Tarot de Marseille Decks - Musings

[Papageno]

I'm sure there are many of you seasoned TdM readers out there who have favorite "every day" or "workhorse" decks.

I can only offer opinions based on aesthetic preferences.

The Stone Marseille Tarot, I love the black background, her technique, overall color palette, and interpretation of the Conver.
(just received it, love it)

Le Veritable Hadar, I can't reconcile myself with golden light emanating from the crown of La Papesse and other cards.
(I don't own this one)

Jodorowsky-Camoin, technicolor TdM, very vibrant to say the least which I don't mind at all.
I'm amused by La Papesse and the egg which is a little odd, although I get it, but I'm not certain why some reviewers carry on about "the door" in Maison Dieu. Robert Place talks about it, a door is present in the so-called "Budapest Tarot".....inquiring minds want to know, why is "the door" so controversial?
(I don't own this one either)

Pablo Robledo TdM, I don't own it, not gonna chase it, but overall it seems like a very handsome deck, and I love the tan background.

Flornoy, I don't own nor am I interested in this series, although I acknowledge their merit.
The Vieville, Jean Dodal, Jean Noblet.......what are your thoughts oh learned ones.

Conver Ben-Dov/CBD, it's the #1 (I think) but I find it "cold".....OK, bring on the firewood and gasoline, burn me at the stake.
I don't own it (obviously)

BP Grimaud, I like it, it feels very "structurally sound". It's not fancy but I find it very accessible.
(it's sitting in France on lockdown, we must be patient)

Nouveau Tarot de Marseille by Gonzalo Æneas, I think this is absolutely sumptuous and brilliant.
(I am anxiously waiting for this to arrive)


So, what are your thoughts on any of these decks?

Do you have other TdM decks you use regularly not on this list that you would prefer to discuss?

[Merrick]

Great thread idea! My go to is the Flornoy Noblet, I have the commercially printed 78 card deck and the hand stenciled major arcana. They’re both beautiful and I love the character of the Noblet designs, ribald and funny and vital. On my wish list is the Tarot Sheet Revival Dodal deck, which I surely will acquire at some point.

I have the CBD and it’s fine. It works, it gives me good readings, the card stock is solid. At the time I bought it I couldn’t decide between the Jodorowsky or the CBD, and eventually went for the CBD because I was reading Ben-Dov’s book and it just made sense to have the deck that goes with it. In retrospect I might have chosen the Jodorowsky. I don’t love the redone faces of the CBD and certain details like the lobster in La Lune get a bit lost. On the other hand, the Jodorowsky is significantly ahistorical, both with the added design elements to the cards like the egg but also in the variety of colors used, which would have far exceeded the amount and intensity of color used in the actual Conver deck. So if color is a significant element of your readings, the Jodorowsky could skew that compared to the CBD, which has a more restricted color palette. I still think I would personally prefer the Jodorowsky with the full understanding that it’s a very modern deck.

That being said, since I have the CBD I won’t bother to also get the Jodorowsky because I prefer Type I TdM and both of those are Type II. If I were to get another Type II deck, it would be the Robledo as the images are sumptuous and he borrows some elements from Type I, plus he’s such an incredible artisan that I would love to have some of his work.

I tend to stick to restored decks as opposed to reproduction decks. I’m sure if I saw the original Noblet or Dodal or Conver etc cards in person I’d be wowed by them, but for readings I don’t like the aged/faded look. I’m reading for the here and now, not for 500 years ago. That’s just me, some of the repro decks look like they’re very well put together and I know some swear by them.

I’m always on the lookout for more good versions of Type I decks. I know Yves produces a Payen but that’s so close to Dodal I’ll just stick with the Dodal.

[Papageno]

I tend to stick to restored decks as opposed to reproduction decks. I’m sure if I saw the original Noblet or Dodal or Conver etc cards in person I’d be wowed by them, but for readings I don’t like the aged/faded look. I’m reading for the here and now, not for 500 years ago. That’s just me, some of the repro decks look like they’re very well put together and I know some swear by them.

I’m always on the lookout for more good versions of Type I decks. I know Yves produces a Payen but that’s so close to Dodal I’ll just stick with the Dodal.

I already stated on another thread that I love the Wilfried Houdouin/Yves Reynaud Millennium Edition TdM, it hit me instantly.

You may want to check that one out, although Reynaud essentially classifies this as a Type 2

https://tarot-de-marseille-millennium.c ... h/faq.html

However, according to the Tarot heritage website, the Millenium contains elements of Type 1
"The Devil has a face in his belly"........Le Diable in the Millenium Edition certainly has that.

https://tarot-heritage.com/history-4/ta ... s-type-ii/

It's never easy

[Merrick]

To me the most important elements of the Type 1 decks are the blindfolded Cupid in The Lovers and the choking face of The Hanged Man, both of which change the way I read those cards. Unfortunately the Millennium edition doesn’t retain those, and I also don’t love that The Fool and Death are flipped images instead of parallel images as they are in many other decks (not a Type I thing specifically, and I could work with it, just not my preference).

I am stupidly picky about my TdMs, which means I won’t be reading with some really great decks, but it also keeps my money more in my wallet!

[Maskelyne]

The deck that first sparked my interest in tarot was the Jodorowski-Camoin; I really liked the bright colors. These days, my cravings for technicolor cards are satisfied by the Millennium Edition. Another favorite modern TdM is the Robledo. I have a 2012 edition that I prefer over the Iskander edition because it's brighter.

I'm also fond of older, quirkier decks:

• Budapest Tarot (Tarot Sheet Revival)--simple, effective 2-color graphics, crudely drawn, googly-eyed faces.

• Rosenwald Tarot (Tarot Sheet Revival)--some very well-drawn cards, and centaur knights, like a minchiate.

• Tarot de Paris (Grimaud)--Anonymous deck from the early 17th century. Lots of strange details, like a baboon holding a mirror for a lady on XIX, and a demon beating a drum on XVI.

• Jacques Vieville (Editions Sivilixi)-- The earliest known Flemish tarot. Some interesting faces.

• Vandenborre tarot--Later Flemish tarot, with Bacchus and a comic Spanish captain replacing the Pope and Popess

My favorite of the various Conver editions that I've seen is the one by Yves Renaud. It preserves the rough, woodcut character of the deck but cleans up the schmutz and restores the colors. This is what I imagine a new deck might have looked like in 1760, though with better cardstock.

Of the various neo-TdM decks that interpret the traditional imagery in distinctively modern ways (Tarot Noir, Maria Celia, Isis TdM, etc.), my favorite is the Tarot des Aux Arcs (https://tarot-heritage.com/2019/01/15/t ... -aux-arcs/). Though it's done in a very non-traditional style and palette, and its creator insists it's not a TdM, the loose freehand artwork evokes the crude simplicity of the old stenciled woodcuts.

[Papageno]

The Fool and Death are flipped images instead of parallel images as they are in many other decks (not a Type I thing specifically, and I could work with it, just not my preference).

ah ha, detective work or scholarship, same difference.

so, you inspired me to do some cursory research and comparisons.
Parallel Fool and Death images: Payen 1713, Cheminade 1742, Amphoux 1801

I am stupidly picky about my TdMs, which means I won’t be reading with some really great decks, but it also keeps my money more in my wallet!

not stupid

[stronglove]

The deck that first sparked my interest in tarot was the Jodorowski-Camoin; I really liked the bright colors. These days, my cravings for technicolor cards are satisfied by the Millennium Edition. Another favorite modern TdM is the Robledo. I have a 2012 edition that I prefer over the Iskander edition because it's brighter.

I'm also fond of older, quirkier decks:

• Budapest Tarot (Tarot Sheet Revival)--simple, effective 2-color graphics, crudely drawn, googly-eyed faces.

• Rosenwald Tarot (Tarot Sheet Revival)--some very well-drawn cards, and centaur knights, like a minchiate.

• Tarot de Paris (Grimaud)--Anonymous deck from the early 17th century. Lots of strange details, like a baboon holding a mirror for a lady on XIX, and a demon beating a drum on XVI.

• Jacques Vieville (Editions Sivilixi)-- The earliest known Flemish tarot. Some interesting faces.

• Vandenborre tarot--Later Flemish tarot, with Bacchus and a comic Spanish captain replacing the Pope and Popess

My favorite of the various Conver editions that I've seen is the one by Yves Renaud. It preserves the rough, woodcut character of the deck but cleans up the schmutz and restores the colors. This is what I imagine a new deck might have looked like in 1760, though with better cardstock.

Of the various neo-TdM decks that interpret the traditional imagery in distinctively modern ways (Tarot Noir, Maria Celia, Isis TdM, etc.), my favorite is the Tarot des Aux Arcs (https://tarot-heritage.com/2019/01/15/t ... -aux-arcs/). Though it's done in a very non-traditional style and palette, and its creator insists it's not a TdM, the loose freehand artwork evokes the crude simplicity of the old stenciled woodcuts.

Thanks for mentioning these decks, i love them! Like i said a couple of times before in other posts, i like my tdm’s ‘scruffy’, and the ones you mention here all fall in that category.
One i’d like to add is the ancient tarot of bologna, i have both the lo scarabeo and the (minuscule) meneghello edition, i think it is my absolute favorite, though not as ‘scruffy’ as the other ones
And i also have sullivan hisman’s dodali, so beautiful i have not been able or willing to use it yet.

My favorite noblet is a ‘scruffy’ one too, it’s the one by joseph peterson

And i must mention giordano berti, his historical decks are incredible, beautifully executed, i especially love his besançon miller his sola busca and his papus, though these are not tdm decks. his marseille decks are the hes and the lando.i have the hes, which is deliciously ‘scruffy’ and also very interesting since it is a german deck. le bateleur definitely looks ‘teutonic’ as in: blonde and chubby, as do some of the court cards

And sooo cool that you have bought the aeneas tdm, i don’t know anybody else who owns it. And the tarot de aux arcs...... absolutely awesome! I think that one is my favorite modern tdm style deck.

[Merrick]

I love the Noblet so much I might eventually get the Peterson deck eventually as well.

[Papageno]

The deck that first sparked my interest in tarot was the Jodorowski-Camoin; I really liked the bright colors. These days, my cravings for technicolor cards are satisfied by the Millennium Edition. Another favorite modern TdM is the Robledo. I have a 2012 edition that I prefer over the Iskander edition because it's brighter.

I'm also fond of older, quirkier decks:

• Budapest Tarot (Tarot Sheet Revival)--simple, effective 2-color graphics, crudely drawn, googly-eyed faces.

The Hismans Budapest is very faithful, and as one YouTube reviewer pointed out, it's like modern art.
Actually it reminds me of Pablo Picasso.

• Rosenwald Tarot (Tarot Sheet Revival)--some very well-drawn cards, and centaur knights, like a minchiate.

• Tarot de Paris (Grimaud)--Anonymous deck from the early 17th century. Lots of strange details, like a baboon holding a mirror for a lady on XIX, and a demon beating a drum on XVI.

• Jacques Vieville (Editions Sivilixi)-- The earliest known Flemish tarot. Some interesting faces.

• Vandenborre tarot--Later Flemish tarot, with Bacchus and a comic Spanish captain replacing the Pope and Popess

Rosenwald, nope, too simplistic for me, minimalistic outlines and all those dots.
Tarot de Paris, a rare gem.
Jacques Vieville (Editions Sivilixi)another gem
Vandenborre, historically important but doesn't suit me. meh

My favorite of the various Conver editions that I've seen is the one by Yves Renaud. It preserves the rough, woodcut character of the deck but cleans up the schmutz and restores the colors. This is what I imagine a new deck might have looked like in 1760, though with better cardstock.

Of the various neo-TdM decks that interpret the traditional imagery in distinctively modern ways (Tarot Noir, Maria Celia, Isis TdM, etc.), my favorite is the Tarot des Aux Arcs (https://tarot-heritage.com/2019/01/15/t ... -aux-arcs/). Though it's done in a very non-traditional style and palette, and its creator insists it's not a TdM, the loose freehand artwork evokes the crude simplicity of the old stenciled woodcuts.

Yves Reynaud, always a pleasure, needless to say.

Tarot Noir, exquisite.

I don't like the Maria Celia, although I have his Tarocchi di Marcelo Inciso, which could have been an absolutely brilliant deck if Lynyrd had rethought that "stone rubbing" aesthetic to better effect.

I'm familiar with The Isis which is technically impressive, there's no denying that, but I prefer the color palette and fabric-like softness of the Stone Marseille Tarot.

Tarot des Aux Arcs, a gorgeous deck and I love the Black Papesse....but I won't chase that one either. Still, it's nice to know of its existence.
It's always a pleasure to be introduced to beautiful art, even if I can't have it (all).

[Charlie Brown]

I love the pips in the Hader. If I did more minors-only reading I'd try and acquire one, as it is, though, I don't really have a use for it.

I use the Grimaud frequently enough. My issue with it is that I find the line work to be a bit heavy. It's good for readings where each card stands more or less on its own, but I find it harder to blend the cards to together when reading from it. I much prefer the softness of Yves' Burdel reproduction because I can look at a line of five, say, and see a single clear image/message.

Tag Jorret's Dodal looks delish. I might have to treat myself one day.

The Fournier is too underrated. It isn't profound but it does live and breathe. It's great for in person readings, especially in social contexts.

[Papageno]

Tag Jorret's Dodal looks delish. I might have to treat myself one day.

Tag Jorret? can you post a link or some pics?

[Charlie Brown]

https://www.etsy.com/shop/OldLenormandC ... =shop_sugg

Sadly, there's nothing up now, though because the store is closed for the pandemic.

[Papageno]

https://www.etsy.com/shop/OldLenormandC ... =shop_sugg

Sadly, there's nothing up now, though because the store is closed for the pandemic.

never heard of that name and can't Google anything with that spelling.

anyway, thanks, I know that Etsy shop.
I purchased a repro Lilac Dondorf Lenormand and a repro Oswald Wirth Majors from them over a year ago.

Yep, everybody is shut down. Yves Reynaud is also on hiatus, what's the point, La Poste in France isn't functioning (or just barely).
So my 1981 BP Grimaud is sitting in Paris while the seller is in lockdown mode.

[Charlie Brown]

She posts here from time to time. I would like a set of those majors myself. The later ones, I assume?

[Papageno]

She posts here from time to time. I would like a set of those majors myself. The later ones, I assume?

yes, circa 1926

https://www.etsy.com/listing/562099653/ ... ed_listing

[_R_]

Le Veritable Hadar, I can't reconcile myself with golden light emanating from the crown of La Papesse and other cards.
(I don't own this one)

Jodorowsky-Camoin, technicolor TdM, very vibrant to say the least which I don't mind at all.
I'm amused by La Papesse and the egg which is a little odd, although I get it, but I'm not certain why some reviewers carry on about "the door" in Maison Dieu. Robert Place talks about it, a door is present in the so-called "Budapest Tarot".....inquiring minds want to know, why is "the door" so controversial?

The issues at stake boil down to a question of perceived authenticity, on the one hand, and interpretation, on the other. These two or three examples give a good idea of what is involved:

The light emanating from the crown of a number of figures, not only on Hadar's deck but also the Grimaud, may simply be down to crude stencilling rather than as an intended colouration. The egg on the Jodoworsky/Camoin apparently comes from the rather worn woodblock prints of the later Camoin reprint of the Conver deck, if I recall rightly. The door on the Maison-Dieu is not unprecedented, it occurs on the Budapest Tarot as Place points out, but also on the Jerger deck. In that instance, it is the mixing of canonical detail that caused the controversy.

Rather than creating a deck in conformity with a given iconographic canon, one ends up with a hybrid creation instead, one that is harder to justify on the basis of what has come before it, in other words, attachment to a tradition, as it were.

Naturally, later authors or deck creators will insist that these details have a deliberate significance. Others will claim this is over-interpretation, or bias confirmation. Your mileage may vary, as they say.

[Diana]

The door on the Maison-Dieu is not unprecedented, it occurs on the Budapest Tarot as Place points out, but also on the Jerger deck. In that instance, it is the mixing of canonical detail that caused the controversy.

_R_ : I went yesterday to try and find the original Budapest plate for the Maison Dieu, not the restored one (the one in the museums or private collections). As far as I could make out, the Maison Dieu in the Budapest doesn't have people falling out nor the lightning striking. Am I mistaken? Did I look at the wrong plate?

[Papageno]

The light emanating from the crown of a number of figures, not only on Hadar's deck but also the Grimaud, may simply be down to crude stencilling rather than as an intended colouration.

Thank you for expounding on these details.

With all due respect, I'm mystified by your statement about the Grimaud.
Which Grimaud are you referring to?
Surely not the Simon-Marteau, the images which by all accounts have remained very clean, straight forward and essentially identical for decades.

I just examined my copy of the 1760 Conver which was the basis for the Veritable Hadar and there is no evidence whatsoever of stenciling to create the effect of golden radiance emanating from La Papesse.

[Diana]

I just examined my copy of the 1760 Conver which was the basis for the Veritable Hadar and there is no evidence whatsoever of stenciling to create the effect of golden radiance emanating from La Papesse.

I have a vague memory that Kris Hadar told me once that this light was his own creation. All TdMs, except for the restored ones, have a little personal touch to them, otherwise they would just be restorations. Like the bees in the Isis. I can't swear under oath on the Tarot that Kris told me this, but I seem to recall it. I wish I'd kept our correspondence. I can't even remember which email account I had at the time. I could maybe try and find a means to contact him again and ask him.

[_R_]

With all due respect, I'm mystified by your statement about the Grimaud.
Which Grimaud are you referring to?
Surely not the Simon-Marteau, the images which by all accounts have remained very clean, straight forward and essentially identical for decades.

I just examined my copy of the 1760 Conver which was the basis for the Veritable Hadar and there is no evidence whatsoever of stenciling to create the effect of golden radiance emanating from La Papesse.

Take a look at Justice and the King of Swords in the Grimaud, that's what I meant.

_R_ : I went yesterday to try and find the original Budapest plate for the Maison Dieu, not the restored one (the one in the museums or private collections). As far as I could make out, the Maison Dieu in the Budapest doesn't have people falling out nor the lightning striking. Am I mistaken? Did I look at the wrong plate?

You can see the tower upside-down here: https://tarotheritage.files.wordpress.c ... -sheet.jpg
There are no people, but there is a door instead.

[Diana]

You can see the tower upside-down here: https://tarotheritage.files.wordpress.c ... -sheet.jpg
There are no people, but there is a door instead.

Thanks for that. Yes, that's the plate I was looking at. No people. This begs the question as to what a TdM is. Papageno and I thought a dedicated thread as to what a TdM is and what it isn't could make for some good discussions and debate. But we thought not in this thread as it would sort of derail its purpose.

The Vievillle is a case in point - is it a TdM? I'm not giving my opinion here but it's just to illustrate my propos.

[Papageno]

I went yesterday to try and find the original Budapest plate for the Maison Dieu, not the restored one (the one in the museums or private collections). As far as I could make out, the Maison Dieu in the Budapest doesn't have people falling out nor the lightning striking. Am I mistaken? Did I look at the wrong plate?

I just watched the walkthrough video for the Sullivan Hismans and compared his Tower to the Robert Place Tower and they are essentially identical.

There are no victims being catapulted, although there is certainly lightning. The placement of the structure in relation to the two trees s identical.
The architecture is essentially identical, even the steps leading up to the door.
The only difference is that Place illustrated the top of the structure with 2 windows (facing front) as opposed to Hismans 3 windows (2 facing front, 1 window adjacent).
There are obvious stylistic differences that account for the interpretation of some of the other minor details, but they're basically identical for all intents and purposes.
This suggests that Maison Dieu was NOT one of the images that were fragmented or incomplete and had to be reconstructed according to the artist's imagination.

[Papageno]

You can see the tower upside-down here: https://tarotheritage.files.wordpress.c ... -sheet.jpg
There are no people, but there is a door instead.

Ah, thanks for that, you have proved the point I just made.

[Papageno]

Take a look at Justice and the King of Swords in the Grimaud, that's what I meant.

It's more evident in the King/Swords so I understand your meaning.

However, it is very clear to me that in (The Veritable) Hadar's case it was intentional.....the effect is so exaggerated there can be no mistaking that for accidental stenciling or misprinting.

[Tag Jorrit]

https://www.etsy.com/shop/OldLenormandC ... =shop_sugg

Sadly, there's nothing up now, though because the store is closed for the pandemic.

Thanks, CB, glad you like my cards. The Dodal is also in my own shop here where all the tarots are up at my shop for viewing. However, since the printer is closed I am not taking orders.