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How the French read the cards

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Re: How the French read the cards

Post by Papageno »

CaraHamilton wrote: 15 Apr 2020, 21:53 Both Jean-Claude Flornoy and Mary Greer wrote about this reading.
Cara
Can you provide titles of the books wherein Jean-Claude Flornoy and Mary Greer address these reading techniques, that you described?

It would be extremely helpful.
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Re: How the French read the cards

Post by KoyDeli »

Papageno wrote: 18 Apr 2020, 16:52
CaraHamilton wrote: 15 Apr 2020, 21:53 Both Jean-Claude Flornoy and Mary Greer wrote about this reading.
Cara
Can you provide titles of the books wherein Jean-Claude Flornoy and Mary Greer address these reading techniques, that you described?

It would be extremely helpful.
Mary Greer mentions it on her blog:
https://marykgreer.com/2008/04/03/the-o ... omte-de-m/
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Re: How the French read the cards

Post by KoyDeli »

Here is part VII of Mellets essay, in which he applies the method to the dream of seven fat cow and seven thin cows.

VII. It was a large portion of ancient wisdom.
But if the Sages of Egypt used sacred tableaux to predict the future, even when they had no other indications to make them presume future events, with what hopes did they not flatter themselves to know them when their investigations were preceded by dreams that could help develop the sentence produced by the Tableaux of Fate!

The priests of this ancient people formed early on a learned society, in charge of preserving and extending human knowledge. The priesthood had its leaders, and the names of Jannes & Mambres, which Saint Paul has preserved for us in his Second Epistle to Timothy, are titles that characterize the august functions of the pontiffs[1]. Jannes means the Exponent, & Mambres the Permutator, the one who does wonders.

The Jannes & the Mambres wrote their interpretations, their discoveries, their miracles. The uninterrupted continuation of these memoirs[2] formed a body of Science & Doctrine, wherein the priests collected their physical & moral knowledge: they observed, under the inspection of their leaders, the course of the heavenly bodies, the floods of the Nile, Phenomena, etc,. Kings sometimes assembled them to help each other with their advice. We see that in the time of the Patriarch Joseph they were called by Pharaoh to interpret a dream; and if Joseph alone had the glory to discover its meaning, it nonetheless proves that one of the functions of the Magi was to explicate dreams.

The Egyptians[3] had not yet given up the errors of idolatry; but God in those distant times often manifesting his will to men, if anyone would have considered it rash to question him on his eternal decrees, it should at least have seemed forgivable to seek to penetrate them, when the divinity seemed not only to approve but even to provoke, by dreams, this curiosity: therefore their interpretation was a sublime Art, a sacred science of which a special study was made, reserved for the Ministers of the Altars: & when the officers of Pharaoh, prisoners with Joseph, grieved that they had no one to explain their dreams, it is not that they did not have companions in their misfortune; but because they were locked in the prison of the Chief of the Militia, there was no one among the soldiers who could perform the religious ceremonies, who had the sacred images, far from having the understanding of them. The very answer of the Patriarch seems to explain their thought: does not interpretation, he says to them, depend on the Lord? Relate to me what you have seen.

But to return to the duties of priests, they began by writing in common letters the dream with which they were concerned, as in all divination there was a positive question, the answer to which had to be sought in the Book of Fates, & after shuffling the sacred letters and drawing them, paying scrupulous attention to placing them under the words whose explanation was sought; the sentence formed by these images was deciphered by the Jannes.

Suppose, for example, that a Magus had wished to interpret the dream of Pharaoh, of which we spoke earlier, as they had tried to imitate the miracles of Moses, and that he had drawn the fortunate Baton, the symbol par excellence of agriculture, followed by the Knight & the King [4]; and from the Book of Destiny the cards of the Sun, Fortune & the Fool are drawn at the same time, we will have the first part of the sentence we seek. If he then took out the Two and Five of Batons, whose symbol is marked with blood, and from the sacred images were drawn Typhon and Death, he would have obtained some sort of interpretation of the King’s dream, which may have been written thus in ordinary letters:
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
SevenFatCows.jpg

[/centre]
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ The Sign of Agriculture gives seven.

It will be read, therefore, that seven years of prosperous agriculture will give an abundance a hundred times greater than has ever been experienced.

The second part of this sentence, closed by the two and the five of batons, also gives the number seven which, combined with Typhon & Death, announces seven years of famine & the evils it entails.

This explanation will appear even more natural if attention is paid to the meaning and value of the letters that the pictures represent.

The Sun corresponding to Gimel means, in this sense, remuneration, happiness.

Fortune or Lamed means Rule, Law, Science.

The Fool expresses nothing by itself, it corresponds to Tau, which is simply a sign, a mark.

Typhon or Zain heralds fickleness, error, broken faith, crime.

Death or Thet indicates the action of reaping: indeed, Death is a terrible reaper. Teleuté, which in Greek means the end, could be, in this sense, a derivative of Thet.

It would not be difficult to find in the Egyptian customs the origin of most of our superstitions: for example, it seems that turning the sieve to know a thief, owes its birth to their custom of marking thieves with a hot iron, composed of the two characters Tau and Samech [5], one on the other, to make the figure Signum adherens, which served to warn people to be suspicious of the bearer. It produces a figure which somewhat resembles a pair of scissors pricked in a circle, in a sieve, which must separate when the name of the thief is pronounced and made known.

Divination by the Bible, the Gospel, and our Canonical Books, which were called the auguries of the Saints, of which it is spoken in the one hundred and nineteenth Letter of St. Augustine and in several Councils, among others that of Orleans; the auguries of Saint Martin of Tours, which were so famous, seem to have been considered as an antidote to Egyptian divination by the Book of Destiny. It is the same with the omens drawn from the Gospel, ad apperturam libri, when after the election of a Bishop they wished to know what his conduct would be in the Episcopate.

But such is the fate of human things: of such a sublime science, which has occupied the greatest men, the most learned philosophers, the most respectable saints, there remains only the usage of children drawn to the beautiful letters.


1. As Pharaoh means the Sovereign without being the particular name of any Prince who has ruled Egypt.
2. Pope Gelasius I put in 491 some Books of Jannes & Mambres among the apocrypha.
3. Long after this time the Magi recognized the finger of God in the Miracles of Moses.
4. The valet is worth 1, The Knight 2, The Queen 3, The King 4.
5. Tau, sign: Samech, adhesion.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Notes:

The Second Letter of St. Paul to Timothy, 3:8
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres* withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
*Jambres, more accurate transliteration is Mambres.

" Jannes and Jambres are the subjects of many legendary tales, one of which is presented in a Greek work entitled "Pœnitentia Jannis et Mambre," counted among the Apocrypha in Pope Gelasius' "Decretum," and referred to by Origen (to Matt. xxvii. 9)."
http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/ ... nd-jambres

THE MANNER OF CAUSING THE SIEVE TO TURN, THAT THOU MAYEST KNOW WHO HAS COMMITTED THE THEFT.

Take a Sieve and stick into the outside of the rim the open points of a pair of scissors, and having rested the rings of the said opened scissors on the thumb-nails of two persons, let one of them say the following Prayer:--

DIES MIES YES-CHET BENE DONE FET DONNIMA METEMAUZ; O Lord, Who liberated the holy Susanna from a false accusation of crime; O Lord, Who liberated the holy Thekla; O Lord, Who rescued the holy Daniel from the den of lions, and the Three Children from the burning fiery furnace, free the innocent and reveal the guilty.

After this let him or her pronounce aloud the names and surnames of all the persons living in the house where the theft hast been committed, who may be suspected of having stolen the things in question, saying:--

'By Saint Peter and Saint Paul, such a person hath not done this thing.'

And let the other reply:--

'By Saint Peter and Saint Paul, he (or she) hath not done it.'

Let this be repeated thrice for each person named and suspected, and it is certain that on naming the person who hath committed the theft or done the crime, the sieve will turn of itself without its being able to stop it, and by this thou shalt know the evil doer.

The Veritable Clavicles of Solomon,, chapter 26. Translated from Hebrew into the Latin Language by Rabbi Abognazar. (English translation by Samuel Liddell MacGregor Mathers).

The auguries of the Saints (les sorts des Saints) : Bibliomancy, to divine by the first lines of a sacred scripture opened at random.
The auguries of Saint Martin of Tours (les sorts des Saint-Martin de Tours) : When the Deputies of Clovis entered the church of St. Martin of Tours, where his relics were kept, the words being sung by the choir were "Lord Lord I have put on my strength for the war, and you have slaughtered under my feet those who have risen against me." And indeed, Clovis was victorious. Thus arose the superstition that the words being sung by the choir when one entered the church were to be taken as a divine omen.

ad apperturam libri: [to open book] - an act of translation, a sermon, or other activity based on a text: extemporaneously, without preparation or recourse to reference materials. Oxford Dictionary.
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CaraHamilton
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Re: How the French read the cards

Post by CaraHamilton »

KoyDeli wrote: 18 Apr 2020, 17:15
Papageno wrote: 18 Apr 2020, 16:52
CaraHamilton wrote: 15 Apr 2020, 21:53 Both Jean-Claude Flornoy and Mary Greer wrote about this reading.
Cara
Can you provide titles of the books wherein Jean-Claude Flornoy and Mary Greer address these reading techniques, that you described?

It would be extremely helpful.
Mary Greer mentions it on her blog:
https://marykgreer.com/2008/04/03/the-o ... omte-de-m/
Thank you Koydeli, the blog was where I read it.
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Re: How the French read the cards

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An 18th Century method of divining by cards
Translated from Mélanges Tirés d'une Grande Bibliothèque, Volume 2, 1779
by Marc Antoine René de Voyer de Paulmy d' Argenson.
[Trans. Köy Deli]

I will teach you the great art of divining by the cards, an amusement we often have in the country when the parties are over. You are acquainted, no doubt, Madam, with the art of Patience, or drawing cards alone, but this is nothing. Instead, I will, Madam, put you in a position to answer all sorts of questions, to make an oracle of several card games. You are prudent, and have too much sense to give disagreeable answers to persons who could consult you, or to scare them: this is a very necessary precaution that every wise seer must take, because often predicted calamities frighten more than promised pleasures delight.

The general rules: the hearts indicate happiness & success in gallantry, and the diamonds, of one’s interests & finance; clubs are favourable to one’s ambitious views, and spades to war projects or military advancement: contrary, the spades are unfavourable in the affairs of gallantry, the clubs must give reason to fear that financial and business interests go wrong, the hearts announces big disappointment to projects of ambition, and the diamonds act contrary to soldiers. If it is a married man who questions & is distinguished, the king is the most favourable card there is, if it is a woman, it is the queen; & if it is a young person, it is the Valet. The tens signify the greatest happiness or misfortune, then the nines, eights or sevens in the decreasing order, and finally the ace is the smallest injury or slightest advantage.

According to these principles, we can query the Oracle: the questioner forms the question and writes it in the briefest possible words on a piece of paper, which is handed, folded, to the person who draws the cards. (If the questioner enters into the question the name of a person they do not want to make known, they can simply indicate the number of letters of which it is composed.)

The high priest or high priestess of the Oracle counts all the letters that are in the sentence of the querent, as they are written, without regard to good or bad spelling, then takes two sets of pique cards*, making sixty-four cards, and shuffles them until well mixed together, and the person concerned cuts the pack. Then as many cards as there are letters are drawn, and all those ones mean nothing: it is the card which immediately follows that decides the fate, good or bad, according to whether it is a favourable colour or otherwise, and depending on whether it indicates the level of happiness or unhappiness. If it is a colour that is not relevant to the question, or if it falls on a woman, when it is a man who asks, or a servant when he is an old man married or widowed, in all these cases the cards are redone. If the questioner saw that the Oracle are difficult to explain, fears that it tells some bad success, he is master of his paper to throw it in the fire, and cease to question: but if he wants absolutely know what to expect, we shuffle the cards anew, cutting & pulling a second time, and up to three & four...

... it is for the one who takes care of the cards, never to admit some issues that can be put to them, for example, this: Is my wife unfaithful to me? Or: I still love Mr. ... or M. ..., does he love me still? These are objects that one should consult other Oracles with a sensible heart and a well mind. But one can rotate the question into one that is more suitable: here are some examples of things that can be asked, and on which the Oracle is able to answer. Will I be happy in my love? Will I be successful in my attentions? Suppose we adopt the last sentence, which contains thirty-one letters: first thirty-one cards will be drawn, and the thirty-second will be decisive. If it happens to be an ace of heart, the plaintiff is mocked, because it is proven that it will have only a very small success, if it is the ten of spades, he will complain; if it is a clubs, or diamonds, or a king, or a valet, when the questioner is a lady, then the Oracle does not answer. However it spoke, when the divination is over one must burn the paper that contains the question.

*A piquet set of cards is a reduced deck of 32 cards containing the King, Queen, Valet, Ten, Nine, Eight, Seven & Ace of each of the four suits of an ordinary pack of playing cards.
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Re: How the French read the cards

Post by _R_ »

Here is a piece that gives a good overview of some of the spreads, mostly historical, in use in the French cartomantic tradition.
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Re: How the French read the cards

Post by Scanner »

A very interesting topic.
My thought when I read what Diana wrote was: This is because French cartomancy doesn't care about western occultism (and Kabbala) like the creators of the RWS-Tarot did and is much more easier/uncomplicated than the use of modern decks.
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Re: How the French read the cards

Post by Abigail »

Diana wrote: 15 Apr 2020, 14:37There are no discussion forums such as CoT or TT&Me in the Francophone world. The last one that was quite interesting sort of folded when Facebook came along.
What was the name of this forum that has closed ?
There are several forums, but not as large as CoT. And the forums close, I think for lack of participation. I do not use tarot, but I found this :

:arrow: An old forum, le Fabuleux Forum du Tarot : http://www.ff-tarot.com/

:arrow: Forum Camoin : https://fr.camoin.com/tarot/Forum-Tarot ... amoin.html

:arrow: The forum has closed, but the site is interesting : https://tarotfan.kevinmeunier.com/?page=forum
Old tarots : http://formation.kevinmeunier.com/?page_id=1336

:arrow: Forum Moony : https://moony.forumactif.com/

:arrow: Forum l'Oeil de Salem : https://salem.forumactif.be/

:arrow: Le Forum Esotérique (paranormal and cartomancy) : https://www.forum-eso.com/index.php
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Re: How the French read the cards

Post by Abigail »

Diana wrote: 15 Apr 2020, 16:30 Another thing they do a lot, not systematically but very often, is to add up the numbers and reduce them. And then they take into account that number. That's why in one of the readings I mentioned above the person said: Total Justice 8, its's a brutal good-bye. Justice wasn't one of the cards. I know this is also done sometimes in anglo-saxon circles, but the French do it much more frequently.
Yes, synthesis is widely used. It is done mainly by theosophical reduction.
But with this method, the Magician and the High Priestress never come out in synthesis because we take the Wheel of Fortune (10) and the Judgment (20). I do not find this method balanced.

There is the modulo method which is not used in France :
http://tirages-de-tarot.over-blog.com/a ... 54381.html
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Re: How the French read the cards

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KoyDeli wrote: 15 Apr 2020, 23:31That is the method described by Mellet in his essay published in Monde Primitif in 1781. Etteilla method also used pips of course and was very popular in the 19th century; even readers who used TdB or TdM would use his meanings for the pips or variations of them {there are quite a few TdB and TdM decks from the 19th century in museums and private collections upon which people have written DM's on the Pips, upright and reversed). I think trump only reading became more the de facto method in France c, first quarter of the 20th century, possibly with the popularity of trump only spread of the Tirage en Croix popularised by Wirth. Etteilla's meaning were carried on in England to an extent via the incorporation of his DMs for the pips via Mathers and Waite. Prior to Etteilla's work on the tarot Piquet decks were most commonly used by card-readers. The game of Piquet was very popular in France so most people had a Piquet deck to hand if they didn't have a full pack {Piquet was such a popular game that manufacturers made Piquet only decks, they were more popular than ordinary full 52 card decks for quite a while} . Etteilla's first work on cartonomancy of course was based on a Piquet deck, with addition of an Etteilla card. The meanings from his Piquet deck he later applied to the pips of the tarot.
Congratulations, you know very well the history of French cartomancy !
Etteilla created his Piquet deck in 1770.

After using Piquet deck, it was created decks associating an illustration with the playing card.
- Le Jeu du Destin Antique
- Le Petit Oracle des Dames (1807)
- L'Epitre aux Dames (1820)
- La Sibylle des salons (1827) illustrated by Grandville
- Le Jeu de la Main by Adèle Moreau
- Le Grand Jeu de Mlle Lenormand (1845 ?)
- Le Livre du Destin (1860)
- Le Petit Cartomancien (1890)

Etteilla has revolutionized cartomancy in France. His tarot deck was a great success. Currently in France, the tarot of Etteilla is very disparaged by the purists of the tarot.

Today, TdM is the most used in France. Then, the Belline Oracle.
The Piquet deck is used by older people.
The Rider-Waite is more and more used in France, but to my knowledge, not by professionals for the moment.
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Re: How the French read the cards

Post by Abigail »

_R_ wrote: 18 Apr 2020, 04:02 There are 1-2 very recent books on the RWS available now in French, and they haven’t made much of an impact, for a number of reasons, although the trend seems to be to want to move on from the Grimaud/TdM "hegemony", in a way, where younger readers are concerned, from my anecdotal observation.
Currently, we have a dozen books on the Rider-Waite, including 8 that I can cite:
- La Bible du Tarot - Sarah Bartlett
- Coffret Tarot Doré - Barbara Moore and Ciro Marchetti
- Lire le tarot avec le Rider-Waite - Emmanuelle Iger
- Le Grand Guide du Tarot - Liz Dean
- Rider Tarot, Intuition et inconscient - Mario Montano
- Le Livre du Rider Tarot - Christophe Dacier
- Le Rider-Waite-Smith Tarot - Panthee
- ABC Le Rider-Waite - Emmanuelle Iger

In fact, the Grimaud tarot has not been the benchmark for fifteen years, even if it has its supporters.
The tarots acclaimed by purists are the Noblet, the Viéville, the Dodal, the Conver ...
That gave rise to very aggressive debates on the forums to find out what is the "real" tarot of Marseille !

There was also much debate about the origin of the Tarot in Europe, each claiming that his hypothesis was the right one.
In 2018, Isabelle Nadolny (a historian who works at the National Library of France) wrote a book on the origin of the tarot. His book is very well argued with many photos of tarot cards. I recommend it for those who read French.
(Histoire du tarot by Isabelle Nadolny).
Tarot Isabelle Nadolny.jpeg
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Re: How the French read the cards

Post by Papageno »

Abigail wrote: 25 Apr 2020, 23:05
In 2018, Isabelle Nadolny (a historian who works at the National Library of France) wrote a book on the origin of the tarot. His book is very well argued with many photos of tarot cards. I recommend it for those who read French.
(Histoire du tarot by Isabelle Nadolny).

A great loss for those of us who cannot read French.

She and/or the Biblioteque Nationale de France should seriously consider publishing an English translation.
This appears to be a very important piece of scholarship.

There are YouTube videos with Ms. Nadolny but naturally, they are exclusively in French, and YouTube translations are completely ridiculous.
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Re: How the French read the cards

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Abigail wrote: 25 Apr 2020, 21:59 Congratulations, you know very well the history of French cartomancy !
Thank you, but it is somewhat limited, I have made translations for myself of Gebelin, Mellet, as many of Etteilla's works {whose decks, and variations thereof, I love & for his undeniable but nonetheless often denigrated influence by those who seek to diminish it], I have been able to get hold of, as well of those of his students.

I have relied on existing translations of the 'occultists' such as Levi, Christian, Papus, Wirth, etc...; though I have had to look at the pre-occult stuff of Levi in original French, as it wasn't translated and is I think important to understand his later occult writings. Also had to translate Guaita and Dammartin for myself, and I make clear I don't speak French, so it was laborious work, but thanks to google, Reverso, babel and online dictionaries archaic and modern and with a secondary school knowledge of French, possible, albeit I don't doubt with some/many errors of understanding.

As well as various online archives of books, gazettes, catalogues, articles and advertisements to draw up timelines. I have also looked at the many late 18th and 19th century French books on cartomancy as are available online in various archives or in pdf, and biographical anecdotes of people's consultations with readers. So I have tried, but with as limited as my understanding of French is, I can't say with any degree of confidence that it is as thorough or as with a full degree of understanding as a French speakers knowledge should be, and no doubt have made mistakes. Always, as with anything, check your sources, and their sources.

In terms of actual practice of course [reading cards, as opposed to simply reading texts and researching history about the reading of cards], my practical experience and familiarity with clients & readers has largely been confined to clients and fellow readers in England and Turkey, although I have occasionally given readings on French forums, wherein the nickname of 'yoda' enlightens me to just how poor my French is! :D
- Le Petit Oracle des Dames (1807)
This is one of the decks I took particular interest in, so am able to give a little info about it; according to the last research of myself and others [which may be out of date by now, but I'm not aware of anyone doing further research since) :

Some historical background:

In 1797 Jacques Grasset de Saint-Sauveur created the 42 card deck 'Le Petit Oracles des Dames'. The title on the cover of the accompanying book reads:

"Petit oracle des dames / Petit Etteilla, jeu de 42 cartes, avec livret Tableaux mobiles des jeux de fortune, ou l'Art de lire dans l'avenir avec sûreté par le rapprochement des événemens qui démontrent sans réplique l'art chronomancique. A Paris, Chez l'Auteur, rue Nicaise Nr. 513. An cinquième / 1797."
source: Thierry Depaulis, personal correspondence

The POdD was advertised as being available from him (the author) and/or from his publisher Deroy until at least January/February of 1800:

Image
Note: Saint-Sauveur moved from his address at rue Nicaise to that at Rue Coq-Heron towards the end of 1797

From April/May of 1800 it is advertised as being available from Morin et Lenoir. At some point Gueffier seems to have acquired the rights, and it is advertised as being available from June/July of 1801. It, along with several other Etteilla products (such as 'Le Veritable Etteilla', a petit Etteilla deck, the rights of which also seem to have been passed down from Jacques Grasset de Saint-Sauveur, who had published a Petit Etteilla deck in 1796), are available from Gueffier until at least 1827, though Peytieux acquired the rights from them for many of their Etteilla products in 1823 and in 1824, and they were also published by or available from him from that time. It was subsequently published by a variety of publishers during the 19th century.

The Deck:

A copy of Le Petit Oracle des dames ou Récréation des curieux published by the Widow Gueffier [Paris, chez la Veuve Gueffier] in 1807, with its LWB, can be viewed online and downloaded (for non-commercial use) from the Bibliothèque nationale de France:

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b1 ... rk=21459;2

[A reproduction by Grimaud is currently available]

The LWB

The above link includes the LWB that went with the Widow Gueffier's 1807 edition, there is also another edition of a POdD LWB at the BnF here:

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6 ... es%20Dames

[Note: the BnF gives a publication date for this LWB of between 1770 - 1820: however, this edition cannot be prior to 1829 as it was only on August 7, 1827, when the printer (Louis-Théodore Ducessois) received his patent, and did not move into the address at 55 quai des Grands-Augustins until 1829, he sold his patent on June 18, 1847, so date for this edition must be between 1829 - 1847]

Note: These historical notes are from research undertaken by 'Huck', 'Philippe', 'Mike Howard" and myself while researching and producing an Etteilla Timeline on ATF and at the Tarot History Forum -

Jaques Grasset de Saint-Sauver also published a Petit Etteilla in 1796: There is a copy at the British Museum, but unfortunately, it is not one of those currently available online.
Etteilla has revolutionized cartomancy in France. His tarot deck was a great success.


Totally agree, my study of Etteilla has been fascinating, albeit often frustrating!
Currently in France, the tarot of Etteilla is very disparaged by the purists of the tarot.
Disparagement which goes back to the early French occultist schools, and continued in the English.
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Re: How the French read the cards

Post by KoyDeli »

Papageno wrote: 25 Apr 2020, 23:33
Abigail wrote: 25 Apr 2020, 23:05
In 2018, Isabelle Nadolny (a historian who works at the National Library of France) wrote a book on the origin of the tarot. His book is very well argued with many photos of tarot cards. I recommend it for those who read French.
(Histoire du tarot by Isabelle Nadolny).

A great loss for those of us who cannot read French.

She and/or the Biblioteque Nationale de France should seriously consider publishing an English translation.
This appears to be a very important piece of scholarship.

There are YouTube videos with Ms. Nadolny but naturally, they are exclusively in French, and YouTube translations are completely ridiculous.
I think an English translation is soon to be published - it is either in the process of being translated, or translation has already been done and in the process of publication...? I seem to recall some notification of such somewhere, but can't find it now... possibly my memory is conflating it with notice of translation of some other book...
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Re: How the French read the cards

Post by KoyDeli »

KoyDeli wrote: 25 Apr 2020, 23:43
Papageno wrote: 25 Apr 2020, 23:33
Abigail wrote: 25 Apr 2020, 23:05
In 2018, Isabelle Nadolny (a historian who works at the National Library of France) wrote a book on the origin of the tarot. His book is very well argued with many photos of tarot cards. I recommend it for those who read French.
(Histoire du tarot by Isabelle Nadolny).

A great loss for those of us who cannot read French.

She and/or the Biblioteque Nationale de France should seriously consider publishing an English translation.
This appears to be a very important piece of scholarship.

There are YouTube videos with Ms. Nadolny but naturally, they are exclusively in French, and YouTube translations are completely ridiculous.
I think an English translation is soon to be published - it is either in the process of being translated, or translation has already been done and in the process of publication...? I seem to recall some notification of such somewhere, but can't find it now... possibly my memory is conflating it with notice of translation of some other book...
Last notice I can find from Isabelle was in January, when she wrote that it was being translated into Spanish, and she is looking for an English editor this year.
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Re: How the French read the cards

Post by Papageno »

KoyDeli wrote: 26 Apr 2020, 16:27 she is looking for an English editor this year.
that's good, if it happens, of course that depends on whether "they" (whoever the collective "they" are) decide whether or not there's a viable market for the English speaking market.

Her credentials are impressive, but it might be easier if "they" could persuade the Bibliotheque Nationale to at least endorse the book.
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Abigail
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Re: How the French read the cards

Post by Abigail »

KoyDeli wrote: 25 Apr 2020, 23:40 Thank you, but it is somewhat limited, I have made translations for myself of Gebelin, Mellet, as many of Etteilla's works {whose decks, and variations thereof, I love & for his undeniable but nonetheless often denigrated influence by those who seek to diminish it], I have been able to get hold of, as well of those of his students.
You are a real passionate, it's great! French is a fairly complicated language, so I imagine automatic translations with old French...
Have you presented your research on the forum? I did not find a presentation of old cartomancy games (but I just arrived on the forum which is large).
Thank you for informations on Le Petit Oracle des Dames ! :)
I had this deck at one time but I was embarrassed by the fact that some cards read only straight and others straight and reversed.
What decks do you use regularly?
KoyDeli wrote: 26 Apr 2020, 16:27 Last notice I can find from Isabelle was in January, when she wrote that it was being translated into Spanish, and she is looking for an English editor this year.
Great, you will love the book ! :D
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