Wrestling with swords

[Merrick]

...is a great way to get cut!

But seriously, I’m having a hard time figuring out what the suit of swords really means. In the TdM, they are mainly conflict, which makes total sense. Depending on the context, they can also be protection, which again makes sense. They can be other things too but those are the main meanings that I associate with swords in the TdM. In RWS/Thoth and associated decks, they represent mind and will and I just can’t connect to that at all. Other than the phrase “a sharp mind” I cannot think of any significant cultural allusions to the mind as a sword or a blade, or the will as those things either.

What associations do you have for swords when you read RWS or Thoth? Do you hold that the swords are mind or will or do you have a different reading of them?

[Charlie Brown]

The sword is not an instrument of anger. Historically, it wasn't like Game of Thrones or a D&D movie where every Tom, Dick, and Norquinal had a sword. If you got angry, you'd probably just bash them with something blunt. The sword was an instrument of the nobility and the elite soldier. It was more a symbol of power and conflict than an instrument of acrimony. The people who carried swords were the type who were fighting for an idea or an ideal, even if that idea was simply loyalty to a liege.

[Papageno]

...is a great way to get cut!

But seriously, I’m having a hard time figuring out what the suit of swords really means. In the TdM, they are mainly conflict,

which makes total sense. Depending on the context, they can also be protection, which again makes sense. They can be other things too but those are the main meanings that I associate with swords in the TdM. In RWS/Thoth and associated decks, they represent mind and will and I just can’t connect to that at all. Other than the phrase “a sharp mind” I cannot think of any significant cultural allusions to the mind as a sword or a blade, or the will as those things either.

What associations do you have for swords when you read RWS or Thoth? Do you hold that the swords are mind or will or do you have a different reading of them?

In my little world, most things are fluid. I see no reason why the suit of swords can (inherently) signify (to varying degrees) qualities of the 3 major schools of Tarot and their offshoots.

On another thread, M.M. Meleen talks about cross-pollination and hybridizing, I love it, I'm all for it, life is all about E.V.O.L.U.T.I.O.N.
If there's no evolution, everything remains static and stagnates.
Without cross-pollinating, we wouldn't be blessed with the varieties of fruits and vegetables we now enjoy.
It's the same with Tarot, hybrid decks are amongst my favorites.

What does anything "really" mean, unless you seek to embrace ORTHODOXY, and even in that hallowed realm, there is controversy and debate.

However, if this makes you feel more comfortable, let's fall back on 2 RWS and Thoth cards along with their traditional meanings.

RWS 8/swords - your perception is limited and you feel as though you cannot move beyond the boundaries of established TdM conventions.

Thoth 8/swords - the traditional title is Interference. ie. a state of confusion, you're mind is going around in circles and is unable to focus, this is counter-productive. Here again, this is a circumstance wherein you are unable to move forward and make meaningful progress.

but.......you've already answered your own question. It's all about CONTEXT.
Regarding the TdM, you said: "Depending on the context, they can also be protection, which again makes sense."

Do you not see protection in the traditional Waite-Smith image of the 8/swords?
Even in the Thoth 8/swords, we see an image of a barrier of swords, except that it's configured differently.

So in the aforementioned examples, this is the (visual) correlation between TdM, RWS, and Thoth in the context of "protection".

[Merrick]

...is a great way to get cut!

But seriously, I’m having a hard time figuring out what the suit of swords really means. In the TdM, they are mainly conflict,

which makes total sense. Depending on the context, they can also be protection, which again makes sense. They can be other things too but those are the main meanings that I associate with swords in the TdM. In RWS/Thoth and associated decks, they represent mind and will and I just can’t connect to that at all. Other than the phrase “a sharp mind” I cannot think of any significant cultural allusions to the mind as a sword or a blade, or the will as those things either.

What associations do you have for swords when you read RWS or Thoth? Do you hold that the swords are mind or will or do you have a different reading of them?

In my little world, most things are fluid. I see no reason why the suit of swords can (inherently) signify (to varying degrees) qualities of the 3 major schools of Tarot and their offshoots.

On another thread, M.M. Meleen talks about cross-pollination and hybridizing, I love it, I'm all for it, life is all about E.V.O.L.U.T.I.O.N.
If there's no evolution, everything remains static and stagnates.
Without cross-pollinating, we wouldn't be blessed with the varieties of fruits and vegetables we now enjoy.
It's the same with Tarot, hybrid decks are amongst my favorites.

What does anything "really" mean, unless you seek to embrace ORTHODOXY, and even in that hallowed realm, there is controversy and debate.

However, if this makes you feel more comfortable, let's fall back on 2 RWS and Thoth cards along with their traditional meanings.

RWS 8/swords - your perception is limited and you feel as though you cannot move beyond the boundaries of established TdM conventions.

Thoth 8/swords - the traditional title is Interference. ie. a state of confusion, you're mind is going around in circles and is unable to focus, this is counter-productive. Here again, this is a circumstance wherein you are unable to move forward and make meaningful progress.

but.......you've already answered your own question. It's all about CONTEXT.
Regarding the TdM, you said: "Depending on the context, they can also be protection, which again makes sense."

Do you not see protection in the traditional Waite-Smith image of the 8/swords?
Even in the Thoth 8/swords, we see an image of a barrier of swords, except that it's configured differently.

So in the aforementioned examples, this is the (visual) correlation between TdM, RWS, and Thoth in the context of "protection".

Hmm, perhaps I wasn’t clear. I have no problem with any tarot card or suit accruing meanings over time (and hybridizing is a good word for some of the changes we’ve seen in tarot over time), but I’m trying to make sense of it for myself. I am not concerned that RWS/Thoth see aspects of swords that aren’t necessarily in traditional TdM meanings, I’m saying I’m having trouble connecting those RWS/Thoth meanings with swords, regardless of what the TdM meaning is. The TdM meanings make sense to me because I can make the connection between swords, conflict, and protection. I am having trouble making the same connection between swords, thoughts, and will.

The sword is not an instrument of anger. Historically, it wasn't like Game of Thrones or a D&D movie where every Tom, Dick, and Norquinal had a sword. If you got angry, you'd probably just bash them with something blunt. The sword was an instrument of the nobility and the elite soldier. It was more a symbol of power and conflict than an instrument of acrimony. The people who carried swords were the type who were fighting for an idea or an ideal, even if that idea was simply loyalty to a liege.

Thank you Charlie, I think I see where you’re going with this. The sword, being a precision instrument, was not idly used and mainly used by people with some level of sociopolitical agency. Hence it requires thought and will to wield effectively.

[Papageno]

I’m saying I’m having trouble connecting those RWS/Thoth meanings with swords, regardless of what the TdM meaning is. The TdM meanings make sense to me because I can make the connection between swords, conflict, and protection. I am having trouble making the same connection between swords, thoughts, and will.

You were perfectly clear.

Making the correlation between the 3 schools within the context of protection and conflict, was my unsuccessful attempt to help you "making the same connection between swords, thoughts, and will."

[Merrick]

I’m saying I’m having trouble connecting those RWS/Thoth meanings with swords, regardless of what the TdM meaning is. The TdM meanings make sense to me because I can make the connection between swords, conflict, and protection. I am having trouble making the same connection between swords, thoughts, and will.

You were perfectly clear.

Making the correlation between the 3 schools within the context of protection and conflict, was my unsuccessful attempt to help you "making the same connection between swords, thoughts, and will."

My apologies then. I looked at the RWS 8 of Swords and definitely saw the protection there. The Thoth 8 of Swords gave me this overwhelming feeling of bars, like a gate or a prison cell. This is a kind of protection I suppose, but it felt like a protection of what is on the other side of the card from me. This does make sense with the card’s title of interference.

[Papageno]

My apologies then. I looked at the RWS 8 of Swords and definitely saw the protection there. The Thoth 8 of Swords gave me this overwhelming feeling of bars, like a gate or a prison cell. This is a kind of protection I suppose, but it felt like a protection of what is on the other side of the card from me. This does make sense with the card’s title of interference.

no need for apologies, this is a discussion, not a debate.

By the same token, the Waite-Smith 8/swords can also imply a gate or imprisonment.

It was my fault for obfuscating by introducing multiple threads of thought.

Yes, the Thoth 8/swords "Interference" can add to the confusion, but then again, I don't adhere to "orthodoxy".....as you have already guessed.

Being too literal, can in itself be limiting (for me)....... "blinding" and/or "binding", but to each their own.

As you know, you can pose a single question to several readers who will see different narratives, but ultimately end with essentially the same conclusion......different paths that lead to the same destination.