This forum is officially closed. It will however remain online and active in a limited form for the time being.
Book and other resources - tips for Thoth newbies and lovers
Forum rules
This forum is for discussions regarding the study and appreciation the the Thoth Tarot.
This forum is for discussions regarding the study and appreciation the the Thoth Tarot.
Book and other resources - tips for Thoth newbies and lovers
I was lucky when I bought my first Thoth - I didn't know what a myth surrounds this deck and that it's thought a difficult deck. I just liked the way it looked and bought it.
For people who'd like to work with the Thoth but dno't know where to start, we can talk here about the books or websites that helped us.
(Isn't it typical for me that I think about books before anything else.... )
I can put the Thoth books that I read into three categories:
- very good - recommended!
Snuffin and Milo DuQuette belong into this category, and of course also Crowley's own writings. Don't start with them, though!
Snuffin and even ore so Milo DuQuette make the Thoth really transparent and understandable.
I'll write more about each later if you want to know which is better. Have to dig into the books again before I say more
- okay but not my first choice
Hajo Banzhaf's book about the Thoth is solid and based on Crowley but it's also dry reading, and contains additional material for each card that is Banzhaf's own. Reading it, you never know whether the places of power or associations from literature or music are Crowley's or Banzhaf's. I found that after I understood more about the Thoth, I realized that Banzhaf actually contained a lot of this information - but in a form that made it difficult for me to absorb it.
Much of the book is card meanings, and he gives less attention to the structure behind the deck.
I always find that once you understand the esoteric theory behind the Thoth, it's possible to intuit the cards by looking at them and absorbing their message. That's why I think Thoth books that contain mainly card meanings put the emphasis on the wrong point.
Henry Ho's books is weird. He is a very young guy and goes off to rant about all kind of things that annoy him, and he hardly hides his misogyny. But some of his explanations are good. I disliked his style so much that I returned my Kindle version of his book but I remember that parts of it were good.
If you have Snuffin and/or DuQuette, you don't really need Banzhaf or Ho. If you can't get your hand on either, then try Banzhaf.
- superfluous - don't touch
Angeles Arrien wrote a book of Jungian associations about the Thoth that has made huge (negative) waves in the tarot world. It seems that she was good teacher, and her famous pupil Mary K. Greer is able to explain what Arrien wanted to do with the book. She was not interested in Crowley's own thoughts about the deck but in her own. Fair enough. Her problem is that imho most of these ideas are simple, trivial and don't really add up to much when you want to interpret the cards.
Even worse is Ziegler. He copies Arrien's ideas and his whole book is a collection of cliches. There are no remnants of the original ideas that form the backbone of the deck.
And about reading Crowley himself: don't do that to yourself before you know the Thoth. First, read other books, work with the deck, start to build your own relationship with the deck. Then, read Crowley. Keep in mind that he doesn't write in order to make you understand. He writes to make it difficult. (He would have roasted Arrien and Ziegler for making his deck SO shallow and slick). He expects you to know alchemy, Latin, Greek, Hebrew, astrology, kabbalah and gematria (numerical values of Hebrew letters) - you didn't learn all that at school? Oh well...
If you need a nice, short, concise card meaning with all the esoteric information, try Corax. The site gives you all the basic information you need to understand the card in the context of your reading. That's so much better than Ziegler's three pages of bla bla!
I'll add links later...
For people who'd like to work with the Thoth but dno't know where to start, we can talk here about the books or websites that helped us.
(Isn't it typical for me that I think about books before anything else.... )
I can put the Thoth books that I read into three categories:
- very good - recommended!
Snuffin and Milo DuQuette belong into this category, and of course also Crowley's own writings. Don't start with them, though!
Snuffin and even ore so Milo DuQuette make the Thoth really transparent and understandable.
I'll write more about each later if you want to know which is better. Have to dig into the books again before I say more
- okay but not my first choice
Hajo Banzhaf's book about the Thoth is solid and based on Crowley but it's also dry reading, and contains additional material for each card that is Banzhaf's own. Reading it, you never know whether the places of power or associations from literature or music are Crowley's or Banzhaf's. I found that after I understood more about the Thoth, I realized that Banzhaf actually contained a lot of this information - but in a form that made it difficult for me to absorb it.
Much of the book is card meanings, and he gives less attention to the structure behind the deck.
I always find that once you understand the esoteric theory behind the Thoth, it's possible to intuit the cards by looking at them and absorbing their message. That's why I think Thoth books that contain mainly card meanings put the emphasis on the wrong point.
Henry Ho's books is weird. He is a very young guy and goes off to rant about all kind of things that annoy him, and he hardly hides his misogyny. But some of his explanations are good. I disliked his style so much that I returned my Kindle version of his book but I remember that parts of it were good.
If you have Snuffin and/or DuQuette, you don't really need Banzhaf or Ho. If you can't get your hand on either, then try Banzhaf.
- superfluous - don't touch
Angeles Arrien wrote a book of Jungian associations about the Thoth that has made huge (negative) waves in the tarot world. It seems that she was good teacher, and her famous pupil Mary K. Greer is able to explain what Arrien wanted to do with the book. She was not interested in Crowley's own thoughts about the deck but in her own. Fair enough. Her problem is that imho most of these ideas are simple, trivial and don't really add up to much when you want to interpret the cards.
Even worse is Ziegler. He copies Arrien's ideas and his whole book is a collection of cliches. There are no remnants of the original ideas that form the backbone of the deck.
And about reading Crowley himself: don't do that to yourself before you know the Thoth. First, read other books, work with the deck, start to build your own relationship with the deck. Then, read Crowley. Keep in mind that he doesn't write in order to make you understand. He writes to make it difficult. (He would have roasted Arrien and Ziegler for making his deck SO shallow and slick). He expects you to know alchemy, Latin, Greek, Hebrew, astrology, kabbalah and gematria (numerical values of Hebrew letters) - you didn't learn all that at school? Oh well...
If you need a nice, short, concise card meaning with all the esoteric information, try Corax. The site gives you all the basic information you need to understand the card in the context of your reading. That's so much better than Ziegler's three pages of bla bla!
I'll add links later...
- Joan Marie
- Forum Designer
- Sage
- Posts: 5308
- Joined: 22 Apr 2018, 21:52
Re: Book and other resources - tips for Thoth newbies and lovers
This is a lucky coincidence for me because I actually just ordered my first Thoth deck a couple of days ago. I just suddenly had the feeling that I needed it now.
I bought the Crowley book, "Book of Thoth" to go with it. That seemed like a logical place to start but I don't know really.
I've read other books by Crowley (many years ago) and liked his writing style.
I bought the Crowley book, "Book of Thoth" to go with it. That seemed like a logical place to start but I don't know really.
I've read other books by Crowley (many years ago) and liked his writing style.
Button Soup Tarot, Star & Crown Oracle available @: Rabbit's Moon Tarot
Re: Book and other resources - tips for Thoth newbies and lovers
I like his writing style, too, but I think his book is a bit of a tall order for a beginner. Start discussing the Naples arrangement before he starts with the card meanigns You're not a beginner so it won't be difficult.
I just want people to feel absolutely okay with themselves if they say The Book of Thoth is too difficult for them. (The text I linked to is not a very good version - too many typos or misreadings, but it gives a good first impression of Crowley's style.)
I just want people to feel absolutely okay with themselves if they say The Book of Thoth is too difficult for them. (The text I linked to is not a very good version - too many typos or misreadings, but it gives a good first impression of Crowley's style.)
Re: Book and other resources - tips for Thoth newbies and lovers
The thing is that I started with the accompanying Little White Book and then bought 'The Book of Thoth' after. There wasn't any alternative.
And to be honest, for me, the LWB was enough to get me up and running. Especially as it contains Frieda Harris's ideas. They really do make it easier.
So I wouldn't worry about starting with the original text; being able to buy Lon Milo Duquette's extremely helpful book is great, and the one I'd suggest BUT you can go Old School! Hahaha!
As for Angeles Arrien - well I read her book when it came out and loved it! It never occurred to me that I wasn't supposed to! Now I am honestly not sure what to think (I remember the long and enthusiastic 'discussions' over at AT :/ ) and I didn't exactly sit on the fence, I think that I sided with the Crowleyites. However my dear friend and colleague is firmly in the Arrien camp and only uses the Thoth and she gives excellent readings!
And to be honest, for me, the LWB was enough to get me up and running. Especially as it contains Frieda Harris's ideas. They really do make it easier.
So I wouldn't worry about starting with the original text; being able to buy Lon Milo Duquette's extremely helpful book is great, and the one I'd suggest BUT you can go Old School! Hahaha!
As for Angeles Arrien - well I read her book when it came out and loved it! It never occurred to me that I wasn't supposed to! Now I am honestly not sure what to think (I remember the long and enthusiastic 'discussions' over at AT :/ ) and I didn't exactly sit on the fence, I think that I sided with the Crowleyites. However my dear friend and colleague is firmly in the Arrien camp and only uses the Thoth and she gives excellent readings!
Re: Book and other resources - tips for Thoth newbies and lovers
There is no tarot police, and if you like the Arrien book, why not? I didn't like it when I read it first, and when I found the discussions on AT, they made sense to me. But that's only ONE opinion. I'll have to take a second look at my copy to make sure I didn't change my opinion, maybe I find something in it now?
Totally forgot the LWBs that come with the Thoth - oh yes, they're actually good!
And a big secret: it's possible to read with the Thoth just like that. The art is good enough for purely intuitive readings. The art is brilliant and it really hooks into the unconscious.
It's not exactly abstract, not even in the non-figurative minors, but it's not narrative. The colours, composition, shapes, symbols - if you let just your eyes and mind react to them, the Thoth works very well. That's why i call it an ideal learning deck - it just calls you further and further, and it can be approached at every level.
Totally forgot the LWBs that come with the Thoth - oh yes, they're actually good!
And a big secret: it's possible to read with the Thoth just like that. The art is good enough for purely intuitive readings. The art is brilliant and it really hooks into the unconscious.
It's not exactly abstract, not even in the non-figurative minors, but it's not narrative. The colours, composition, shapes, symbols - if you let just your eyes and mind react to them, the Thoth works very well. That's why i call it an ideal learning deck - it just calls you further and further, and it can be approached at every level.
Re: Book and other resources - tips for Thoth newbies and lovers
Nemia, I completely agree - no Tarot Police!
I remember when I read Angeles Arrien thinking "oh a new interpretation", but I'd already come up with my own interpretations and through conversations with other friends who used Thoth, there was diversity in how one used the deck; in fact my memory is that to develop a unique relationship was what was encouraged: you could quote Crowley, but ideally you'd add your own two-pennorth!
I'd forgotton about those amazing Corax pages! Another valuable resource!
I remember when I read Angeles Arrien thinking "oh a new interpretation", but I'd already come up with my own interpretations and through conversations with other friends who used Thoth, there was diversity in how one used the deck; in fact my memory is that to develop a unique relationship was what was encouraged: you could quote Crowley, but ideally you'd add your own two-pennorth!
I'd forgotton about those amazing Corax pages! Another valuable resource!
Re: Book and other resources - tips for Thoth newbies and lovers
I've found the following to be great resources for exploring and understanding in depth the symbology and mysticism contained in the Thoth - I hope it's okay to put the links:
http://www.esotericmeanings.com/thoth-t ... tutorials/ - very good for undersanding the symbology. Minor arcana also available from links on the site
Book T from the Golden Dawn(pdf) - http://www.hermetics.org/pdf/gd/t.pdf - this contains the meanings of the the cards
Liber Thoth (pdf) http://www.thelema.org/publications/books/LiberT.pdf - described as an 'evolution' of Book T above, this looks at the Qabalistic and symbological meanings from the Golden Dawn teachings.
http://www.esotericmeanings.com/thoth-t ... tutorials/ - very good for undersanding the symbology. Minor arcana also available from links on the site
Book T from the Golden Dawn(pdf) - http://www.hermetics.org/pdf/gd/t.pdf - this contains the meanings of the the cards
Liber Thoth (pdf) http://www.thelema.org/publications/books/LiberT.pdf - described as an 'evolution' of Book T above, this looks at the Qabalistic and symbological meanings from the Golden Dawn teachings.
My Tarot Journey https://tarotjourneying.blogspot.com/
Re: Book and other resources - tips for Thoth newbies and lovers
One can get a good copy of Crowley's Book of Thoth here.
Start strong
End stronger
End stronger
Re: Book and other resources - tips for Thoth newbies and lovers
Just an hour ago, Susie Chang and Mel Meleen released the final card in their densely informative Fortune's Wheelhouse series. Their discussions tend to be esoteric and can be applied to the Thoth so I included the link here. I haven't listened to the last few broadcasts since I've been quite busy, but I've always looked out for them. They may be downloaded for free.
It feels like the end of an era. I'm looking forward to devouring their podcasts soon, and I'm planning to start from the very beginning. Good times.
It feels like the end of an era. I'm looking forward to devouring their podcasts soon, and I'm planning to start from the very beginning. Good times.
Start strong
End stronger
End stronger
- Joan Marie
- Forum Designer
- Sage
- Posts: 5308
- Joined: 22 Apr 2018, 21:52
Re: Book and other resources - tips for Thoth newbies and lovers
I just found this podcast series, Fortune's Wheelhouse, a few days ago for the first time. It's really something special. I can't wait to really dig into it.Amoroso wrote: โ24 Jan 2019, 01:04 Just an hour ago, Susie Chang and Mel Meleen released the final card in their densely informative Fortune's Wheelhouse series.
It feels like the end of an era.
It's the beginning of an era for me.
Side note: It constantly takes my breath away just how much work people produce regarding Tarot. And really good work. Podcasts, youtube channels, blogs, books, etc etc etc. It's just astonishing.
Button Soup Tarot, Star & Crown Oracle available @: Rabbit's Moon Tarot
Re: Book and other resources - tips for Thoth newbies and lovers
What I also noticed was that so many of the good stuff are free. Along with the podcast I just mentioned, there are a lot of deeply knowledgeable Tarotists in YouTube (like Paul Hughes-Barlow and David of Thoth Tarot Tutorials, among others) that I fully admire and respect. They provide Grade A learning material at absolutely no cost, simply for love of the Art. Even by just browsing, I learn a lot from free forums like this one, the Cult of Tarot Forums. It really is an embarrassment of riches, and I'm not complaining. What a time to be alive!Joan Marie wrote: โ24 Jan 2019, 08:19 Side note: It constantly takes my breath away just how much work people produce regarding Tarot. And really good work. Podcasts, youtube channels, blogs, books, etc etc etc. It's just astonishing.
Only thing is, there are also some rather murky sites floating around, so one also needs to have the basic knowledge and discernment to separate the wheat from the chaff.
Start strong
End stronger
End stronger
- Joan Marie
- Forum Designer
- Sage
- Posts: 5308
- Joined: 22 Apr 2018, 21:52
Re: Book and other resources - tips for Thoth newbies and lovers
That is very true, however many of these people with blogs and podcasts etc., do have things for sale, decks, courses, all kinds of stuff. So it is good to take note of that. If you like their free stuff, you will probably also like the stuff they sell.
Also, in some cases sites have connections to advertisers either directly as sponsors or indirectly as pop ups on screen, which although slightly annoying can be helping to support the contributor's efforts.
And I agree with you, what a time to be alive. Everyone has the chance to have their own TV show (youtube), their own radio show (podcast) open a store, start a community (what is a forum if not a village or a city?). There are so many possibilities. And all of it there for us to take part in and enjoy.
Button Soup Tarot, Star & Crown Oracle available @: Rabbit's Moon Tarot
Re: Book and other resources - tips for Thoth newbies and lovers
I will add a recommendation for Gerald Suster's The Truth about the Tarot, a comprehensive, incisive and witty book.
-
- Seer
- Posts: 73
- Joined: 29 Nov 2019, 13:01
Re: Book and other resources - tips for Thoth newbies and lovers
ETA_ I just saw your same recommendation _R_! Great minds think alike?
There is a little book by Gerald Suster 'The Truth About the Tarot' - he is a great Thoth admirer. It is a general tarot book but the interpretations have some good Thoth nuggets. He has some rather predictable views about women, feminists, the New Age etc, but I don't particularly care as I just skip those or read with a few cellars of salt.
He writes with a lot of verve... the cynicism is rather refreshing. He also invented an interesting group game using a deck and large-scale Kabbalistic Tree of Life- it leaves each player with a pile of cards which can be used for divination. It was intended to help people learn bnoth the deck and the Kabbala. There is also sound general advice for developing reading skills. He also mentions the I Ching and elements of Tarot history and includes a lot of interesting Crowley quotes.
Where he is particularly strong is Majors interpretations. A lot of the advice is biting and wise and contains ideas I haven't seen anywhere else, with more verve than usual. It describes the interpretation rather than tedious repetitious explanations of the images you are looking at. Frankly it is unusual to see any Majors interpretations posessing a sense of humour, so that alone makes it worth a look.
There is a little book by Gerald Suster 'The Truth About the Tarot' - he is a great Thoth admirer. It is a general tarot book but the interpretations have some good Thoth nuggets. He has some rather predictable views about women, feminists, the New Age etc, but I don't particularly care as I just skip those or read with a few cellars of salt.
He writes with a lot of verve... the cynicism is rather refreshing. He also invented an interesting group game using a deck and large-scale Kabbalistic Tree of Life- it leaves each player with a pile of cards which can be used for divination. It was intended to help people learn bnoth the deck and the Kabbala. There is also sound general advice for developing reading skills. He also mentions the I Ching and elements of Tarot history and includes a lot of interesting Crowley quotes.
Where he is particularly strong is Majors interpretations. A lot of the advice is biting and wise and contains ideas I haven't seen anywhere else, with more verve than usual. It describes the interpretation rather than tedious repetitious explanations of the images you are looking at. Frankly it is unusual to see any Majors interpretations posessing a sense of humour, so that alone makes it worth a look.
-
- Seer
- Posts: 26
- Joined: 31 May 2022, 06:35
Re: Book and other resources - tips for Thoth newbies and lovers
so useful tips
thanks for posting these tips
thanks for posting these tips