A Maison Dieu XVI is not a Tower

[Belenus]

Hi Belenus, disagreeing with me is fine. That's what a forum is for: discussion. Do not underestimate, however, my knowledge of the Bible. I have written four books on the symbolism in the Bible and in one of them is an thorough analysis of the story of Babel, delving in the old Hebrew language. Your arguments refer to the literal text. There is however symbolism woven in the story. For this you have to go back to the original words and not the translations.

Babel can also be interpreted as Bab-El: door of God

This is as far as I will go, further discussions make me tired. I was just giving my interpretation (without telling somebody else they are wrong...). However, I am used to getting strong, emotional reactions to my writings.

Diana is correct. No emotional reaction from me. Far from it! But I do get frustrated when disagreement is immediately equated with "telling people they are wrong." Personally, I disagree with that equation. You will note I never said you are wrong. Differences of opinion are the core of discussions. Taking disagreements personally (unless they are an ad hominem attack) kill discussion, imho.

Since you never stated your education and expertise - it is logically impossible that I underestimated it. I did nothing of the kind. I highlighted mine - so that there is context to my comments. Simply put, thus no under or over estimation of my education could be at point of issue since it was explicitly offered.

I am confused however about a point you are making, and look forward to a discussion. The Hebrew in question in my comment is BETH- el is it not? Bab-el is not in the text of Jacob's dream. My point of the Jacob allusion was to make clear that there is a popular biblical story that DOES closely correspond to the card. Whereas nothing in the Babel story does - I note that there is not a door (Bab-el) in the TdM card's iconography (TdM); and as previously referenced the facts that there is no one tossed from the tower, no destruction of said tower, no lightning bolt, earthquake.

Finally, while I can not prove it, based upon my studies of the medieval church - around the time of the formation of the TdM, and other decks all of which were originally playing cards - these cartographers were not immersed in esoteric Hebraic symbolisms, hidden textual referents, etc. These artists were probably schooled, as were all common folks of that era by popular sermons, plays, pageants, ecclesial art and architecture, etc. It is thus much more likely they did not know, nor encode, such Hebraic symbolism into La Maison Dieu - imho. But it is likely they knew of the popular story of "Jacob's ladder".

I look forward to further discussions, as my knowledge and experience improves, and thrives on a healthy debate and dialogue. Thanks.

Respectfully,
Belenus

[Diana]

Finally, while I can not prove it, based upon my studies of the medieval church - around the time of the formation of the TdM, and other decks all of which were originally playing cards - these cartographers were not immersed in esoteric Hebraic symbolisms, hidden textual referents, etc. These artists were probably schooled, as were all common folks of that era by popular sermons, plays, pageants, ecclesial art and architecture, etc. It is thus much more likely they did not know, nor encode, such Hebraic symbolism into La Maison Dieu - imho. But it is likely they knew of the popular story of "Jacob's ladder".

They were hugely inspired and influenced by as you say architecture, and more specifically the sculptures on cathedrals. The Tarot is full of them. You can visit almost any old cathedral in France and you'll find yourself bang in a tarot deck.

Was it you who brought up Jacob's ladder already somewhere ? And I sort of dismissed it ? Or was it in Plato's Cave ? You're actually starting to intrigue me a bit here. But I think it's a long shot considering the sequence of the cards and the story(ies) they tell. I'll ponder on this when I have adequate time.

I think anyway a Tarot card has behind it many many inspirations. We'll never pin it down to one.

[Belenus]

They were hugely inspired and influenced by as you say architecture, and more specifically the sculptures on cathedrals. The Tarot is full of them. You can visit almost any old cathedral in France and you'll find yourself bang in a tarot deck.

I think anyway a Tarot card has behind it many many inspirations. We'll never pin it down to one.

YES! I love it Diana! "many, many inspirations"...and the "book" that everyone of them could read was simply - and profoundly - church art and architecture. Cathedrals and churches were a library, school room, and repository not only of religious faith, but also influences on popular culture and society. Card-makers, who were not theologians, esoteric adherents of secret sects, etc., were the recipients of many, many inspirations no doubt.

Belenus

[Diana]

YES! I love it Diana! "many, many inspirations"...and the "book" that everyone of them could read was simply - and profoundly - church art and architecture. Cathedrals and churches were a library, school room, and repository not only of religious faith, but also influences on popular culture and society. Card-makers, who were not theologians, esoteric adherents of secret sects, etc., were the recipients of many, many inspirations no doubt.

Belenus, not secret sects. But they were without doubt men who were steeped in esoteric, hermetic, alchemical and all the other relating issues. These were not just mere street painters trying to make a living by producing cards. There is something almost transcendent in the Tarot of Marseilles that, you will agree with me I know, can be found in no other tarot tradition. These men were inspired for their drawings by what you mention, but behind this was great knowledge. It cannot be otherwise. These are no mere playing cards. If I were exiled to a desert island, and the only thing I could take with me were three great spiritual books, a TdM would be the third. I'm not joking.

[A-M]

The concept of kundalini-awakening was well known in our culture in the 15th century. The knowledge is hidden, in art, in alchemy and in the tarot, amongst others. It is the main subject of the Bible. This is what I write books and articles about. The story van Jacob at Bethel is also a metaphor for a kundalini-awakening.

18Early the next morning, Jacob took the stone that he had placed under his head, and he set it up as a pillar. He poured oil on top of it,
19and he called that place Bethel, though previously the city had been named Luz. 20

The pillar he set up is the spine with the awakened kundalini flowing in it.The oil he poured on top of it is amrita: the changed brainfluids. Anointment is a metaphor for amrita.

In another Bible story about Jacob we read:
…29And Jacob inquired, “Please tell me your name.” But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed Jacob there. 30So Jacob named the place Peniel, saying, “Indeed, I have seen God face to face, and yet my life was spared.” 31The sun rose above him as he passed by Penuel, and he was limping because of his hip.…

Peniel is a reference to the pineal gland. The rising sun is his awakened consciousness. He is limping refers to the sublimation of the sexual energies (the angel hurt his "hip", a hebrew word that can mean anything in the area of the groins).

The angels going up and down from heaven to Jacob, in another quote, referred to in previous posts, is a metaphor for the kundalini energy flowing from Jacob's pelvis to his crown.

In the articles I have written so far (up to card number 10) I am arguing there is kundalini symbolism in all cards of the tarot. It is the "arcanum" that could not be communicated about in public. In three months or so I will be posting The Tower on my website. I will let you know when it is finished!

https://www.anne-marie.eu/en/

[Diana]

Ah, the pineal gland. The single eye. If thy eye be single thy whole body should be full of light.

I'll be extremely interested to read all you say, A-M. Bill Donahue is also big on the pineal gland and the Single Eye. He also talks of the chakras in the bible. I like listening to Donahue. He talks an awful lot of nonsense, but there are at the same time quite a lot of gems one can find if one has the patience to seek them out. And also he has a great sense of humour and I like that !

You absolutely have to come and tell us when your article is finished for your website ! I think it's fantastic that you've undertaken this particular study in relation to the Tarot.

[Diana]

The concept of kundalini-awakening was well known in our culture in the 15th century. The knowledge is hidden, in art, in alchemy and in the tarot, amongst others.

I at last took time to peruse your website (before I'd only clicked on the link and told myself to definitely return).

Goodness, I see what you mean. That's a tremendous website you have there. The research is impressive! And you're offering it all free to the world. Now you've probably gained at least a million good karma points for all this.

Everybody : please go and look at A-M's website. Spit spot as Mary Poppins would say.
https://www.anne-marie.eu/en/

[A-M]

Thanks Diana, you have a radiant heart and very pleasant, stimulating way of communicating (also to others on the forum). <3 A-M

[stronglove]

I think Maison Dieu refers to the tower of Babel. The tower that was build to conquer heaven/the divine, and that God destroyed... So it is a tower, but this tower is also a metaphor for de spine and the kundalini-energy. The Bible story is about the arrogance that the ego has to think he can take the divine (for instance by practicing kundalini yoga), instead of making oneself worthy of the divine. Babel means 'gate to God.

this is really interesting, i am rereading tomberg’s ‘meditations on the tarot’ and he takes a similar position about the tower card. what i like about tomberg is that he is not interested in discovering the ‘true’ (whatever that is) meaning of the card, but uses the image and his vast knowledge of different esoteric and religious doctrines for his meditations. thanks for your reference to kundalini, it gives me a new perspective on possible meanings/ interpretations of the tower card

[Diana]

I think Maison Dieu refers to the tower of Babel. The tower that was build to conquer heaven/the divine, and that God destroyed... So it is a tower, but this tower is also a metaphor for de spine and the kundalini-energy. The Bible story is about the arrogance that the ego has to think he can take the divine (for instance by practicing kundalini yoga), instead of making oneself worthy of the divine. Babel means 'gate to God.

this is really interesting, i am rereading tomberg’s ‘meditations on the tarot’ and he takes a similar position about the tower card. what i like about tomberg is that he is not interested in discovering the ‘true’ (whatever that is) meaning of the card, but uses the image and his vast knowledge of different esoteric and religious doctrines for his meditations. thanks for your reference to kundalini, it gives me a new perspective on possible meanings/ interpretations of the tower card

That's all very well. Except that the Tower of Babel was not destroyed. However, at the Pentecost, a tongue of flames descended onto the Apostles. I still think that the most likely explanation is this. There too they spoke in different tongues - but no longer in a state of confusion like with the Tower of Babel story, but in divine tongues. So if there is a hint to the Tower of Babel in this card (which I find really hard to accept), then let's say that God repeated his passion for language and linguistics, but this time he did it in a much more dignified manner.

And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

[A-M]

In the Bible it doesn't say that the tower was destroyed by God, but the text twice (!) says that God "came down", which symbolizes the retreat/descend of the kundalini energy, back into the pelvis. Thus the inner "tower" was "destroyed". The tarot designers knew about the symbolism of the Bible story (probably through a connection with the freemasons) and gave a visual interpretation of this "withdrawl" of God (which explains the slightly different versions of the Tower).

The confusion of languages is symbolism for the broken inner "unity" of man when God retreats. Our inner world is fragmented (ego-aspects, male/female duality, etc.)

[Diana]

Actually, the Pentecost is just a reversal, a mirror of the Tower of Babel story. Only this time, it's God who builds the temple, not man - and so instead of the confusion of languages, there is now a united language - a divine language. In the Hebrew scripture, God divides the people into 70 nations (according to the number of the Watchers). In the Gospels, Jesus appoints 70 disciples to go out speak the word. There are further indications that it's a mirror story but evolved.

So I think in this Arcanum we have both stories. Just like a tarot card that has an upright and reversed meaning.

[A-M]

Actually, the Pentecost is just a reversal, a mirror of the Tower of Babel story. Only this time, it's God who builds the temple, not man - and so instead of the confusion of languages, there is now a united language - a divine language. .

Yes!

[devin]

Back to Babel for a second: Isn't there an extra-biblical legend that does involve destruction and the tower's supposed architect, Nimrod, being thrown from its heights? This has popped up in art and literature. So, even if Babel has nothing to do with the original intent of card 16, it could be that the legend, in its extra-biblical form, is a later iconographic addition, and so still relevant.

I suppose another question could be to ask how useful the historical-critical method is to us as opposed to a more personal, contemplative, allegorical or revelatory view. This would inevitably open the door to the possibility of much error and needs qualification. But it is the traditional approach to such things.... especially if one takes a view of the TdM as a mystical device or artifact.

[Diana]

Back to Babel for a second: Isn't there an extra-biblical legend that does involve destruction and the tower's supposed architect, Nimrod, being thrown from its heights? This has popped up in art and literature. So, even if Babel has nothing to do with the original intent of card 16, it could be that the legend, in its extra-biblical form, is a later iconographic addition, and so still relevant.

I suppose another question could be to ask how useful the historical-critical method is to us as opposed to a more personal, contemplative, allegorical or revelatory view. This would inevitably open the door to the possibility of much error and needs qualification. But it is the traditional approach to such things.... especially if one takes a view of the TdM as a mystical device or artifact.

I mentioned Nimrod in a previous post. Here is what I wrote :

Josephus, in the Book of Jubilees which is part of Jewish scripture, speaks of Nimrod, and in Josephus states specifically that God resolves NOT to destroy the Tower, but decided to cause "a tumult among them, by producing in them diverse languages, and causing that, through the multitude of those languages, they should not be able to understand one another. The place wherein they built the tower is now called Babylon, because of the confusion of that language which they readily understood before; for the Hebrews mean by the word Babel, confusion ..."

I think Oswald Wirth saw Nimrod in his version of La Maison Dieu. He states specifically that one of the guys is the architect (he doesn't mention Nimrod by his name). He says that both guys die - one having his neck broken by a brick.

Your second paragraph requires much thought. And I will contemplate on this and comment if I have anything to say about it.

[devin]

Don't you hate people who don't read threads properly before they start yacking? Seriously, there should be a law!

To slightly rephrase my second comment: How does knowing that the Tower of Babel myth is an "etiological story of how human languages differentiated and evolved" help me to engage with the world, learn to love, run a farm, build a friendship, a community, etc. ?

[Diana]

Some people think the languages actually relate to different religions rather than language.

[Charlie Brown]

To slightly rephrase my second comment: How does knowing that the Tower of Babel myth is an "etiological story of how human languages differentiated and evolved" help me to engage with the world, learn to love, run a farm, build a friendship, a community, etc. ?

I might jump in. It seems to me that you're touching on the distinction between knowing what the cards mean (and, accordingly, how to use them) vs. why they mean what they mean and why they feature some features and/or not others.

So, it seems to me, that these kind of background hypotheses aren't necessary for reading the cards and likewise, won't necessarily improve one's readings. OTOH, I can see that certain kinds of readers could develop their reading style based on this...would historiography be the word? Probably not. In any event, so the Babel story is about languages evolving. Well, it's presented through the lens of hubris leading to disconnection. So, therefore, XVI (assuming you think it's representing Babel in some way) can be read as saying that the card's destructive power arises from our own hubris and our own disconnection from others around us. It reminds us that we are "speaking a different language" and aren't necessarily capapble of understanding the situation from another's perspective, at least not without work.

ETA: I don't know if any of that made any sense. It's early and I've been multi-tasking

[devin]

To slightly rephrase my second comment: How does knowing that the Tower of Babel myth is an "etiological story of how human languages differentiated and evolved" help me to engage with the world, learn to love, run a farm, build a friendship, a community, etc. ?

I might jump in. It seems to me that you're touching on the distinction between knowing what the cards mean (and, accordingly, how to use them) vs. why they mean what they mean and why they feature some features and/or not others.

So, it seems to me, that these kind of background hypotheses aren't necessary for reading the cards and likewise, won't necessarily improve one's readings. OTOH, I can see that certain kinds of readers could develop their reading style based on this...would historiography be the word? Probably not. In any event, so the Babel story is about languages evolving. Well, it's presented through the lens of hubris leading to disconnection. So, therefore, XVI (assuming you think it's representing Babel in some way) can be read as saying that the card's destructive power arises from our own hubris and our own disconnection from others around us. It reminds us that we are "speaking a different language" and aren't necessarily capapble of understanding the situation from another's perspective, at least not without work.

ETA: I don't know if any of that made any sense. It's early and I've been multi-tasking

Brother, you make perfect sense. And, yeah, historiography would be a very apt word, for sure. I think my only point was that historiography shouldn't blind us to the usefulness of more idiosyncratic or fluid interpretations - like chakras, maybe. I got thinking about this recently after reading a lot on the subject of traditional methods of contemplative interpretation. Methods in which the original intent of the author was not seen as being of particular importance. It's a more interactive method, a process, I suppose. Anyway, I think I'm the one that's battling to make sense lately (or maybe always!).

[KoyDeli]

La Maison Dieu

The four parts of a House .

Saulnier (regent of the University of Paris from 1413 to 1421) - following St. Bernard of Clairvaux - describes the four allegorical 'ways' of a house: the exterior, the interior, the above and the below. The exterior is the house of the holy Church, in which the good exercise the virtues and acquire merit for the life to come. The interior is called our conscience, in which God resides delicately, quietly and in secret. Below is the house of judgement and torment, the prison of the sovereign prince of hell. Above is the house of the sovereign King of paradise, in which the sovereign Emperor honours his friends.

In Saulnier, writing c1413 - 1421, we see an example of archaic French for the House of God, that is, he writes it maison Dieu, instead of maison de Dieu as in Modern French, in his quote of John 14:2: ‘En la maison Dieu mon pere a pluseurs mensions...' In the house of God my Father there are many mansions....

Here is his original French text, from "Livre de la maison de conscience" after 1413, for Cartherine d’Alencon:

"Et pource que a la mageste reale appartient a avoir pluseurs maisons et en chascune edifier et ordonner diverses mensions, ainsi le dit nostr sauveur Jhesucrist [John 14:2]: ‘En la maison Dieu mon pere a pluseurs mensions et habitiations’. Pour quoy est a entendre que selon la verite et doctrine de la saincte scripture il est quatre manieres de maisons, c’est assavoir la maison de dehors et la maison de dedens, la maison dessus et la maison dessoubz. La maison par dehors peult ester dicte la maison de saincte esglise; c’este la congregacion et assemble de tous bons crestiens, en laquelle chascun se doit occupier et excerciter en bonnes oevres et vertueses et acquerir merite pour la vie pardurable. En ceste maison le souvrain roy de gloire gouverne et adresse ceulx qui veulent bine labourer. La maison par dedens peult estere appellee nostre conscience, en laquelle Dieu se delicate habiter et demourer paisiblement et secretement ... La maison basse peult ester dicte la maison de jugement et de tourment. Ce la prison et la charter du du souverain prince qui est la charter d’enfer ... La maison dessus est la maison du roy souverain de paradis, en laquelle l’empereur souverain honoure ses amis et les coronne glorieusement."

[KoyDeli]

La Maison Dieu [House of God; synonyms Hotel Dieu, Domus Deus, l'Hopital]


Noblet, Vieville and probably the maker of the Anonymous Parisian were all members of the Parisian Guild of Cardmakers in the 17th century - Vieville appears in records from the 1640's to the 1664, Noblet from 1659 - 1664, all three as members of the Guild during that period more than likely knew each other and of each others work. All three decks we have of theirs has the same style of backs - probably members of the guild shared a common supplier for pre-printed backs {as apparently did card-makers in others regions, such as Rolichon.

Of the few Parision examples we have from the 17th century we have a change of name between them for Trump 16 - "Lightning" (Foudre - Vieville and the Anonymous) to Maison Dieu (Noblet) meaning among other things a Hospital (which was the most common usage for the time), synonymous with Hotel-Dieu. It may or may not be relevant, but I think it worth noting the circumstances of the cardmakers at that time and place (Paris, 1660's).

In 1661 the King had passed the tax farming rights, the rights to mark the cards, control manufacture and collect fees, to the directors of the Hotel Dieu, the 'Hôpital général de Paris'. He also ordained strict regulations, seeking to centralize card manufacturing to limit the possibilities of fraud. He thought by giving the rights to a charity then the makers would be more disinclined to defraud, and if they did, and were caught, the courts would judge them more harshly.

In 1663 the directors of the Hospital brought charges agains Master Cardmakers Guillaume Aubin, Jacques Viéville, Antoine Cacquelard, Jacques de Cault, Laurens Damiens, and Antoine Morin for rebellion and refusal to pay fees and to allow control of manufacturing. They were found guilty, and in handing out his sentence the Judge ordained that:

"... for the contravention made, by the above persons, to the letters patent obtained by the directors of the General Secretary for the mark and control, that they shall be sentenced to a fine of 300 pounds and your cards on them seized and confiscated for the benefit of the General Hospital, and forbids them to re-offend with greater penalties."

In 1664 a new contract between the Hospital and the Master Cardmakers, signed by among others our Jacques Vieville and Jean Noblet, it was agreed that, in lines with the ordination for manufacturing to be centralized, the Hospital would provide a property or neighbouring houses for the Master Cardmakers to rent, to house themselves, their workers, apprentices and families to live. The cardmakers themselves were liable to pay for all moving expenses, both household furniture and the presses and manufacturing equiptment. Molds were to be kept in a safe place, under lock and control of the Hospital. There was to be no movement of cards between offices or outside of the workshop, except for once a week, limited to 30 pounds of each deck, under the supervision of two masters and a clerk appointed by the Hospital.

Under such conditions, with ever-increasing taxes and draconian regulations, it is easy to understand why towards the end of the century many cardmakers moved on to more lenient regions. It is also easy to imagine I think, under such stressful conditions, the relief or amusement a cardmaker might find in the notion of La Maidon Dieu (the tax farmers) and its directors being struck by lightning... and no accident that what evidence we have (as limited as it is) suggests it is at this time that the card-makers of France re-conceived the Trump Foudre as 'La Maison Dieu'.

[Diana]

Fantastic and fascinating stuff, KoyDeli. What info do you have on those molds that were ordered to be destroyed at one time? I have only vague memories of the details and which king ordered them to be destroyed. It was also for tax and financial reasons if my memory serves me well. And that they had to remake the molds from memory?

[KoyDeli]

Fantastic and fascinating stuff, KoyDeli. What info do you have on those molds that were ordered to be destroyed at one time? I have only vague memories of the details and which king ordered them to be destroyed. It was also for tax and financial reasons if my memory serves me well. And that they had to remake the molds from memory?

The destruction of moulds, which was indeed related to taxes and their enforcement, was for french suited playing cards and to enforce regional patterns of such for tax regulation purposes. The edict did not apply to Tarot decks, in fact they were specifically exempted.

Unfortunately, many books and other sources describe the Royal Edict as if it included tarot decks, which has led to some confusion and erroneous beliefs - aka 'fake news' I'm afraid, which some otherwise generally respected authorities on tarot have repeated, relying on secondary sources without checking on the original edict.

The destruction of moulds I often see in various forums repeated as if it applied to Tarot, often with reference to respected tarot authors such as Floynoy, Place or Huson (for example, there are many others), please remember if you see such:

There was never any edict concerning the destruction of Tarot card moulds, the edict concerning the destruction of playing card moulds specifically excluded those for the manufacture of tarot decks.

edited to add: Having re-read the Edict - the tarot card-makers were exempted, unless or until their moulds were too worn or damaged to print from, in which case their moulds had to be broken too.
.

[Diana]

There was never any edict concerning the destruction of Tarot card moulds, the edict concerning the destruction of playing card moulds specifically excluded those for the manufacture of tarot decks.
.

Wow, now that's a snippet!! Thank you so much for this information. Where is this edict found? Is there a reference or something you can provide? This info about the destruction of tarot moulds was one of the first things I learned when I was reading about the TdM. Now I have to unlearn it it seems.

[KoyDeli]

Yes, I know it has become part of the popular myth surrounding tarot cards; unfortunately authors tend to just copy each other without checking primary sources, and such errors grow from there.

Normal playing card moulds were destroyed and the card-makers had to use the approved regional moulds kept at the Farmers (tax regulators) offices. They were however allowed to keep their tarot moulds and print the cards at home, but had to take the printed sheets to the Farmers to be registered and marked for tax purposes.


From the Royal Edict of 1701:

"Permettons néanmoins aux maîtres cartiers d'imprimer chez eux les cartes appelées tarots, ainsi qu'ils ont fait jusqu'à présent, à la charge de les apporter aux bureaux du fermier pour y être marquées comme ci-dessus et en être les droits payés: à l effet quoi, ils pourront conserver les planches qui leur ont servi jusqu à présent pour l'impression desdites cartes..."

"Let us nevertheless allow the master card-makers to print at home the cards called tarots, as they have done until now, on the charge of bringing them to the offices of the farmer to be marked there as above and to be their rights paid: to the effect that they will be able to keep the plates which they used until now for the printing of the said cards: "

On the 9 regional playing card patterns imposed upon French card-makers in the Royal Edict of 1701 see for example here:
http://whiteknucklecards.com/history/frenchregions.html

Note too, if you look at tarot decks from the 18th century you won't find 'tax marks' [except for exception below, re; cards for export] - usually the envelopes were stamped and/or each pack had to be wrapped in an official printed band.

At some times and in some regions cards for the domestic market had to be printed on approved watermarked sheets of paper, and cards for export were printed on plain paper ('free' paper - meaning tax-free), from the 1701 Royal Edict cards for export had to have Franc pour l'Etranger stamped on them.