Lon Milo DuQuette: The Man We Want to Hang With

[Joan Marie]

When I acquired my first Thoth Tarot deck, I did what I thought was sensible and with great excitement and optimism, also purchased Aleister Crowley’s The Book of Thoth. I’d read some Crowley before, his novels and poetry which I liked very much. I knew with The Book of Thoth I’d be in for a challenge. But I did not anticipate just how difficult that book would prove to be for me. I felt lost and as though I might never find an entry to the world of the enigmatic Thoth deck.

Then Lon Milo DuQuette’s simply and accurately titled, Understanding Aleister Crowley’s Thoth Tarot came into my life. It changed everything. With his easy graceful style, sense of humour, and vast knowledge of all things occult, Lon was able to open the doors of the Thoth for me, inviting me to share in this place of beauty and magick. After reading Lon’s book I was able to return to Crowley’s work, this time with a stronger basis and new perspective.

Lon Milo DuQuette is the author of dozens of books on a whole host of occult topics.

A sample of some of Lon Milo DuQuette's titles

Lon is also an accomplished musician, teacher and lecturer. Much more about all of his accomplishments and credentials is easy to find and will take you down a really deep and completely fascinating rabbit hole. You can start with some of the links at the end of this.

Lon calls himself, “the laziest man in the world” but his vast works belie that. Could it be that he enjoys what he does so much that what would feel like work to most is just second nature to him?

I recently heard about the re-release of the deck he created back in the 90’s, Tarot of Ceremonial Magick which has been out-of-print for years and only available in extremely pricey and very rare offerings on E-Bay and the like. Now teamed up with Magical Omaha the deck and companion book of the same name are available again in a beautiful new, and affordable, edition.

I recently contacted Lon to ask about the re-release and he very kindly agreed to this interview for us here at Cult of Tarot. He also graciously indulged a few other questions of mine, and in the very first one, we learn something surprising that Lon and I have in common…
--

JM: When I was a little girl growing up in Nebraska, my friends (from Catholic School) and I had slumber parties nearly every weekend. After some ritual consumption of junk food and pop, and after a few rounds of crank phone calls, we’d break out the Ouija board (we all had one) light some candles and spend the rest of the evening conjuring spirits. After that we’d do a few rounds of “Stiff as a board - light as a feather” (which works by the way) and fall asleep telling scary stories in the dark. (If only we’d had Tarot Cards!)

Contrary to most people’s stereotype of little girl slumber parties, we were not braiding each others hair and talking about boys. We were scared during our séances and occult-y otherworldly games. And we liked being scared. It was fun and we felt challenged, curious, and excited in ways ou everyday world couldn’t compete with.

Lon, what do you think brings people to the occult? What makes them go beyond the fear they are taught to have and dive into “the darkness?”

LMD: "Occult" simply means "hidden", and honestly, who isn't fascinated by mysteries and hidden knowledge? When I was growing up (also in Nebraska) I was bored to tears by what appeared to me to be the illogical and anemic tenets of Protestant Christianity. I could find not a spec of mystery or a hint of unspoken awe. I recall one summer when I had the opportunity to secretly slip into our neighborhood Roman Catholic church and witness the pomp and awesome majesty of the Mass, chanted in Latin complete with magick robes, billowing incense, bells and a choir of angelic voices, also singing in Latin. I was impressed! Not by doctrine or dogma or anything about what the Mass was showing me ... but rather, I was impressed by what was not being shown to me -- moved, elevated, delighted, awed, ecstatically blissed-out by the pure mystery meant for my soul and my soul alone.

We are all yearning to wed that sweet mystery, and deep down inside each of us knows that it is something that lies just beneath the surface of the things we love and are drawn to. Every artist knows what I'm talking about. Magick is an art, and every magician is an artist. You don't need to ask an artist "...what makes them go beyond the fear ....and dive into 'the darkness'...” The artist knows if she or he can't find the light in that darkness they will never be able to find it anywhere.

JM: That is so true what you say about the Catholic Mass. I didn’t appreciate the elaborate presentations of it until after I had left, occasionally returning, usually because of a death.

I’d like to ask about boundaries. I know a lot of people will read Tarot or engage in other esoteric practices, but draw a hard line at Ouija boards. Or at any mention of Satan. I know there are people who have even been
put off by the name of our forum, Cult of Tarot! What do you think
these boundaries represent?

LMD: Fear and superstition. Fear is poison... poison to your life and poison to your magick. Magick requires a mature and unsuperstitious spiritual world-view. Ouija experimentation is often (but not always) practiced for the purposes of entertainment and casual experimentation, or else resorted to by superstitious, desperate, and fearful dabblers. It is not divination per se, such as a Tarot or I Ching operation. As for the concept of Satan and the Devil and all the 'dark side' nonsense I'll say this:
If your idea of God is so small and limited that there still is room for an opposite being that is Satan.... Then your "God" is too small to be GOD.
Furthermore....
If your idea of Good is so small and limited that there is still room for an opposite concept that is Evil ... Then your "Good" ain't GOOD enough!

JM: My favorite “Crowley-ism” is: “Every man and Every Woman is a
Star”
First, it always sets off an earworm of that beautiful song from Sly and Family Stone. But then, I find it such a humanist concept in the sense that it makes us all not only equal but raises us all up. I also very much appreciate that he specified “every man and every woman.” It feels so much more inclusive than if he had just said “everyone” or, what is heard more typically, “every man” and women are just supposed to assume that means them too.
Could share with us what “Every man and Every Woman is a Star” means to you?

LMD: Every man and every woman is a sovereign consciousness-unit and a perfect fractal reflection of the Supreme Singularity. Like stars, we each (at any given moment) have our own unique and particular place in the great scheme of things, and our own unique and particular duty to the cosmos. You and I are stars ... absolutely necessary to the totality of existence itself.

Like the stars in space, we each have our own "WILL", that is, our own position, trajectory, velocity, magnetic charge, gravitational properties, and function in the universe. We are self-radiating stars.... not planets orbiting stars, not cold moons orbiting planets. Each of us is the absolute center of the universe, the main character ... the Star of the master-movie of existence.

JM: I’d like to ask you about sacred spaces. I’ve often found that when I go to a place with the idea ahead of time that it is sacred or magical in some way, the anticipation or expectation somehow sort of “flattens” the experience. This is not the fault of the place of course. It isn’t Stonehenge’s fault that people go there and are left a little cold, or end up needing to invent an experience for themselves.
On the other hand, I have had deeply spiritual experiences totally by surprise in places that I later learned had a “sacred reputation.”
I have a question that may sound a bit odd, but I’d like to know how do sacred spaces work? Can you give any advice on how one should approach a visit to a sacred or powerful place? How, (or even if) someone should prepare themselves so that the energy of the place can communicate itself?

LMD: We carry the sacred place within us. As mystics, we close our eyes in meditation and withdraw to sacred space within. As magicians, we act out the drawing-in process by casting the magick circle to represent the cosmos and position ourselves in the center of it to work our work. However, the real circle we are casting is not on the floor of our garage (or bedroom, or living room, or backyard) Temple ... it is in the Temple of our own soul whose door is opened by our will and imagination.

JM. Are you familiar with the films of Kenneth Anger?
His work was highly influenced by Aleister Crowley and one of his last films, “The Man We Want to Hang” was a documentary about Crowley’s artwork.

LMD: Indeed I am. Kenneth has been a magical colleague and friend of the DuQuette family since the early 80s. He is absolutely brilliant.

JM: Your deck, Tarot of Ceremonial Magick, reminds me in some ways of Crowley’s artwork. Moreso on some cards than others, but your use of
color and shapes reminds me more of Crowley and less of Lady Harris. Of course, the style is distinctly your own, but can you say how Crowley’s style may have influenced yours?

LMD: When interviewers comment on my songwriting style or my guitar technique I always respond by confessing I have no style. I don't strive to develop a style. I don't try to dazzle with technique. I don't even think about it. I just do the best I can to get through the freakin' song or finish the book!"

I'm sure I have been influenced by many things. But to tell you the truth, I am the laziest person in the world, and while I respect, appreciate and enjoy great literary and musical talents, I am just too damned lazy to put forth an effort to master another artist's technique or style in writing or music. Whatever 'technique' or 'style' I have is purely incidental and serves only to provide a vessel for my message.


JM: Do you know or can you guess why Crowley didn’t illustrate his own
deck? That would have been amazing!

LMD: Yes it would have been. If you've read my book, Understanding Aleister Crowley's Thoth Tarot, you'll remember that he was kind of winding down his activities and he was happy to have an artist of Frieda Harris' stature do the heavy lifting.

JM: Tarot of Ceremonial Magick, after being out of print for some time, has been re-released. Can you tell us how that came about?

LMD: I did not set out to create a Tarot deck (after all, I'm the laziest man in the world). It all came about from a chain reaction of accidental necessities relating to a series of weekly magick classes Constance and I have hosted in our home since 1979.

At first, I just wanted us to learn about the traditional 72 Spirits of the Goetia. They are organized in pairs, one for the Day and one for the Night, for each of the 36 Decans (periods of 10 degrees) of the Zodiacal year. So I bought a whole bunch of plain white 3 x 5 index cards and glued cutouts of the magick seals of the 36 pairs of spirits on 36 of the cards and scribbled the degrees of the zodiac they resided in along with the approximate days of the year their decan represents.

The demon cards were a great hit at class. I laid out all 36 in a big circle on the floor and the wheel represented the entire year. Class members excited divided the circle into Signs of the Zodiac and found their own birthday cards and could easily see all sorts of concepts that are usually presented in dull charts and graphs. So I promised to develop this further in the next week's class.

Next week I had added the names of the traditional 72 Qabalistic Angels of the Shemhamphorash which are also assigned in pairs to the 36 Decans and while I was at it I added the name of each of the 36 Small Cards of the Tarot (the 2 -10 of each of the 4 suits). Now class was getting really excited and go 3 x 5 cards of their own and got to work.

The following week I realized that "Hell! these 36 small cards are also assigned to the 36 Angelic Squares of the Elemental Tablets of the Enochian Magick of Dr. John Dee ... and that each of the squares also has a Planetary and Zodiacal association so I added the Enochian Square with planet and sign.

Week followed week and came the Aces and Court Cards and all their associations until there was a pile of information organized on (by now) 56 cards (I must point out, I hadn't even considered putting images on the cards or treating this as a publishable Tarot deck.)

Obviously, that would change. The last phase was the creation of the 22 Cards of the Greater Arcana and the struggle to make line drawings for each of the 78 cards. A couple of years later when I had finished that and cleaned up all the magical images, I gave Constance a list of colors that are qabalistically associated with each card and its Hebrew letter and planet and zodiac sign and path on the Tree of Life and prevailed upon her to paint the cards strictly using only the appropriately assigned colors.

Then, I and a friend jumped in his car and drove from Newport Beach California to Miami Fla to the BookExpo America where I showed the deck to Stewart Kaplan of US Games Systems who immediately agreed to publish them. While I was there I talked to Donald Weiser who agreed to publish the book that would accompany the cards. Simple as that!

US Games sold two full print runs of 10K each and finally after 11 years let the deck go out of print and all rights returned to me. For several years only used decks could be purchased and people were asking ridiculous prices on eBay for it. After a couple of years the publisher of my novel, Accidental Christ, went through the hell of getting a small number of a second, or Babalon Edition, manufactured. But they by necessity had to be rather expensive and they soon were sold out. Then, three years of being out of print again, Next Millennium of Omaha recognized the value of this magical objet d'art pushed ahead with the finest edition of the deck every printed.


JM: The Tarot of Ceremonial Magick (and its companion book of the same name) take the user on a journey of learning the 3 pillars of Magick: Astrology, Enochian Magick and Goetia.
“Real Magick in a Box” it says on the cover of an older edition of the deck. I think most of us are familiar with reading Tarot, but can you tell us a bit about how Tarot (and this deck specifically) can be used for performing magick ceremonies and rituals?

LMD: Besides its obvious value as a focus for meditation or astral projection, the deck itself can be organized and laid out the floor to:

• Form a magical circle of evocation, (and locate specific spirits for that evocation... the book has full directions for the preliminary banishings, purifications, and invocations...plus the attributes and 'skills' associated with each of the 72 spirits.

• The Ace, Court Cards, and Small Cards and be organized and laid out to form the elemental magick "furniture" necessary to identify and specifically call the Angels of the Elemental Tablets of the system....again, the book has full directions complete with the Calls in the Angelic language with their English translations. This deck is my portable temple. I have used it scores of times to turn my hotel room into a magical operating space.

JM: Lon, the world has changed a lot since this deck was first released in 1995. Your deck and book are now reaching people who were very young or maybe not even born yet when they first came out.
Do you have any thoughts about how the current worldview might be affecting, or even fueling a rising interest in the Tarot and other esoteric and occult topics? And how does Tarot of Ceremonial Magick fit in or serve this world view?

LMD: I really don't know. I know human consciousness goes through cycles and we appear to be going through quite a wild one at the moment. The best we can do is do the best we can while we work on the things that are obviously in front of us to work on.

Magick is an art, and no particular art form is right for everybody...indeed, not everyone is cut out to be an artist. The nice thing about tarot is a person can enjoy it, work with it, tell fortunes with it....all without feeling obliged to know or care about any of this Qabalistic or magical stuff. So..... if everything I've just talked about in this interview doesn't interest you in the slightest .... please feel free to buy and enjoy TAROT OF CEREMONIAL MAGICK.

JM: I want to thank you so much for doing this interview. Is there anything you’d like to add or leave us with?

LMD: Love one another.

--

Nice.

It was so great of Lon to take the time for us here and share some of his insights. I have a million follow-up questions now. Maybe you do to. Post them here and maybe when Lon next visits us, he’ll stop and answer a few.

You can order Lon’s Tarot of Ceremonial Magick from Magical Omaha

You can see a nice unboxing/review of it here:



Check out Lon’s youtube channel for Ninety Three Records. He’s a wonderful songwriter and performer.


His books are widely available and when you see the intriguing titles, you’ll want to order at least a six-pack.

[Diana]

If your idea of God is so small and limited that there still is room for an opposite being that is Satan.... Then your "God" is too small to be GOD.
Furthermore....
If your idea of Good is so small and limited that there is still room for an opposite concept that is Evil ... Then your "Good" ain't GOOD enough!

That must be the coolest thing I've heard for a long time! I've never heard it put this way - then your god is too small. Super duper.

Fascinating interview Joan Marie. Thanks so much for sharing.

Edited to add : Satan ? Is that Crowley jargon ?

[Joan Marie]

I've been thinking about a couple of things from this interview.

First, that Lon calls himself "the laziest man on earth" despite his vast legacy of brilliant work.
And the other thing is his story of how he got his deck and companion book published, making it sound like a breeze, saying it was "simple as that!"

What I'm wondering about is the idea of "flow," of being so in the zone with something that bringing it out, bringing it to fruition happens in, ..not exactly a trance state, but something close to that. A state where your actions, your ideas all seem to be streaming, flowing toward something so naturally, so easily, that even though you may be expending a lot of what looks like work, really you are just riding a wave and there is no need to even try and control or steer things, just keep riding the wave.

And to bring this to the subject of magick, I once heard that magick isn't about trying to control things or imposing your will on a situation, but about learning to let go, to trust. You'll be able to skirt easily around the obstacles. You'll be tuned in to the environment, to people and things come more easily, or at least it feels that way because since you aren't trying to control everything, you're having more fun.

[Joan Marie]

And to bring this to the subject of magick, I once heard that magick isn't about trying to control things or imposing your will on a situation, but about learning to let go, to trust. You'll be able to skirt easily around the obstacles. You'll be tuned in to the environment, to people and things come more easily, or at least it feels that way because since you aren't trying to control everything, you're having more fun.

I got into my little Crowley library tonight (I think I posted somewhere a while back about a collection of his books and other writings we were gifted) and in the introduction to his unfinished novel "The Fish" appears this reference to Crowley's "Comment" (an addendum to the The Book of the Law I think). He's referring to how we now understand that the sun does not in fact die every day and then miraculously resurrect. The following line exemplifies what I was clumsily trying to express above:

Our evil, darkness, illusion, whatever one chooses to call it, is simply a phenomenon of accidental, temporary separateness. If you are walking in darkness, do not try to make the sun rise by self-sacrifice, but wait in confidence for the dawn, and enjoy the pleasures of the night meanwhile.

This really strikes me as some important words to remember.

It also makes me think of one of my favourite films, The Out of Towners (the original one with Jack Lemmon and Sandy Dennis). The main character is a guy who is utterly incapable of "waiting in confidence for the dawn." It does not go well for him.

[Diana]

What I'm wondering about is the idea of "flow," of being so in the zone with something that bringing it out, bringing it to fruition happens in, ..not exactly a trance state, but something close to that. A state where your actions, your ideas all seem to be streaming, flowing toward something so naturally, so easily, that even though you may be expending a lot of what looks like work, really you are just riding a wave and there is no need to even try and control or steer things, just keep riding the wave.

And to bring this to the subject of magick, I once heard that magick isn't about trying to control things or imposing your will on a situation, but about learning to let go, to trust. You'll be able to skirt easily around the obstacles. You'll be tuned in to the environment, to people and things come more easily, or at least it feels that way because since you aren't trying to control everything, you're having more fun.

Shouldn't this flow you describe so well be what we ought to be doing constantly, every waking moment of our life ? Shouldn't we always be putting aside our ego and let that stream (whatever we choose to call it - in my jargon it would be "the will of god - or divine will) do the work ?) It's very arrogant of man (generic man) to think he has power of his own. That's the whole Tower of Babel story. We saw what happened to that !!

If a magician tries to create his own magic(k), it can go very wrong at the worst, and bears little fruit at the best.

The last thing we need when we're creating "magic(k)" (or miracles) is our own ego getting in the way.

I'm having to put my own personal feelings about Crowley and Thelema aside when I read this thread. That is also part of trying not to let my ego rule my life. I am hugely suspicious you see of people who walk around in funny robes with magic(k) wands.

But I really loved reading this interview and also your comments, Joan Marie.

[Joan Marie]

I am hugely suspicious you see of people who walk around in funny robes with magic(k) wands.

A fairly apt description of a Catholic Mass, no?

[Diana]

A fairly apt description of a Catholic Mass, no?

LOL and lol again.

[dodalisque]

Thanks for the interview, JM. Lon is my favourite writer on the occult - clear, eloquent, and humorous, and so overpoweringly sane that I cannot think of a better spokesperson for the western tradition of spirituality. He has a unique talent for explaining difficult concepts in a way that is instantly understandable.

[Joan Marie]

Thanks for the interview, JM. Lon is my favourite writer on the occult - clear, eloquent, and humorous, and so overpoweringly sane that I cannot think of a better spokesperson for the western tradition of spirituality. He has a unique talent for explaining difficult concepts in a way that is instantly understandable.

Yes he does. I just re-read this interview after not looking at it for a while, and he has shared with us, despite my clumsy questioning, some very beautiful and important insights. I'm so grateful to him for his generosity in doing this.

[reall]

*We Are All Made of Stars is True fact so that part is my fav!^^ & agree with JM i've noticed when things just flow i take it we are on good path that is already made for things to happen & magic if you like!;
Lon my fav author even i'm yet to*dive into thoth I was WoW reading his book as it's full of these *symbology revelations I like!

also interview section my fav!^^ enjoy reading about how great people do great work? it's best rolemodel!^^ so Thank You for Sharing your experience knowledge & wonderful ideas with us it's all appreciated!^^

[Papageno]

interesting thread, DuQuette just bubbled to the surface in my brain a few days ago as a name I'd heard of a long time ago.

I just order his revised book on the Thoth Tarot: Understanding Aleister Crowley's Thoth Tarot: New Edition, 2017

good to read positive reviews here, even if it's after the fact.

[Pen]

Great interview - Lon hits the perfect note to make all his writing accessible and entertaining. I wish he would do more audio books as I'm having to save my eyes for artwork and cut down on screen time these days and they're a godsend.

[dodalisque]

Our evil, darkness, illusion, whatever one chooses to call it, is simply a phenomenon of accidental, temporary separateness. If you are walking in darkness, do not try to make the sun rise by self-sacrifice, but wait in confidence for the dawn, and enjoy the pleasures of the night meanwhile.

This really strikes me as some important words to remember.

Further to what Lon says about Satan, I would also like to register a complaint about that ridiculous concept. I should add that the tarot, which only has only one card, The Devil (XV), out of 78 cards remotely associated with the idea, and he(?) is a ridiculous figure with fake breasts, fake penis, fake horns. He is a fake, period. The tarot seems to be saying that the whole idea of a Devil is fake news.

To propose the idea of God vs. Satan, Good vs. Evil, Black vs White is called the philosophy of Dualism, isn't it? And it's wrong, or perhaps "not useful" is a better term. It's more helpful to think in terms of greater or lesser good, of greater awareness or ignorance, of wider or narrower consciousness. Some behaviours promote a widening of consciousness and some a restriction.

JM, your question about darkness and Crowley and evil was answered brilliantly by Lon. He has written a book called "Horror and the Occult", I believe. What is at the root of our fear of darkness is mystery and awe.The greatest fear of our limited mind is of wider consciousness. It fears it will be lost if it surrenders to immensity. That must be why the ropes loosely binding the two people on the Devil card are around their necks. This separates the head or intellectual function from the lower body. Insanity can only happen in the mind, as Osho says. Those loose ropes can be slipped off their necks at any time. Their hands may not even be tied behind their backs.

We are afraid of death and of pain and of insanity because they all represent states not governed by our ego, but that fear comes from the ego. Those depths - or heights - in the spiritual world they are the same thing - are part of our total self, so we should work to transform restricting fears into liberating power, and work to embrace our total self. Ghost stories and ritual magic demonstrate an admirable courage to confront and triumph over fear.

I often wonder if the recent craze for tattoos isn't meant to advertise to the world, and to ourselves, that we can tolerate pain and fear. Heavy Metal music is also a sort of badge to enable adventurers to recognise each other. People who are not afraid of the dark. Having said that, it's not a path for everyone. There are safer and slower paths that take us to the same goal of personal spiritual expansion. I admit, as much as I admire him, Lon's way is not for me - I'm too chicken and not evolved enough - I don't skydive into caves for kicks either - but for someone is a hurry to evolve it sounds like fun.

[Diana]

Further to what Lon says about Satan, I would also like to register a complaint about that ridiculous concept. I should add that the tarot, which only has only one card, The Devil (XV), out of 78 cards remotely associated with the idea, and he(?) is a ridiculous figure with fake breasts, fake penis, fake horns. He is a fake, period. The tarot seems to be saying that the whole idea of a Devil is fake news.

The Devil in the tarot always reminds me of the Magician behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz. All smoke and fire but it's an illusion. It took a dog to figure that one out. Maybe the dog that is pestering the Fool.

As to your observations on tattoos. I think people are desperately trying to find some kind of identity that they can show to the world, and to themselves. There are no more tribes or clans anymore. People are adrift. So they place their own "tribal" personal mark on their skins. THIS IS ME, they shout. And they recognise each other sometimes with their tattoos. Some of them are very tribal in nature.

[Joan Marie]

Regarding tattoos, I would love to hear to hear from someone who has them.
However, I suspect, that the reasons are very personal. You'll find this out if you ever start asking people to show or explain their tattoos to you.
It's generally considered rude to do that. I've been told that by people with a lot of tattoos. So I kind of doubt people get them to "shout to the world." I think they are far more of a personal journey.

And I also suspect it has more to do with the act of getting the tattoo than the tattoo itself. But I don't have any so I can't say I know. I have thought about it though and for myself, I tend toward what dodalisque speculates, that it has to do with pain and fear and enduring and getting past it. That's a powerful thing.

And I think it's proliferating not so much because people feel "adrift" as much as because it is more acceptable now (people won't judge you for it and you'll still get a job) and they are easier to acquire. Therefore more people can take part.I think it's such a personal thing, such a commitment, and requiring so much personal strength, that the intensity of the experience is still felt by the individual despite the prevalence. I'm pretty sure getting a tattoo changes you.

[Diana]

It can also be very addictive. That's anyway what some friends of mine tell me who are covered with tattoos. One is so covered that he looks like some kind of creature - hardly human. His whole head is black for instance.

It could be also an addiction to the pain. Another friend I have who has mental health issues told me also that she gets tattoos to dull her inner pain. She said if she didn't get tattoos, she'd probably be cutting herself. She also is slowly having her whole skin covered.

I suppose the reasons are multiple. Hard to pinpoint it to just one reason. But I think underlying it all is a quest for some kind of identity.

[Joan Marie]

To propose the idea of God vs. Satan, Good vs. Evil, Black vs White is called the philosophy of Dualism, isn't it? And it's wrong, or perhaps "not useful" is a better term. It's more helpful to think in terms of greater or lesser good, of greater awareness or ignorance, of wider or narrower consciousness. Some behaviours promote a widening of consciousness and some a restriction.

I might take this just a smidge further.

Your comment reminded me of something from Anna Karenina. Anna is being teased (chastised really) for the amount of affection and care she shows a child that she's taken in compared to what she shows her own children. Count Vronsky says something like " Anyone would think you love her more than your own children." Anna's reply has always stuck with me.

She says with a bit of exasperation, (not an exact quote) "There is no such thing as more love or less love. There are only different kinds of love. I love the little girl differently than I love my children. I love each of my children differently from each other. I love you differently than I love my children. I loved my mother differently than I loved my father. But I have truly loved you all with the fullness of my heart."

I always feel like she wanted to add "Sorry if that disappoints you."

So maybe there are also different kinds of awareness, and of consciousness and of good, etc. Each can be completely whole and complete within itself without any requirement to measure or compare it. They aren't relative, not in a dualistic sense nor in amount.

If that's true, it's a very freeing concept because it eliminates the idea of wanting or needing to attain "more" (or less) of any of these things.

[Pen]

Joan Marie wrote:

"There is no such thing as more love or less love. There are only different kinds of love. I love the little girl differently than I love my children. I love each of my children differently from each other. I love you differently than I love my children. I loved my mother differently than I loved my father. But I have truly loved you all with the fullness of my heart."

Browsing through the forum yesterday I clicked on an advert about spell-casting out of curiosity. It began with a short questionnaire; one of the questions was something like "Which of these is more important to you?" I can't remember what the others were, but as love was clearly the most important of them I clicked on love. More questions, then an analysis of my magical potential (easily done after all the questions I'd answered) and the advice regarding spell-casting. I've always thought that we need many more words for different kinds of love and the advice that followed proved it, because it revolved around finding someone (nowhere on my list of desires!) and ignored all the other kinds.

Yet other loves are equally - if not more important - than the usually assumed definition of love, as it's all too easy to be deluded by hormones and pheromones. I love my children, my grandchildren, other connections and all the dogs and animals I've ever known, spirits who have left this beautiful Earth of ours and.... I could go on, but...

We do need more words for Love.

[dodalisque]

As to your observations on tattoos. I think people are desperately trying to find some kind of identity that they can show to the world, and to themselves. There are no more tribes or clans anymore. People are adrift. So they place their own "tribal" personal mark on their skins. THIS IS ME, they shout. And they recognise each other sometimes with their tattoos. Some of them are very tribal in nature.

I think you're right. But since we are on a tarot site I thought I should spin it as as alchemical transformation of pain into beauty.

[dodalisque]

It can also be very addictive.

The pain is a massive endorphine rush. Like in BDSM, spanking and such like, you go down howling and come up laughing. I must have read that somewhere obviously.

[Rose Lalonde]

Regarding tattoos, I would love to hear to hear from someone who has them...

I have a few. I got one in my twenties while my father was terminally ill that had to do with him (he liked it), and another shortly after for my mother and her strength during that time. Later, when she also died, I got a large tattoo across my back that represents the three of us and my husband as compass points. For that one I had to travel to get to the artist I wanted. It's been many years since I've gotten a tattoo, but I haven't regretted them. It feels like a tribute to them and their love and support. (Plus I think the art is lovely.) Oddly enough it just came up the other day that someone I've been friends with for over 10 years didn't know my back is tattooed. I guess we've never been to the beach together.

[devin]

Further to what Lon says about Satan, I would also like to register a complaint about that ridiculous concept. I should add that the tarot, which only has only one card, The Devil (XV), out of 78 cards remotely associated with the idea, and he(?) is a ridiculous figure with fake breasts, fake penis, fake horns. He is a fake, period. The tarot seems to be saying that the whole idea of a Devil is fake news.

Leaving objective meaning aside for the moment, perhaps the Devil's (or devil's) strange features are a sign not of falsity but monstrosity. Monstrosity being the inevitable result of created creatures willfully stepping out of their place in the chain of being. Similarly, when humans abdicate their rightful place, above the animals but beneath the angels, they do not fall down the chain, becoming animals, but become monstrous instead - à la the imps in card XV.

We are afraid of death and of pain and of insanity because they all represent states not governed by our ego, but that fear comes from the ego. Those depths - or heights - in the spiritual world they are the same thing - are part of our total self, so we should work to transform restricting fears into liberating power, and work to embrace our total self. Ghost stories and ritual magic demonstrate an admirable courage to confront and triumph over fear.

Talking of insanity, surely we have to differentiate between transcendent experiences that are integrative and those of a dis-integrative and destructive nature. Huxley, in Heaven and Hell, noticed the line to be, on the one hand, rather thin, yet, at the same time, of vast, day and night, importance.

And must we not also draw a firm distinction between darkness, as in mystery, Dante or Moses at the summit and limit of perception, and darkness, as in evil.

I often wonder if the recent craze for tattoos isn't meant to advertise to the world, and to ourselves, that we can tolerate pain and fear.

They really don't hurt that much. It's more like an annoying scratching sensation that gets progressively more annoying and sensitive over time. Of course, some areas of the body are more sensitive than others.

[Diana]

Leaving objective meaning aside for the moment, perhaps the Devil's (or devil's) strange features are a sign not of falsity but monstrosity. Monstrosity being the inevitable result of created creatures willfully stepping out of their place in the chain of being. Similarly, when humans abdicate their rightful place, above the animals but beneath the angels, they do not fall down the chain, becoming animals, but become monstrous instead - à la the imps in card XV.

This made me think of a fallen angel (the first part of the quoted post. The second part was too clever not to leave). So I trotted off to wikipedia to read about fallen angels.

During the late Second Temple period, demons were not thought of as the fallen angels themselves, but as the surviving souls of their monstrous offspring. According to this interpretation, fallen angels have intercourse with human women, giving existence to the Biblical giants. To purge the world of these creatures, God sends the Great Deluge and their bodies are destroyed. However, their spiritual parts survive, henceforth roaming the earth as demons.

Talking of insanity, surely we have to differentiate between transcendent experiences that are integrative and those of a dis-integrative and destructive nature. Huxley, in Heaven and Hell, noticed the line to be, on the one hand, rather thin, yet, at the same time, of vast, day and night, importance.

And must we not also draw a firm distinction between darkness, as in mystery, Dante or Moses at the summit and limit of perception, and darkness, as in evil.

Why the Moses and Dante observation ? I've never read Dante. I've read Moses but am unsure of what you mean here.

[dodalisque]

Talking of insanity, surely we have to differentiate between transcendent experiences that are integrative and those of a dis-integrative and destructive nature. Huxley, in Heaven and Hell, noticed the line to be, on the one hand, rather thin, yet, at the same time, of vast, day and night, importance.

I don't know if there is a "line" so much as an infinite continuum. One man's dis-integrative experience might be relatively integrative for someone else. A worm would transform himself positively if he evolved to the stage where he could feel, say, hate. I think that idea of a line is precisely the distinction between Heaven and Hell that I object to. (I always liked that William Blake aphorism, "The cut worm forgives the plough". But it kind of explodes my worm analogy.)

[devin]

This made me think of a fallen angel (the first part of the quoted post. The second part was too clever not to leave). So I trotted off to wikipedia to read about fallen angels.

During the late Second Temple period, demons were not thought of as the fallen angels themselves, but as the surviving souls of their monstrous offspring. According to this interpretation, fallen angels have intercourse with human women, giving existence to the Biblical giants. To purge the world of these creatures, God sends the Great Deluge and their bodies are destroyed. However, their spiritual parts survive, henceforth roaming the earth as demons.

Fascinating, thanks. Tell me, is that from Enoch or is it a part of wider Judaism? Do you know? Thanks again!

Why the Moses and Dante observation ? I've never read Dante. I've read Moses but am unsure of what you mean here.

Sorry, I should have explained myself. It's a standard position of much mystical theology that we can never know the essence of God. Being transcendent, this knowledge lies beyond the capacity of human thought, vision, etc. Following from this, to achieve the highest levels of contemplation involves entering into a divine darkness. This darkness is the realm beyond the ability of the intellect or human sense perception to know or see.

When Dante reaches the summit of his journey, he lapses into the most beautifully suggestive and ethereal poetry, explicitly stating his failure of vision:

O the abundant Grace, whereby I dared
to pierce the Light Eternal with my gaze,
until I had therein exhausted sight!

And the failure of speech (and, by inference, intellect):

Ev’n as to what I do remember, mine
will now be shorter than an infant’s speech,
...
Oh, how, to my conception, short and weak
is speech! And this, to what I saw, is such,
that it is not enough to call it small.

Source: Paradiso Canto 33

As for Moses: Climbing mount Sinai, he enters into the cloud in which God is dwelling (Exodus 24:15-18). Here is St. Gregory's mystical interpretation:

Since Moses was alone, by having been stripped as it were of the people’s fear, he boldly approached the very darkness itself and entered the invisible things where he was no longer seen by those watching. After he entered the inner sanctuary of the divine and mystical doctrine, there, while not being seen, he was in company with the Invisible. He teaches, I think, by the things that he did; that the one who is going to associate intimately with God must go beyond all that is visible and (lifting up his own mind, as to a mountaintop, to the invisible and incomprehensible) believe that the divine is there where the understanding does not reach.

Sorry to retread the general mystical stuff, but I thought someone reading this might find it interesting.