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Tarot de Paris - Editions SIVILIXI

Discussions on the history, symbolism and how to read with the The Sola-Busca, Etteilla, Minchiate, Visconti-Sforza, and other decks from the early days of cartomancy. (TdM has it's own forum)
Papageno
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Tarot de Paris - Editions SIVILIXI

Post by Papageno »

Tarot de Paris early - mid 1600’s
Bibliothèque nationale de France, Paris 
André Dimanche ed. Distribution: Editions SIVILIXI, France
Published by Grimaud, 1985

Maybe this should have been posted in the Marseille thread, I couldn't decide, it's a quirky deck.....and seriously profound.

It's quickly becoming one of my all-time favorite decks. The overall quality of this reproduction is excellent.
The vibrancy and details are amazing. The images are very dynamic, and the facial expressions are uncanny.
I'll be posting pictures for the next few days, here's a few to start with.

Tarot de Paris .jpg
Tarot de Paris side.jpg
Tarot de Paris title card .jpg
Tarot de Paris 0.jpg
Tarot de Paris 1.jpg
Tarot de Paris 2.jpg
Attachments
Tarot de Paris 3.jpg
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JayBee
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Re: Tarot de Paris - Editions SIVILIXI

Post by JayBee »

Will you be expounding on the profundity? I bought this deck a number of years ago, but I haven't spent time with it. You've certainly piqued my interest.
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Re: Tarot de Paris - Editions SIVILIXI

Post by Papageno »

JayBee wrote: 15 Dec 2020, 17:42 Will you be expounding on the profundity? I bought this deck a number of years ago, but I haven't spent time with it. You've certainly piqued my interest.
As with all art, assessment is purely subjective, the culmination of effort that went into creating the deck speaks well enough for itself. I'm not an art historian nor am I a Ross Caldwell or Thierry DePaulis, they're amongst the very few who are qualified to provide instruction......but even the personal preferences of an academician is emotional and subjective, although better tempered by scholarship.

I'll only post images highlighting certain details, with or without comment......very often, less is more, and the lack of commentary
makes people.....think.

I will say, however, that ignoring decks on the shelf is a pitfall of many collectors, I am certainly guilty of that.
Collecting has a way of becoming an exercise in simply accumulating.....a terrible shame IMHO.

I admire Nemia's Tarot Calendar posts, although I haven't the slightest idea of what that's all about, star gazing, serious study of the celestial bodies and lunar cycles aren't my thing......BUT she loves her decks and she knows them intimately.....and she puts them to very good use.....very laudable.

If I've succeeded in piquing your interest, then I'm glad, although this thread is only meant to share and provide enjoyment, not to instruct.
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Papageno
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Re: Tarot de Paris - Editions SIVILIXI

Post by Papageno »

This was (is) obviously a very high quality deck as evidenced by the fine details that you can see in Le Fous and other cards.

Overall, the depictions are very powerful and, IMHO reflect a politically charged atmosphere of "life at Court"....the intrigues of Church and State.

The Fool in this case is almost menacing, an image of a real King's Fool.....one who could speak what other's dared not.....The Jester would have been very clever and decidedly observant, quietly taking everything in.

The expressions on both faces are beautifully detailed and solemn.....they shown concern.
Observe how the eyes of the Fool are keenly focused on the face of the jesters rod/wand....which stares back with equal intensity.

His robes are elegant, not ragged, befitting the Jester of a Royal Court............this is not Misero of the Mantegna.
The back of the Fool's hood reminds me very much of a face. I can see the profile of an ear, a nose, eyes, eye brow and a chin with a tassel dangling at the end of it, suggesting a beard.

The two faces of the Fool is a fitting metaphor for the sinister machinations of Court life.

As you know, The Fool in most traditional TdM is placed last after Le Monde, however, I find it very suitable in this case to have Le Fou draw open the curtain of political intrigue.
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Papageno
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Re: Tarot de Paris - Editions SIVILIXI

Post by Papageno »

In the Bateleur card we see a man with ornamentation on his cap that clearly resembles donkey's ears....perhaps a commoner who is taken in by the conjurers slight-of-hand.

At the foot of the table we see what appears to be a monkey playing with a dog.
The monkey at that time, was an exotic pet brought over from the New World, and we see this creature in several cards.

We see two infants (?) on either side of the foot of Papesse, the mysteries of the Divine Feminine and fecundity?
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Re: Tarot de Paris - Editions SIVILIXI

Post by Papageno »

The very stately warrior King, the details of the leg armor and straps are impressive.

Le Pape is most revealing and intriguing with the Sphinx and a small pyramid nestled on a platform at the base of his throne.

The image of VI - Lamoureus is almost prurient in it's animated depiction of the Lovers under the boughs of the Tree of Knowledge.


Tarot de Paris 4.jpg

Tarot de Paris 5.jpg

Tarot de Paris 6.jpg
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Scanner
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Re: Tarot de Paris - Editions SIVILIXI

Post by Scanner »

Wow!
I would like to see this deck reproduced as facsimile by Ben Dov.
But that's not gonna happen :oops: :oops: :oops:
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Re: Tarot de Paris - Editions SIVILIXI

Post by Papageno »

Card 7 - Le Chariot
Apollo in his chariot driven by sacred Swans.....exquisite.

Card 8 - Justice
with a Janus-like head, now that's profound....I mean seriously, how often do you see this depiction of Justice?

Card 9 - the Hermit
with his prayer beads and walking stick.
Is he ringing a bell as a call to prayer or does the image also suggest a broader message for the viewer?
His attire suggests he's an Abbott or a Church elder of even higher rank, not just a simple monk. A monastery is in the background.
His feet are not bare. Clearly, there are what appear to be buttons on his shoes or boots.

Tarot de Paris 7.jpg

Tarot de Paris 8.jpg

Tarot de Paris 9.jpg
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Papageno
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Re: Tarot de Paris - Editions SIVILIXI

Post by Papageno »

I'm posting a larger image of the Jester/Fool card because it is so compelling, and you can also judge for yourselves the veracity of my
observations, which I'm reiterating:

The expressions on both faces are beautifully detailed and solemn.....they shown concern.
Observe how the eyes of the Fool are keenly focused on the face of the jesters rod/wand....which stares back with equal intensity.

His robes are elegant, not ragged, befitting the Jester of a Royal Court............this is not Misero of the Mantegna.
The back of the Fool's hood reminds me very much of a face. I can see the profile of an ear, a nose, eyes, eye brow and a chin with a tassel dangling at the end of it, suggesting a beard.

The two faces of the Fool is a fitting metaphor for the sinister machinations of Court life.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also.......there appears to what might possibly be a fur slung over the right shoulder of the Fool.
I can perceive what might be the outline of an animals face, eyes and paws.

Tarot de Paris Fool.jpg
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Papageno
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Re: Tarot de Paris - Editions SIVILIXI

Post by Papageno »

X La Roue de Fortune is pretty straightforward, decidedly male, warlike imagery and energy being depicted here.

XI Force is quite impressive.
The details of the facial expression exudes determination, and the billowing of her robes adds to the sense of dynamism and movement, which compliments the woman's physical stance as she struggles to subdue the lion.
There's nothing passive about this depiction of Fortitude/Strength.
I love the details of her attire and braided hair.....the puffed sleeves and the structure of her leather sandals.

XII Le Pendu is fairly standard, although here we see a man-made scaffold as opposed to someone being suspended between two trees, and I like the attempt to show the wood grain on the right-hand post.

XIII La Mort
This might actually be the only Death card that I actually find somewhat alarming and even frightening....it's the head, which is
rounder and anatomically less like an actual skull. It's more like a hideous Death "mask".
Also, observe the hands and feet, they're decidedly full and flesh toned, not skeletal.

In fact, if you look closely, the actual skeletal elements of the overall anatomy are rather subdued,
and there appear to actual leggings rather than bones.

The other night I was watching the first few episodes of the "The Spanish Princess" on Amazon, a highly spirited and entertaining
potboiler about Catherine of Aragon prior to her marriage to Henry VIII.
Naturally they address the famous (or infamous) debate about whether or not her marriage to Henry's brother Arthur was actually consummated.
There's an amusing scene wherein Henry refers to Arthur as his "cadaverous brother".

While studying this card, that scene came to mind, or more specifically the description "cadaverous"
Actually, the image in this card lies somewhere between cadaverous and skeletal......regardless, I think "ghastly" is a very apt description.

Tarot de Paris 10.jpg

Tarot de Paris 11.jpg

Tarot de Paris 12.jpg

Tarot de Paris 13.jpg
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Papageno
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Re: Tarot de Paris - Editions SIVILIXI

Post by Papageno »

XIV - Temperance, nothing really special going on here.

XV - ooooooo spooky, The Devil, everybody's all-time favorite :twisted:
Here we have a comparison of three versions of Le Diable

XVI - La Foudre, another fan favorite of the tarot world.....or maybe it's The Tower, but I'm so tired of The Tower.
Enough of The Tower already.....although I will admit there ARE some very imaginative depictions.
Here's another comparison chart of La Foudre, although I apologize for the diminutive size of the Vandenborre.
I don't own that deck, so just grabbed it.....very quickly off the internet.

I'm especially intrigued by this (Tarot de Paris) version of La Foudre and you really have to take your time
studying and refocusing when you see this card.
Amongst other details, I was finally able to discern the Hell Mouth creature, the flaming eyes and eyebrow, large fangs and a demonic figure riding on it's beak or snout.
You'll also notice another demon banging a drum of war and destruction.


Tarot de Paris 14.jpg

Le Diable Comparsion.jpg

La Foudre Comparisons.jpg
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Re: Tarot de Paris - Editions SIVILIXI

Post by KoyDeli »

Always little details to notice on this deck - I love the detail of the crupper* on the Knight of Swords and the little Lion's [?] head to which it is attached to the saddle:
[Jeu_de_tarot_parisien_anonyme_[...]_btv1b105109624.jpg





*Crupper: a leather strap fastened to the saddle and looping under the tail of a horse to prevent the harness from slipping forward.
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Re: Tarot de Paris - Editions SIVILIXI

Post by Papageno »

KoyDeli wrote: 18 Dec 2020, 10:41 Always little details to notice on this deck - I love the detail of the crupper* on the Knight of Swords and the little Lion's [?] head to which it is attached to the saddle:

*Crupper: a leather strap fastened to the saddle and looping under the tail of a horse to prevent the harness from slipping forward.
Thank you very much for that post....those are details that would have completely gone unnoticed by me.
I haven't finished posting the Majors yet and there's still the rest of the Court cards and pips......but please feel free to provide any and all images and information you wish to include, I always value your input :D
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Re: Tarot de Paris - Editions SIVILIXI

Post by Papageno »

XVII Lestoille - The Star

XVIII La Lune - Moon
Both decks are centuries apart and depict a nearly identical troubadour scene.
One might be tempted to grasp at the obvious Romeo and Juliet cliche (where is my barf bag),
however........the more accurate description would be underscored by Verdi's opera "Il Trovatore".

XIX - Soleil - Sun
In this card we observe what appears to be a depiction of a noble woman attending to her morning toilette
with a monkey holding a mirror, another example of the aristocratic fascination with exotic pets and other discoveries brought
over from the "new world".


Tarot de Paris - J. Vieville Star comparison.jpg


La Lune Comparison.jpg

Tarot de Paris 19.jpg
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Re: Tarot de Paris - Editions SIVILIXI

Post by Papageno »

XX - Le Jugement
not one of the more compelling cards of this deck, the artistry falls short by comparison to it's companions,
although the wings are very nice.

XXI - Le Monde
Here again we see an image rife with symbols of political ambition.
The Sovereign's Orb is obvious, as are the four winds and the sailing mast.
The trade winds blow East - West, but the implication seems sound enough, especially since we can see
tiny images of a ship in the lower half of the orb and the Sun and Moon occupying the corners of the orb.


Tarot de Paris 20.jpg

Tarot de Paris 21.jpg
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Papageno
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Re: Tarot de Paris - Editions SIVILIXI

Post by Papageno »

Broadswords vs Scimitars

The Janus headed Justice wields a broadsword.

The Valet in the suit of Swords, prominently displays a broadsword.

Chevalier, Queen, King and Ace and related pip cards depict scimitars.

These differences come across as inconsistencies, yet the overall body of work does not suggest anything arbitrary or frivolous.
This is obviously a European deck, and as with all other standard TdM decks, broadswords or longswords are always featured.
If there are other TdM decks that depict scimitars, the type of blade favored by Eastern and Middle Eastern cultures, I would like to know about it, It would be very enlightening.

Might this have been a gesture, a way of honoring the memory of Louis IX of France who led the 7th and 8th crusades?

TdParisSwords.jpg


TdParisSwords2.jpg

TdParisSwords3.jpg

TdParisSwords4.jpg

TdParisSwords5.jpg

TdParisSwords6.jpg
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Papageno
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Re: Tarot de Paris - Editions SIVILIXI

Post by Papageno »

Scanner wrote: 16 Dec 2020, 10:52 Wow!
I would like to see this deck reproduced as facsimile by Ben Dov.
But that's not gonna happen :oops: :oops: :oops:
I have the redrawn (mass market, not hand stenciled) facsimile of the Vieville Majors by Flornoy and I like them......but I'm not crazy in love with them either.

Of course, it's purely a matter of personal taste, but I much prefer the originals with all their flaws and imperfections.
I realize that even the originals are usually, if not always touched-up and enhanced to some degree....it's the reality of making any
product marketable.

I think it also depends on the particular deck the publisher/artist decides to work with.
Some decks may be more suitable for photo manipulation and/or outright redrawing than others.

I really can't imagine the Tarot de Paris being extensively redrawn, it would be too anemic for me.
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Re: Tarot de Paris - Editions SIVILIXI: Temperance

Post by Maskelyne »

temperancia.png
The Tarot de Paris Temperance was reproduced in 1871 (?) by Edward Burne-Jones. That same image was used by Robert Place in his Tarot of the Sevenfold Mystery. He explains it as:
She is both a tree, representing the body, and a fire, representing passion. She quenches the fire with water so that it does not devour the tree, but she cannot succeed in extinguishing the fire because this is also a part of her.
I wonder if Burne-Jones saw the card in the BNF or if he and the anonymous Parisian both copied some earlier allegory.
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Re: Tarot de Paris - Editions SIVILIXI: le Monde

Post by Maskelyne »

Once again, the Vandenborre image is very similar, though minus the curtain rod.
VDBlaMonde.png
The TdP leMonde evokes Carol Burnett's take on Scarlet O'Hara's curtain dress:
curtain dress.png
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Re: Tarot de Paris - Editions SIVILIXI

Post by Papageno »

The Carol Burnett Show......an hysterical classic...... :lol: .......although shower curtains actually came to mind while I contemplated the Tarot de Paris - Le Monde card.


Thanks for providing details about Temperance:

"The Tarot de Paris Temperance was reproduced in 1871 (?) by Edward Burne-Jones. That same image was used by Robert Place in his Tarot of the Sevenfold Mystery."

speaking of dates......I've just emailed Patrick Coq in an effort to determine exactly when the Tarot de Paris was included in the collection of the Bibliothèque nationale de France, although I have no idea if he will be forthcoming.

This was prompted by my earlier post regarding the striking similarities of the "troubadour" imagery in the Moon cards of both
the Tarot de Paris and the Swiss 1JJ Tarot.

according to Wiki:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_1JJ ... il%201860.

"The first version was produced between 1831 and 1838 in the card factory of Johann Georg Rauch. It was the first tarot pack made by the factory and was unexpectedly successful in the American market. The first version was manufactured, unaltered, by his successor, Johannes Müller in Diessenhofen until 1860."

Rausch and Müller must have been influenced by The Tarot de Paris housed at the Bibliothèque nationale, so idle curiosity prompts me to wonder exactly how long the museum has held this in their collection.

If anybody has the answer, feel free to provide.
Inquiring minds and all that good stuff :D
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Re: Tarot de Paris - Editions SIVILIXI

Post by KoyDeli »

Papageno wrote: 20 Dec 2020, 21:37
speaking of dates......I've just emailed Patrick Coq in an effort to determine exactly when the Tarot de Paris was included in the collection of the Bibliothèque nationale de France, although I have no idea if he will be forthcoming.

The "tarot parisien anonyme", along with the Noblet, Vieville and "Charles VI', according to the BnF and accepted by most playing-card historians, was probably part of the François Roger de Gaignières collection, which was bought from him for the King's Royal Library in 1711.

The stamp "B.R" stands for the Bibliotheque Royale [or du Roi, of the KIng], the Royal Library, the Bibliotheque du Roi was declared to be national property after the revolution and renamed Bibliothèque Nationale in 1792, its size was also greatly increased at the time as the libraries seized from aristocrats were added to it.
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Re: Tarot de Paris - Editions SIVILIXI

Post by KoyDeli »

Papageno wrote: 16 Dec 2020, 00:12 As you know, The Fool in most traditional TdM is placed last after Le Monde...,
?? I'm not sure about this - it is certainly part of the 19th century French Esoteric tradition to place the Fool in the penultimate or last place. Prior to that the Fool's position is much more vague. Probably a little more accurate to say in pre-esoteric school tradition he had not position, there being 21 trumps and the fool 21+0, or as the Italian saying has it, the Fool of the Tarot is here, there and everywhere. In Italian Tarocchi Appropriati, which concern patterns other than the TdM - he was usually placed last, below the juggler [Tarocchi Appropriati usually listed the cards in reverse order, highest to lowest]. One pattern in which the Fool was placed highest prior to the esoteric schools, and numbered as such, was the Rouen/Bruxelle pattern, in which the Fool is highest Trump and numbered XXII. This occurred at the same time as a new tarot game developed in Switzerland and some regions of Germany in the early 18th century in which the Fool was played as highest trump and not as an excuse - and the Belgian pattern probably rose to cater to that market [possibly that was the reason they called them Swiss Cards?]

Papageno wrote: 16 Dec 2020, 00:38
At the foot of the table we see what appears to be a monkey playing with a dog.
The monkey at that time, was an exotic pet brought over from the New World, and we see this creature in several cards.
Wandering jugglers are recorded as travelling with dogs, monkeys, dancing bears and such like from the 15th century at least, in places such as Italy, France and England. Monkeys too can be found portrayed earlier in medieval art, they are quite frequent as marginalia in medieval manuscripts. Juggler with monkey also appears in some other decks and sheets.

The Cary-Yale sheet juggler also has a monkey [on his back in this case] - he also wears a hat somewhat similar to the TdPs [sort of Fez shaped].

Cup and Ball player with Monkey from Children of the Moon print:
Attachments
ChildrenMoonPrint.png
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Re: Tarot de Paris - Editions SIVILIXI

Post by KoyDeli »

The dupe on the left of the Juggler looks to me quite like the lover of Trump VI, and the lady in Trump VI quite like the Lady of Trump XI :
TdP1-6-11.png
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Re: Tarot de Paris - Editions SIVILIXI

Post by KoyDeli »

Papageno wrote: 17 Dec 2020, 10:27
XI Force is quite impressive.
The details of the facial expression exudes determination, and the billowing of her robes adds to the sense of dynamism and movement, which compliments the woman's physical stance as she struggles to subdue the lion.
There's nothing passive about this depiction of Fortitude/Strength.
I love the details of her attire and braided hair.....the puffed sleeves and the structure of her leather sandals.
Note too that Force has both Lion AND Broken Pillar - two of her common emblems.
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Re: Tarot de Paris - Editions SIVILIXI

Post by KoyDeli »

KoyDeli wrote: 21 Dec 2020, 17:04
Wandering jugglers are recorded as travelling with dogs, monkeys, dancing bears and such like from the 15th century at least, in places such as Italy, France and England. Monkeys too can be found portrayed earlier in medieval art, they are quite frequent as marginalia in medieval manuscripts. Juggler with monkey also appears in some other decks and sheets.

The Cary-Yale sheet juggler also has a monkey [on his back in this case] - he also wears a hat somewhat similar to the TdPs [sort of Fez shaped].

Cup and Ball player with Monkey from Children of the Moon print:
From one of the old German texts On The Children of the Moon:

All heavenly influence through me
Must go, now strong, now weak,
Now fast, now slow. Headstrong,
Heedless, and half-wild, if he won’t be
Led , he’s Luna’s child. Pale round face
And brown eyes, cruel teeth, snub-nosed,
And never wise. Easily angered, but soon
Consoled, short lazy, jealous, greedy for
Gold. Thinkers and jugglers and students
Who roam, millers, bird catchers, those
Never at home. If you swim or fish or sail,
As luna’s child you cannot fail.

Translated from the German by Marianne Hansen


Here is another example from a Children of the Planets print, LUNA by the Master of the Housebook c.1475/85. The bateleur is shown pulling teeth, behind him is the banner on the shed, which people are paying to go into to watch the acrobatic & sword swallowing show [as displayed on the banner], dog on the ground, and monkey on the shoulder of the trumpeter:
Attachments
CP1480.png
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