Reading the Pips : The Four elements and how they interact

[Diana]

When we take into account the Four Elements of the world , it provides a lot of extra information for interpreting the cards when doing a reading. The Tarot, as we know, was created by people who were steeped in hermeticism; alchemy, Platonism and other teachings for whom the four elements were foundational and irrefutable.

I’m not going to go into all of these in depth, but just mention three briefly to illustrate the importance of the four elements and how obvious it is that the cardmakers, the maîtres cartiers who designed the Tarot of Marseilles, would not have ignored this foundational stone. I doubt there is anyone who would say that these four elements don’t exist in some form or another in the Tarot.

Now in Hermeticism, there is a creation story told by God to Hermes in the first book of the Corpus Hermeticum. It begins when God, by an act of will, creates the primary matter that is to constitute the cosmos. From primary matter God separates the four elements – Earth, Air, Fire and Water.

And in Plato’s cosmology : Plato believed that he could describe the Universe using five simple shapes. He proposed that four of these solids built the Four Elements: sharp-pointed tetrahedra give the sting of Fire, smooth-sliding octahedra give easily-parted Air, droplety icosahedra give Water, and lumpish, packable cubes give Earth. The dodecahedron, at last, is the shape of the Universe as a whole. This fifth element is sometimes called aether/ether and according to ancient and medieval science, is the material that fills the region of the universe above the terrestrial sphere. It is also called the QUINTESSENCE. (It has been suggested that the Major Arcana of the Tarot can be considered as the fifth element).

And then Alchemy of course, with their four elements, equally air, earth, fire and water.

So that’s just a sample of how ancient and important this concept is.

I brought in Plato’s cosmology also because of the sharp-pointed tetrahedra that gives the sting of Fire. But let’s speak of that later – it would be going too fast to approach that now, and probably in another thread so as not to mix things up too much. There are some more basic elements regarding these elements I wish to speak of first in this thread. Let’s watch the seed open slowly like I said. I’ve been longing for a long time to find a place where one can watch the Tarot of Marseilles unfold slowly and to be an observer and a beholder. I'm tired and weary of books.

So that is all for this post. My next planned contribution to this thread will be to describe how I use the four elements to see how the minors interact with other due to their all being very powerful elements, and not always willing to give up their power. And how by understanding their interactions and relationship, we can better understand the undercurrents of what is going on in a reading, and sometimes even find a solution to a problem which seems at first glance impossible to solve.

[Diana]

Water, Air, Fire, Earth.

There are 12 different combinations of the elements in the Tarot :


Water vs Air/Earth/Fire

Fire vs Air/Earth/Water

Air vs Earth/Water/Fire

Earth vs Water/Fire/Air


These four elements are not all equal. Which goes against a lot of what I used to believe – that there is no hierarchy in the four suits. I didn’t want to accept that there was no hierarchy. But when one examines these elements, it seems not to be the case. I believe that the Water element is the most powerful. The Ace of Cups (which would be logically the Water element) attests to this too.

Here is a brief summary of how I view the interaction of the elements. Before going further, I’d like to know if what I’ve written is correct and if there are any flaws or things I have overlooked. Because if one uses the elements correctly, a TdM reading receives a huge boost. If we use them incorrectly, then we most likely making erroneous assumptions.


WATER
Water vs. Fire : Water will always put out Fire, if there is enough of course. The Fire has no means to defend itself. Fire doesn’t really bother Water. Even if the heat of the Fire turns the Water into vapour, it still exists as water in another form. Contrary to Fire – the fire just vanishes when water is poured over it. It exists no more.

Water vs. Air : Water doesn’t fear Air, and Air doesn’t fear Water. They work well together.

Water vs. Earth : When water takes over the earth, the earth gets all soggy – the two elements combine to make something new – like mud or muddy water. The water gets absorbed into the earth or vice versa. The earth can make water murky, but still it remains water. So when these two elements combine, they both lose a bit of their uniqueness and become one. But they don’t lose their essence because they can easily be separated and regain their wholeness.

Water is a very powerful element in the Tarot. It has few enemies or opponents.

FIRE
Fire vs. Air : An excess of Air can put out fire – like a wind blowing (although wind is maybe not strictly speaking air but a movement of air), or a candle being snuffed out due to lack of oxygen. Air can also fear Fire – because when there is too much fire, it prevents one from breathing. So these two elements are antagonistic to each other – they should not mingle too much but look at each other at a safe distance.

Fire vs. Earth : Earth alone does not fear Fire. Only the things that live on the earth. The earth will regenerate itself if scorched. Fire however can fear Earth sometimes, because when earth is thrown onto a Fire, it will extinguish it. So in a combination Earth/Fire, Earth is the stronger one.

AIR
Air vs. Earth : Air and Earth work harmoniously together. They both go about their daily affairs without bothering each other much, sort of minding their own business. They don't pay too much attention to each other.

EARTH – combinations covered above.

[Kellydii]

I think you make a strong case for your interpretations of the elements. I do look at the elements a little differently.
water/earth compatable energy..ie water helps earth grow
water/air neutral. air moves water
Water/fire weak. Steam
Water/water passive. Too much emotion.
Fire/air active energy..fire needs air to grow.
Fire/fire active, but burns out quickly
Earth/air- passive/neutral/ weaken each other. a windstorm
Earth/fire neutral. little effect
Earth/earth passive
Basically I see cups and coins as supporting each other but not a lot of action.
And swords and batons as supporting each other and active.
Does this make sense to you?
I think we are in agreement with most of the combos.

[Diana]

I think we are in agreement with most of the combos.

Thanks so much for your interpretations. They make a lot of sense. I hadn't thought to combine the same elements.

Here are my comments so we can discuss. I've put yours in italics for easier reading. I assume you made a copy of your notes.

water/earth compatable energy..ie water helps earth grow - This is a step I didn't take. I took earth to be purely earth and not what grows on it. I'm still on the fence as to whether one should include nature - plants and trees and all. I suppose one has to, as water is essential for sustaining life. So yes, I'm willing to adapt my interpretation accordingly. And nature has to have some place in the Tarot.

water/air neutral. air moves water - Agree

Water/fire weak. Steam - My interpretation is that the Water will always be stronger than the Fire. Due to the fact that water will always be water, even if it's vapour.

Water/water passive. Too much emotion. - I agree about the passive. As to the rest, we're already assuming here that Water is emotions - but we're getting ahead of ourselves here. We haven't studied these aspects yet in this study group. But I would assume like I said that you made a copy of your notes.

Fire/air active energy..fire needs air to grow. - I hadn't thought of that need of air for fire to grow. I'll adjust my interpretation accordingly - will have to give it some thought.

Fire/fire active, but burns out quickly - Why would fire/fire burn out quickly ? That's not what one has seen in Australia recently. The fires burn even stronger.

Earth/air- passive/neutral/ weaken each other. a windstorm - I find them more neutral. But if we're including nature in earth as I think we should, then yes, their can be some weakening.

Earth/fire neutral. little effect - Not really, if one is taking into account that nature is part of the earth. Because fire can cause havoc on nature. My interpretation would also be wrong then (for which I hadn't taken nature into account.)

Earth/earth passive - Agree. Very neutral. Boring almost.


Basically I see cups and coins as supporting each other but not a lot of action.
And swords and batons as supporting each other and active.

This will be a long discussion I think when we get there - which element represents Fire and which represents Air and therefore which suit. There is much debate about this in the TdM world. That's why I brought up Plato's cosmology. But we'll discuss all this I think in the respective thread. (I really think it's better that we do all this systematically - especially in the beginning - otherwise the threads will go off in all sorts of directions.)

[Kellydii]

I have given your reasoning behind water being stronger than fire and you do make a strong point. I will look at water differently now.

As for the fire/fire combo I would say that fire needs 3 elements to keep going. Heat, oxygen and fuel. Remove any of these and a fire will cease to burn. In the case of Australia there is intense heat,due to a lack of rain and the summer season, plenty of dry timber, and air. So, if a fire does not have heat, fuel or air it will burn quickly but cannot sustain itself. Fire plus fire is a double dose of energy but it eventually burns out. active energy but not long lasting..

I look forward to your next post!

[Diana]

I understand now about the fire/fire. And agree with your assessment.

I reckon we could make a nice little summary of all this before moving on. Just to make sure we're on the same page for the future. And if anyone else steps in with some more input, we can adapt it. Would you like to do it or should I ?

[Kellydii]

I think it’s best if you do. I’m still learning my way around this site

[Charlie Brown]

This is so interesting. I look forward to having a little more time to look at it more closely. I recently acquired a book to help me work through some of these very same problems. Again, I haven't had much of a chance to go through it though. It's an astrology book by Stephen Arroyo that's specifically on the symbolism of the four elements. While you know, Diana, that I'm not one of those people who's heavy on correspondences, I don't see any reason why the dynamics of water, fire, etc. would function differently in tarot than astrology, they're both harkening back to the same earlier cosmology.

[Diana]

Charlie Brown, if you have any input after reading the book for this thread, it would be very helpful ! Astrology is like a foreign country for me and I certainly won't be able to provide any such information.

Edited to add: I didn't even know that astrology had four elements. That's how clueless I am about astrology. It's a completely blank page. I know I have a birth sign and what is called in French an "ascendant" (see - I don't even know the English word), but that's it. All I've ever read seems to have come in one ear and out the other. But I suspect more that nothing entered. Didn't find the door I suppose.

[Diana]

I think it’s best if you do. I’m still learning my way around this site

I didn't make the summary yet because I'm not at ease I realise to include nature if we're dealing with the pure Earth element. We didn't take fish into account for our Water element, to make a parallel. The nature is an added thing.

The earth doesn't care if a tree or a plant grows on it or not. Or if it nourishes the world or not. It's kind of indifferent and neutral. It cares little if it's it's barren or full of rich minerals. If the minerals get depleted, it just goes on in a different state. It's just earth.

It's a very boring element. But it's also very solid because it doesn't panic in an emergency.

I'd like to hear what you and also others have to say about this observation of mine.

I'm not saying that later on, particularly when we study the floral depictions on the pips that we won't start including this. But I think if we're just observing the elements, that nature should be left out.

[Diana]

I also went to look up a wee bit on these four elements in astrology. So wiki's first paragraph is : In Western tropical astrology, there are always 12 astrological signs. Each of the four elements is associated with 3 signs of the Zodiac which are always located exactly 120 degrees away from each other along the ecliptic and said to be in trine with one another. Most modern astrologers use the four classical elements extensively, (also known as triplicities) and indeed it is still viewed as a critical part of interpreting the astrological chart.

Now I know why astrology is a blank page to me. I think I understand Alien talk better than this.




However, this little chart I think is useful for our thread :

That being said, I don't understand why there's a square in the middle. In fact, am not sure I understand much of the whole thing at all.

[Kellydii]

So, I’m curious as to what you define “earth” as. Are you thinking of it as a rock form? I don’t think “nature” when I think of earth. The planet earth consists of land, water, air and life. Mountains,valleys gases-mainly oxygen and nitrogen, water which covers over 70% of the planet, and people, animals, and plants.
But we could go below the earth’s surface and focus on rock and metal. Perhaps I’m looking at Earth as a planet? Water is composed of the chemical elements of hydrogen and oxygen, and fish etc live it, plants, etc. Perhaps I’m not understanding the basics of elements
We could go crazy breaking it down I used the example of water nourishing the earth and that’s why I find it compatable energy. And the fact that water covers 70% of the planet.
I’m a-ok with whatever you decide! I’m interested in your thoughts...
I know ABSOLUTELY nothing about astrology. So I don’t have any opinions in regard to it.

[Charlie Brown]

Both tarot and astrology use what are referred to as the "classical elements": earth, air, fire, water. This is an antiquated cosmology and has nothing to do with our current chemical understanding of "elements" as such. There was also the "quintessence" a often undefined 5th element akin to ether, spirit, etc.

What Diana's chart is showing are what I THINK are referred to as "humors". Air + Fire = hot, etc. I know they were used in a lot of different ways in ancient times, but I couldn't tell you much about how.

Yes, Kellydii, you're right that certain elements have an affinity for each other, what you're calling "compatible energy." There's a more formal vocabulary for it, but it's escaping me at the moment. There's a tarot technique called "elemental dignities" that plays with this. Most contemporary readers don't use it, although it's interesting.

So earth, for example, has a positive relationship with water, a neutral relationship with fire, and a negative relationship with air.

I've got a lot to read and not a lot of time for reading, but I would like to give that elements book a crack.

[Diana]

So, I’m curious as to what you define “earth” as. Are you thinking of it as a rock form? I don’t think “nature” when I think of earth. The planet earth consists of land, water, air and life. Mountains,valleys gases-mainly oxygen and nitrogen, water which covers over 70% of the planet, and people, animals, and plants.
But we could go below the earth’s surface and focus on rock and metal. Perhaps I’m looking at Earth as a planet? Water is composed of the chemical elements of hydrogen and oxygen, and fish etc live it, plants, etc. Perhaps I’m not understanding the basics of elements
We could go crazy breaking it down I used the example of water nourishing the earth and that’s why I find it compatable energy. And the fact that water covers 70% of the planet.
I’m a-ok with whatever you decide! I’m interested in your thoughts...
I know ABSOLUTELY nothing about astrology. So I don’t have any opinions in regard to it.

Definitely I view the earth as rock and minerals, mostly silica, and the soil that it produces. The earth element doesn't need water to sustain it. Only nature needs water to sustain what GROWS in the soil that comes from the earth element.

The four humours were an ancient way of looking at the body and its ailments - they were all up in arms about blood, black bile, yellow bile and phlegm. Black bile was cold and dry and yellow bile was hot and dry, blood was hot and wet and phlegm was cold and wet. But it has nothing to do with the Tarot. I researched that once, but it's not something I think Tarotists need to concern themselves with.

[Kellydii]

I think you are right in your assessment of Earth. You took it much farther than I did in breaking it down to the element of rock/minerals/silica. I was only thinking in terms of planet earth and all that grows on it. So, I like your observation. Earth is rather boring, but solid. Thank you for the extra insight

[Aoife]

These four elements are not all equal. Which goes against a lot of what I used to believe – that there is no hierarchy in the four suits. I didn’t want to accept that there was no hierarchy. But when one examines these elements, it seems not to be the case. I believe that the Water element is the most powerful. The Ace of Cups (which would be logically the Water element) attests to this too.

Fascinating, Diana, I've never really thought about this before. I suppose I'd just accepted that the elements were equal in importance but different in nature.

I think the water element can be the most underestimated, particularly in terms of its power. But it suffers from a significant vulnerability - that of adulteration. Water has no defence against all manner of gases, other liquids dissolving into it, and many solids able to be carried in solution or floating upon it. I know this is digressing from examining the elements in their pure state, but I think it's a consideration in terms of hierarchy?

[Diana]

I think the water element can be the most underestimated, particularly in terms of its power. But it suffers from a significant vulnerability - that of adulteration. Water has no defence against all manner of gases, other liquids dissolving into it, and many solids able to be carried in solution or floating upon it. I know this is digressing from examining the elements in their pure state, but I think it's a consideration in terms of hierarchy?

That's a good observation. Water therefore lends itself easily to be corrupted and adulterated. That could be its greatest weakness.

It can be corrupted easier than some of the other three elements I think. Of course, all four will have no resistance against, for instance, radioactivity. But that is an extreme example. And they're all equal in the face of such kind of devastation.

But as all four elements can be corrupted in their own fashion - for instance air can be polluted too - do you think the water element can be corrupted with more ease than the others ? If not, then this would not have any impact on the "hierarchy" of the suits, if there is one as suggested in this thread.

My first feeling is that it could may well be that it's the easiest to corrupt and adulterate. But I need to think on this for longer than I have time for right now. I think Air would also be very easy to adulterate. Just a wisp of some poison gas and you're done for. But then is it the air that is killing or the poison ?

Fire can't be adulterated I think.

It's very interesting all this. It's the first time I've ever started diving so deeply into this question. And I think it is going to be very useful for reading the cards.

[Aoife]

Just pondering...
... about how adaptive Water can be. Whatever the ambient temperature it will change its form to conform, chameleon-like.
... and about how different the qualities of its different forms are. Like the riddle of the dead body in a locked room lying in a shallow puddle of water - the deadly sharpness of ice shards, the scalding heat of steam. A large body of water in full flow is immensely dangerous, but so too are ice and steam.

Yet Water needs to be harnessed - channelled or contained - if it is to be of use. Beyond the fact that humans can survive a few weeks without food but only a couple of days without water, it has no intrinsic use unless harnessed. (Okay, it needs to fall as rain or irrigate fields if crops are to grow, but gather it in your hands it falls through your fingers, formless). Yet if it is contained for too long, denied movement it will stagnate and become toxic.

By comparison, Fire seems more predictable, less adaptable. It requires specific conditions to thrive, and with the right conditions it can move and grow fast - as I'm reminded by the tragedy of the Australian fires. Am I right that it always needs a catalyst to come into being? Without a spark, without tinder, without air it cannot take hold? (Okay, other than volcanoes... and lightening). Given the right expertise, Fire is easily harnessed and put to use. I don't think it can be adulterated. Given the right conditions, it can be accelerated and in principle, it can be easily extinguished - although I'm reminded of the tragedy of Grenfell Tower.

Its a strange one, Fire. On the one hand so powerful and destructive, on the other, so dependent and easily quelled. It does not have sentience, yet we say it is alive. In times of old, the blacksmith, the keeper of fire would be consigned beyond the border of the village - presumably to reduce the risk of fire catching hold and spreading. But also because to control and use fire was considered to be a dark art.

I'm aware these thoughts are not in line with the classical elements but my mind is inclined to wander in these directions when reading tarot.