought or two (or a truck-load) about the Thoth, most of which have made it into my blog. Here is an excerpt from one of them that captures the essence of my thinking. I consider the Thoth to be the "gold standard" and the "300-pound gorilla" of the tarot world.

"I don’t know if I’ve convinced anyone with these random examples, but to me the Thoth deck is the “gold standard” that overshadows and subsumes all others within its breathtaking sweep. Assuming we can successfully work our way through Crowley’s intimidating persona and sometimes baffling erudition, it’s the closest thing we have to a metaphysical “particle beam” for atomizing an unwieldy problem into its constituent elements in order to better analyze and understand their interplay. On top of that, it’s a bare-knuckles slugger rather than the charming apology for esoteric profundity that is the RWS. The best single-word descriptor for it is the one I used above: “visceral.”

I just created a "Thoth Material" category on my blog and went back and tagged all of my Thoth posts with it. If you're interested (although I suspect some of you have read them already), just us the "Select Category" drop-down to find them. You might like "Confessions of an Incurable Thothie."

I'm at www.parsifalswheeldivination.com.
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Nemia
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Re: Questions about the Thoth

Post by Nemia »

Thank you! Your blog is such a wonderful resource.
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Tarot_scholar
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Re: Questions about the Thoth

Post by Tarot_scholar »

How funny it is, the different attitudes and associations people have!

I picked up the Thoth in college because a close friend is very much a Crowley nerd. I never got the impression that he was Thelemite or practitioner as such, just -- extremely interested in Crowley and everything around Thelema and the Golden Dawn etc. ("Oh, you read Tarot? You should get the Thoth deck. You have to.")

I love the art. Lady Harris's geometry is phenomenal. Every single card in that deck is a masterpiece. The little excerpts of her correspondence with Crowley that I've read (as it's quoted in books on the Thoth deck) are also charming; I would have liked to read a book on Tarot authored by her. I suspect that despite her professed ignorance of the Tarot, she was at least smart and insightful enough to translate Crowley's extremely esoteric and abstract postulations into art and could have written a "for dummies" explanation if asked.

Controversial opinion time!!

But more and more I approach the Thoth deck from a place that feels rather divorced from Crowley. Not because of the specter of evil, but rather the opposite: so much of the deck is steeped in Judeo-Christian imagery and mythos that I, for personal shadow reasons, find very unappealing and hard to work with.*

Putting aside the religion-specific imagery, the deck's fascination with Egyptian mythology and the Kabbalah gives me pause, considering the context of when it was conceived and developed (i.e. a time of anti-Semitism and British occupation of Egypt). This is no way to disparage anyone who genuinely resonates with those elements of the deck -- I simply mean that, in the absence of knowledge ("so far as I have," I should specify, not as in "so far as conclusively exists"; this isn't something I've exhaustively researched!) surrounding, e.g., who introduced the Golden Dawn OGs to Kabbalah and how; what Jewish mystics have say about the connections between the Tarot and Kabbalistic tradition; Crowley's attitude regarding Egypt, Egyptians, and Egyptian culture, I'd rather just...leave those parts be.

Thus my approach with the Thoth is seeing it as an instrument/conduit of astrology (another field I'm intermediate-level familiar with). I have other thinky-thoughts about the marriage of astrology to Tarot, but at least as the Thoth tarot was conceived, the astrological associations were deliberate and clear, so when using that particular deck I rely a lot on the astrological associations for my interpretations. On a practical level, I tend to only use this deck for seasonal, "big picture" readings. It seems a touch dramatic for daily draws!


(Thank you for the link, Parsifal! Your blog is a wealth of material to explore and it's hard to tear myself away from it.)

*It doesn't bug me in other decks as much,e.g. Judgment or the Lovers in the Waite-Smith deck doesn't provoke the same reaction. Why is this? I don't know.
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Charlie Brown
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Re: Questions about the Thoth

Post by Charlie Brown »

Nemia wrote: 28 Jun 2018, 04:34 Many people wouldn't touch the Thoth with a barge pole (is that the word?) because they're afraid it's evil.
That makes total sense. In the US, at least, the expression is "touch it with a ten-foot pole."
I believe in Crystal Light.
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Joan Marie
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Re: Questions about the Thoth

Post by Joan Marie »

Tarot_scholar wrote: 14 Sep 2018, 13:48 Lady Harris's geometry is phenomenal. Every single card in that deck is a masterpiece. The little excerpts of her correspondence with Crowley that I've read (as it's quoted in books on the Thoth deck) are also charming; I would have liked to read a book on Tarot authored by her.
I totally agree with this.

I only recently got into Thoth and bought the Crowley book, thinking to start with "the source", but it is a bit tough going in places to say the least.

The LWB that comes with the deck includes 2 essays by Lady Harris, although one is suspected to be by Crowley and edited by her. The essays do offer some insight into her thinking, but they are regrettably short. I agree with Tarot_scholar that a book by her would have been a real asset to the study of this deck.
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Nemia
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Re: Questions about the Thoth

Post by Nemia »

The books by Snuffin and DuQuette are very good and give easy access to the deck. I'd start there and not with the Big Al himself. He likes to make things complicated and throw some intricate Hebrew letter lore at you just to make you think you'll never understand it :-)
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Tarot_scholar
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Re: Questions about the Thoth

Post by Tarot_scholar »

Seconding DuQuette! Extremely lucid and clear.
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