A Maison Dieu XVI is not a Tower

[Diana]

I just want to clear something up. Due to the habit of translating Arcanum XVI, which in French is Maison Dieu, to Tower, there is naturally some confusion as to what this card is. I can understand that English speaking people don't feel comfortable using the word Maison Dieu as they don't know what it means, and maybe not even how to pronounce it. It looks like a Tower and Arthur Waite took it as such and his interpretation of this card seems to have taken hold in the whole tarotsphere. The blame is clearly to be put on the deck publishers who, when publishing the TdM cards in English, translated the word as "tower".

Maison Dieu means "god house". It does not mean the house OF God either. For this, one would require a small preposition "de", i.e. Maison de Dieu.

So what is a Maison Dieu ???

A "god house" - Maison Dieu - was in the Middle Ages a hospital-monastery intended to accommodate the poor pilgrims then the sick of the surroundings.

The Maison-Dieu limited its activities to the accommodation of the poor, passers-by, travelers and pilgrims. It took the name of Hôtel-Dieu around the 17th century. (The word Hôtel was originally Hostel. Any circumflex in French means that once upon a time, there was an "s" in the word. See English "hospital" and French "hôpital". But in hospitality the "s" remains in French, i.e. hospitalité).

This word, Maison Dieu, is no longer used. But one can find some traces of it when one travels in France. Like an old inn or a street which is called "Maison Dieu". But in common language, it's disappeared.

So the conclusion here is that a Maison Dieu is not a Tower. Please remember this when one is reading and studying the TdM.

[_R_]

Maison Dieu means "god house". It does not mean the house OF God either. For this, one would require a small preposition "de", i.e. Maison de Dieu.

In modern French the particle is required; in older forms, it is not. See the notes here: https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/de#Ancien_fran%C3%A7ais

Almshouses aside, we find this form in the biblical work of Guyart des Moulins, a 14th century monk, who glossed the Latin "Domus Dei" (for the Hebrew "Beth El") in this way, not designating a church, but more simply as "a place where God has appeared."

Incidentally, in England, these almshouses are still known as Mizendew, or Maiden's Due, etc, thanks to the Norman influence there.

[Diana]

Thanks for that _R_. You're right of course about the grammar - it certainly wasn't also fixed like it is now. Like spelling.

[_R_]

Thanks for that _R_. You're right of course about the grammar - it certainly wasn't also fixed like it is now. Like spelling.

Yes, the i/j and /v/u distinction was only fixed in the 18th century, hence the disparity in spelling between decks.

[Diana]

Almshouses aside, we find this form in the biblical work of Guyart des Moulins, a 14th century monk, who glossed the Latin "Domus Dei" (for the Hebrew "Beth El") in this way, not designating a church, but more simply as "a place where God has appeared."

Well, the place where God appeared would fit with the notion that this card has a reference to the Pentecost. When the Holy Spirit descended on the Apostles like a tongue of fire. Which has always been my thesis regarding this card. It's not a literal depiction and therefore shouldn't be taken as a copy/paste of the Pentecost. But this reference is certainly there.

[Belenus]

I have long pondered the meanings of atout XVI (and long fought the naysayers and RWS folks who insist it is the same as the Tower card in the RWS and its "descendants.")

Here are some thoughts I have thrown around FBlandia about one of my very favorite cards.

There is a great deal of hope if you look to the traditional tarots, instead of the WS. In the traditional tarots in the TdM style, the card is named, "La Maison Dieu," i.e., "The God House", "The House of God," "God's House" (take your pick because in early French the grammar rules were not precise nor cast in stone as of yet.) In the era of the creation of these traditional tarots, those French words had a very specific meaning: a Church, and/or a Hospital. In other words these were places of sanctuary, comfort, unconditional acceptance, safety, and healing. They were places where one went to encounter the love and compassion of the Divine Spirit. 

This traditional name also referred to a specific set of Bible verses that spoke of "the House of God." Genesis 28:10 Jacob left Beersheba and set out for Harran. 11 When he reached a certain place, he stopped for the night because the sun had set. Taking one of the stones there, he put it under his head and lay down to sleep. 12 He had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it...16 When Jacob awoke from his sleep, he thought, “Surely the Lord is in this place, and I was not aware of it.” 17 He was afraid and said, “How awesome is this place! This is none other than The House of God; this is the gate of heaven.”

Several extra points to ponder. Notice how in the TdM the beings descending from the "tower" are far too large to have been in the "tower" itself. Are these not references to the angels Jacob saw ascending and descending? In Genesis these beings are often referred to as giants. 

Finally notice how the "tower" is NOT destroyed in the TdM tarot. Its crown is being lifted up by heavenly light/lightning. In the bible 'arrow/lightning' most often accompanies the divine presence and the revelations of prophecy (such as with Moses at Sinai, and the prophets Ezekiel and Daniel). 

Healing, compassion, inspiration, communing with Spirit, comfort, love - all manifested in the deep symbolic import of La Maison Dieu, Major Arcanum XVI. 

In tarot we speak of divination, to divine an answer. Divination, has its root in the word "Divine", i.e., that which is of God, of Spirit. To divine or practice divination is to commune with the Divine. Thus to divine one becomes a conduit (and interpreter) for the manifestations of the divine through signs and symbols - thus the thunderbolt of La Maison striking the crown, the head of the "tower!" That 'flash' of divine inspiration is reflected perhaps in this potent card. As a conduit of the divine, a reader becomes a 'house of god' (Maison Dieu) - healer and comforter.

Finally I would be horribly remiss if I did not strongly and righteously reject any and all references to this card as the Tower of Babel of biblical fame. This would be another long discursus that I will spare you of. But in brief - read the biblical passages about Babel carefully. The Tower of Babel is NOT destroyed, nor are human beings cast off of it to their destruction. Genesis 11:1-9 Thus imso, this card can not be, nor refer to the Tower of Babel.

Belenus

[Diana]

Very interesting post, Belenus. Thank you.

There is a great deal of hope if you look to the traditional tarots, instead of the WS. In the traditional tarots in the TdM style, the card is named, "La Maison Dieu," i.e., "The God House", "The House of God," "God's House" (take your pick because in early French the grammar rules were not precise nor cast in stone as of yet.) In the era of the creation of these traditional tarots, those French words had a very specific meaning: a Church, and/or a Hospital. In other words these were places of sanctuary, comfort, unconditional acceptance, safety, and healing. They were places where one went to encounter the love and compassion of the Divine Spirit. 

I like that very much. Just one detail : it never meant a church. As explained in the first post in this thread. But I can understand the confusion. House of God sounds pretty much like it could be church. So I suggest in future, you don't spread this false rumour !!

This traditional name also referred to a specific set of Bible verses that spoke of "the House of God." Genesis 28:10 Jacob left Beersheba and set out for Harran. 11 When he reached a certain place, he stopped for the night because the sun had set. Taking one of the stones there, he put it under his head and lay down to sleep. 12 He had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it...16 When Jacob awoke from his sleep, he thought, “Surely the Lord is in this place, and I was not aware of it.” 17 He was afraid and said, “How awesome is this place! This is none other than The House of God; this is the gate of heaven.”

Several extra points to ponder. Notice how in the TdM the beings descending from the "tower" are far too large to have been in the "tower" itself. Are these not references to the angels Jacob saw ascending and descending? In Genesis these beings are often referred to as giants. 

I can't accept that this card would refer to the story you told. It's one of the most beautiful stories in the Old Testament and the stone you speak of I have often pondered about and wondered if it would be found somewhere in the Tarot. I have dismissed this idea. There are sometimes two stones, but never only one. And there was only one stone in that story and it was hugely important.

The giants in the Bible were pretty scary things. They were the offspring of Fallen Angels and the women of earth. They were monstrous - a breeding experiment gone badly wrong. All the legends of giants and ogres that we have today stem from the fear that they instilled in people.

These are two normal human beings I have concluded who are escaping the prison, the citadelle, of their mind, of their egos. I think they may be the same two figures we find in the Sun arcanum.

Finally notice how the "tower" is NOT destroyed in the TdM tarot. Its crown is being lifted up by heavenly light/lightning. In the bible 'arrow/lightning' most often accompanies the divine presence and the revelations of prophecy (such as with Moses at Sinai, and the prophets Ezekiel and Daniel). 

Very good reminder. Lightening and thunder often indicate the presence of God or a divine presence. In the desert too, when Moses was leading his people, God gave them a pillar of fire at night to guide their way (and a pillar of cloud during the daytime.)

Healing, compassion, inspiration, communing with Spirit, comfort, love - all manifested in the deep symbolic import of La Maison Dieu, Major Arcanum XVI. 

In tarot we speak of divination, to divine an answer. Divination, has its root in the word "Divine", i.e., that which is of God, of Spirit. To divine or practice divination is to commune with the Divine. Thus to divine one becomes a conduit (and interpreter) for the manifestations of the divine through signs and symbols - thus the thunderbolt of La Maison striking the crown, the head of the "tower!" That 'flash' of divine inspiration is reflected perhaps in this potent card. As a conduit of the divine, a reader becomes a 'house of god' (Maison Dieu) - healer and comforter.

Finally I would be horribly remiss if I did not strongly and righteously reject any and all references to this card as the Tower of Babel of biblical fame. This would be another long discursus that I will spare you of. But in brief - read the biblical passages about Babel carefully. The Tower of Babel is NOT destroyed, nor are human beings cast off of it to their destruction. Genesis 11:1-9 Thus imso, this card can not be, nor refer to the Tower of Babel.

That is really well thought out and put. I like it how you remind us that this card is also about inspiration and communion. And comfort. I often look at those guys and envy them. It's like someone being released from prison after a long long stint. And they're no longer either in the clutches of the Devil - who probably put them in prison in the first place.

And definitely, there's no Tower of Babel in the TdM. But people will always say there is.

[Belenus]

Very interesting post, Belenus. Thank you.

I like that very much. Just one detail : it never meant a church. As explained in the first post in this thread. But I can understand the confusion. House of God sounds pretty much like it could be church. So I suggest in future, you don't spread this false rumour !!

Diana,

I am not arguing with you in this instance, nor denying what you write as "true." However - I can only explain my own - perhaps limited - experience that causes me to have a very different appreciation and understanding of that phrase. I was born in far northern Quebec, in a small rural fishing village. Everything centered - geographically and existentially - around the local parish church. In fact a frequent family story about one of my great uncles, was that he died by falling from the church steeple that he was constructing. Interesting correspondence, n'est ce-pas?

Anyway to the point, or several points. First and foremost the French spoken in Canada at that time - especially rural Canada - was not the same as Parisian, and/or modern French. As one elderly and curmudgeonly Quebecquois nun explained to me very forcefully, "We speak the REAL French as Quebecquois, not like those Frenchmen!" Later when I took French in a U.S. high school (required at that Catholic school) I became quickly confused because the French I learned from my family was clearly not the French I was learning in school. This caused understandably much confusion when I went home to Quebec every summer to visit family (and much teasing and laughter.) Trying to understand the differences, I asked several French Canadian university professors. They explained that because Quebec was almost completely isolated from France by not only by extreme distances, but even more so by being completely surrounded geographically, and culturally, by English-speaking Canada - thus the Quebecquois patois of my family and countrymen never developed into modern French as it did develop in Europe. Thus our French was truly medieval French. LOL Thus that old nun was, in some sense correct - in that our French was more "original." LOL

Now the second crucial point. When my Grandmaman took me to church in the village - she constantly referred to the building - "C'est ici la Maison Dieu!" as she urged me to show deep reverence and silence. In other words she called the church building "God's House" literally. She spoke only French, but my Dad would translate into English "Maison Dieu" as God's House, and as "Church" equally, as well.

So I hope you can see that for me, et ma famille, those words do indeed refer to the Church.

avec humilité,
Belenus

[Diana]

I am not arguing with you in this instance, nor denying what you write as "true." However - I can only explain my own - perhaps limited - experience that causes me to have a very different appreciation and understanding of that phrase. I was born in far northern Quebec, in a small rural fishing village. Everything centered - geographically and existentially - around the local parish church. In fact a frequent family story about one of my great uncles, was that he died by falling from the church steeple that he was constructing. Interesting correspondence, n'est ce-pas?

Anyway to the point, or several points. First and foremost the French spoken in Canada at that time - especially rural Canada - was not the same as Parisian, and/or modern French. As one elderly and curmudgeonly Quebecquois nun explained to me very forcefully, "We speak the REAL French as Quebecquois, not like those Frenchmen!" Later when I took French in a U.S. high school (required at that Catholic school) I became quickly confused because the French I learned from my family was clearly not the French I was learning in school. This caused understandably much confusion when I went home to Quebec every summer to visit family (and much teasing and laughter.) Trying to understand the differences, I asked several French Canadian university professors. They explained that because Quebec was almost completely isolated from France by not only by extreme distances, but even more so by being completely surrounded geographically, and culturally, by English-speaking Canada - thus the Quebecquois patois of my family and countrymen never developed into modern French as it did develop in Europe. Thus our French was truly medieval French. LOL Thus that old nun was, in some sense correct - in that our French was more "original." LOL

Now the second crucial point. When my Grandmaman took me to church in the village - she constantly referred to the building - "C'est ici la Maison Dieu!" as she urged me to show deep reverence and silence. In other words she called the church building "God's House" literally. She spoke only French, but my Dad would translate into English "Maison Dieu" as God's House, and as "Church" equally, as well.

So I hope you can see that for me, et ma famille, those words do indeed refer to the Church.

Now what an enlightening post. Wonderful to wake up to !!!

Thank you SO much for this information. Of course the Canadians speak an "older" French. The accent too surely must be similar too to the one that the first immigrants had when they arrived on the shores. Their unusual (to other people's ears) way of pronouncing the language, their vocabulary, is so particular to Canada. I mean, sometimes the TV shows I watch from Canada are sub-titled in French so that other French speakers can follow the plot!!

I think yes, that Canadian French must be closer to medieval French than the modern one. Am thrilled no end to learn about what your grandmaman used to call the village church.

So yes, the Maison Dieu could indeed also be a place of worship. But if it is, then once again, the TdM indicates in its subtle way that it is not a huge fan of the established church - otherwise why would the guys be so happy to be freed from its constrictions.

This gives a great new slant on this arcanum and now I'm going to try and connect some dots that I sense appearing.

[Belenus]

Now what an enlightening post. Wonderful to wake up to !!!

Thank you SO much for this information. Of course the Canadians speak an "older" French. The accent too surely must be similar too to the one that the first immigrants had when they arrived on the shores. Their unusual (to other people's ears) way of pronouncing the language, their vocabulary, is so particular to Canada. I mean, sometimes the TV shows I watch from Canada are sub-titled in French so that other French speakers can follow the plot!!

Thank you!! Merci beaucoup Diana!

Just a quick silly note: My Grandmaman used to yell out the back door, or when I was in another room, "tway-low!" <phonetic spelling because I have NO earthly idea how to convey the sound of it.> I soon began to think it was her special pet nickname for me. Then one day I asked my Dad, "What does Grandmaman's nickname for me "tway-low" mean?" He looked confused for a moment, then replied, "Son, that is not a nickname, she is shouting "Hey you there!" Hmmmmm...OK.

Then years later when I took French in high school, I had a sudden revelation - she was shouting "toi-là" . But in Canadian French it was a whole different thing!

Belenus.

[Maskelyne]

So the conclusion here is that a Maison Dieu is not a Tower.

An earlier name for this card was La Sagitta (the Arrow). The "Steele Sermon" (c. 1470) refers to it as such. Sullivan Hisman's also identifies the card that way in the list of cards for his Budapest Tarot recreation, though the card itself features the familiar lightning-struck tower, minus people. It was also known as Fuoco (Fire) and Casa del Diavolo (Devil's House) in Italy. Paul Huson, in Mystical Origins of the Tarot, speculates that "Dieu" may have originated as a corruption of Diefl (Devil). In the Flemish Tarot (Vandenborre, e.g.), the card is called La Foudre (the Lightning), and shows lightning striking a tree, usually with a person standing by it. This leads me to think that the subject of the card is the catastrophe, not the tower.

In The Tarot, Magic, Alchemy, Hermeticism, and Neoplatonism, Robert Place speculates that the image may refer to the legend of Saint Barbara. A third-century convert to Christianity, Barbara was imprisoned by her father in a tower. She had three windows installed in the tower, symbolizing the Trinity. For this blasphemy against the gods of Rome, her father took her to the top of the tower and killed her, at which moment God struck him dead with lightning and he fell to Earth. I don't know that there's any evidence to support this conjecture, but it sounds more plausible, to me at least, than Eliphas Levi's claim that it shows Nimrod and his minister falling from the Tower of Babel.

[Belenus]

So the conclusion here is that a Maison Dieu is not a Tower.

An earlier name for this card was La Sagitta (the Arrow). The "Steele Sermon" (c. 1470) refers to it as such. Sullivan Hisman's also identifies the card that way in the list of cards for his Budapest Tarot recreation, though the card itself features the familiar lightning-struck tower, minus people. It was also known as Fuoco (Fire) and Casa del Diavolo (Devil's House) in Italy. Paul Huson, in Mystical Origins of the Tarot, speculates that "Dieu" may have originated as a corruption of Diefl (Devil). In the Flemish Tarot (Vandenborre, e.g.), the card is called La Foudre (the Lightning), and shows lightning striking a tree, usually with a person standing by it. This leads me to think that the subject of the card is the catastrophe, not the tower.

I guess my concern in these comparisons, or positing evolutions, is based in the fact that the Budapest, Flemish, Vieville, etc., etc are naturally not TdMs at all. Thus they do not necessarily correspond one-to-one. Different decks, different traditions, different meanings. So to posit that an earlier name for the card is "such and such" does not make sense to me. They are simply different traditions, not as if one morphed into the other. This to me is akin to folks that want to apply the same meanings between atouts II and V of the 1JJ Swiss or the Besançon to the TdM, or the Grand Duke and Eastern Emperor of the Minchiate tarots to the TdM. Personally I think each style of deck needs to stand on its own merit. TdM atout XVI may very well refer to healing and divine inspiration whereas another deck's "Il Fuoco" or "La Foudre" may very well represent catastrophe. But that does not mean that thus TdM XVI must represent catastrophe.

Belenus

[Diana]

An earlier name for this card was La Sagitta (the Arrow). The "Steele Sermon" (c. 1470) refers to it as such. Sullivan Hisman's also identifies the card that way in the list of cards for his Budapest Tarot recreation, though the card itself features the familiar lightning-struck tower, minus people. It was also known as Fuoco (Fire) and Casa del Diavolo (Devil's House) in Italy. Paul Huson, in Mystical Origins of the Tarot, speculates that "Dieu" may have originated as a corruption of Diefl (Devil). In the Flemish Tarot (Vandenborre, e.g.), the card is called La Foudre (the Lightning), and shows lightning striking a tree, usually with a person standing by it. This leads me to think that the subject of the card is the catastrophe, not the tower.

In The Tarot, Magic, Alchemy, Hermeticism, and Neoplatonism, Robert Place speculates that the image may refer to the legend of Saint Barbara. A third-century convert to Christianity, Barbara was imprisoned by her father in a tower. She had three windows installed in the tower, symbolizing the Trinity. For this blasphemy against the gods of Rome, her father took her to the top of the tower and killed her, at which moment God struck him dead with lightning and he fell to Earth. I don't know that there's any evidence to support this conjecture, but it sounds more plausible, to me at least, than Eliphas Levi's claim that it shows Nimrod and his minister falling from the Tower of Babel.

I love all this history stuff and when it's all put together like on a tapestry. Thanks Maskelyne. You seem to have a firm grasp of the evolution of the cards. I do hope that you will regularly feed us with all you've gleaned and remembered through all you seem to have read.

Interesting about the Dieu/Diefl connection. Am thinking that the Devil is preceded by the Maison Dieu. There may be a clever play on words here. This is a nice little lead you've provided here.

The Maison Dieu also reminds me of some verses in Surah 2 of the Holy Qur'an :

55. And (remember) when you said : "O Mûsa (Moses)! We shall never believe in you till we see Allâh plainly". But you were seized with a thunderbolt (lightning) while you were looking.
56. Then We raised you up after your death, so that you might be grateful.
57. And We shaded you with clouds and sent down on you Al-Manna (Manna) and the quails (saying) : "Eat of the good lawful things We have provided for you".

I went to read up about Saint Barbara. I see that she is "venerated by Catholics who face the danger of sudden and violent death at work. She is the patron of miners, tunnellers, armourers, military engineers, gunsmiths, and anyone else who worked with cannon and explosives. She is invoked against thunder and lightning and all accidents arising from explosions of gunpowder. She became the patron saint of artillerymen." Interesting that she's invoked against thunder and lightning. I suppose that this must have rung a big bell in Robert Place's mind when he saw that.

I'll copy/paste the story of this Saint Barbara here because it's really interesting :

According to the hagiographies, Barbara, the daughter of a rich pagan named Dioscorus, was carefully guarded by her father who kept her locked up in a tower in order to preserve her from the outside world. Having secretly become a Christian, she rejected an offer of marriage that she received through her father.

Before going on a journey, her father commanded that a private bath-house be erected for her use near her dwelling, and during his absence, Barbara had three windows put in it, as a symbol of the Holy Trinity, instead of the two originally intended. When her father returned, she acknowledged herself to be a Christian; upon this he drew his sword to kill her, but her prayers created an opening in the tower wall and she was miraculously transported to a mountain gorge, where two shepherds watched their flocks. Dioscorus, in pursuit of his daughter, was rebuffed by the first shepherd, but the second betrayed her. For doing this, he was turned to stone and his flock was changed to locusts.

Dragged before the prefect of the province, Martinianus, who had her cruelly tortured, Barbara held true to her Christian faith. During the night, the dark prison was bathed in light and new miracles occurred. Every morning, her wounds were healed. Torches that were to be used to burn her went out as soon as they came near her. Finally, she was condemned to death by beheading. Her father himself carried out the death-sentence. However, as punishment, he was struck by lightning on the way home and his body was consumed by flame. Barbara was buried by a Christian, Valentinus, and her tomb became the site of miracles. This summary omits picturesque details, supplemented from Old French accounts.

Oswald Wirth has a whole different take on these two characters, but a Wirth is not a TdM so I won't go into details. In his Maison Dieu, both the guys die. One is the architect. Wirth was a brilliant man.

I like what you said that the subject is not the tower but the catastrophe. Although I still think that the TdM, being in a tradition of it's own, as Belenus points out in his post, that it is not a catastrophe but a liberation. I think the TdM creators very cleverly and intelligently used the already existing tarot cards, saw their great potential, and made them their own. I agree very much with Belenus that the TdM is something unique.

But it's very useful to dive into older decks and see if there are any connections and dots to join. I think anyway each arcanum is so full and deep with meaning and that we will never end finding connections to myths, to stories, to legends, to scriptural passages, to events, etc. It's really like Mary Poppin's bag where you think there's nothing in it but out of is pulled hatstands and mirrors and plants and who knows what else.

I think one could study these cards for a hundred years 24 hours a day, and we'd still be discovering things.

[Maskelyne]

I guess my concern in these comparisons, or positing evolutions, is based in the fact that the Budapest, Flemish, Vieville, etc., etc are naturally not TdMs at all. Thus they do not necessarily correspond one-to-one. Different decks, different traditions, different meanings. So to posit that an earlier name for the card is "such and such" does not make sense to me. They are simply different traditions, not as if one morphed into the other. This to me is akin to folks that want to apply the same meanings between atouts II and V of the 1JJ Swiss or the Besançon to the TdM, or the Grand Duke and Eastern Emperor of the Minchiate tarots to the TdM. Personally I think each style of deck needs to stand on its own merit. TdM atout XVI may very well refer to healing and divine inspiration whereas another deck's "Il Fuoco" or "La Foudre" may very well represent catastrophe. But that does not mean that thus TdM XVI must represent catastrophe.
Belenus

I think it's useful to consider what other historical decks did with trump XVI, because they all draw upon a common library of cultural archetypes. And the Budapest, from c. 1492, can be considered as a common ancestor. In any case, I find looking at other ways in which a card has been depicted helps me form a larger picture of the underlying symbolism and meaning.

Given this card's consistent association with lightning or fire, I find the interpretation as "catastrophe", in the sense of sudden and irreversible event, is useful. Such an event may or may not be a disaster, depending on where your attachments lie. It could well be, as Diana put it, a liberation.

[Charlie Brown]

This to me is akin to folks that want to apply the same meanings between atouts II and V of the 1JJ Swiss or the Besançon to the TdM,

One important difference there, is that the JJ cards didn't develop organically but were a necessary substitution given the religious and political realities of that place and time. It was a conscious obfuscation rather than an organic divergence and, therefore, I think a reader is wholly justified in treating them the same. On the other hand, if they have developed workable valences that incorporate the differences between the two decks, then more power to them.

Personally, I'm more interested in an approach to reading the historical tarots more generally than developing different practices for each potential variant.

[DarkWing]

Couple Tower notes.

In the TdM, the tower erupts from within.
In GD decks, it explodes from without.

In the Hebrew Kaballah, the Tower equates to Ayin; eye, fountain, spring, meatus, self-analysis, insight, inspiration.

[Diana]

Couple Tower notes.

In the TdM, the tower erupts from within.
In GD decks, it explodes from without.

In the Hebrew Kaballah, the Tower equates to Ayin; eye, fountain, spring, meatus, self-analysis, insight, inspiration.

That's a very interesting observation. I asked Kris Hadar once about his Maison Dieu and he spoke to me about lightning from the clouds to the ground, and lightning from the ground to the clouds. In his view the lightning in the Maison Dieu is the latter. I don't have our correspondence anymore unfortunately. That's why there's an upwards arrow in his version of the to indicate this.

About lightning : Lightning streaks inside a cloud, between clouds, and from clouds to the ground. Lightning is a flow of electrons (a negative charge) that zigzags downward in a forked shaped pattern (scientists call this a step leader). As it nears the earth, a stream of positive charges moves up to the charge of electrons (negative charge). When they meet, the power flows. We can't see this because it moves too fast (first stroke). The return flow (positive charge) moves upward more slowly. This is what we see and call lightning (return stroke). If there is a flicker, the upward stroke is repeating the process.

[Diana]

Couple Tower notes.

In the TdM, the tower erupts from within.
In GD decks, it explodes from without.

That's a very interesting observation. I asked Kris Hadar once about his Maison Dieu and he spoke to me about lightning from the clouds to the ground, and lightning from the ground to the clouds. In his view the lightning in the Maison Dieu is the latter. I don't have our correspondence anymore unfortunately. That's why there's an upwards arrow in his version of the to indicate this.

About lightning : Lightning streaks inside a cloud, between clouds, and from clouds to the ground. Lightning is a flow of electrons (a negative charge) that zigzags downward in a forked shaped pattern (scientists call this a step leader). As it nears the earth, a stream of positive charges moves up to the charge of electrons (negative charge). When they meet, the power flows. We can't see this because it moves too fast (first stroke). The return flow (positive charge) moves upward more slowly. This is what we see and call lightning (return stroke). If there is a flicker, the upward stroke is repeating the process.

[A-M]

I think Maison Dieu refers to the tower of Babel. The tower that was build to conquer heaven/the divine, and that God destroyed... So it is a tower, but this tower is also a metaphor for de spine and the kundalini-energy. The Bible story is about the arrogance that the ego has to think he can take the divine (for instance by practicing kundalini yoga), instead of making oneself worthy of the divine. Babel means 'gate to God.

[Belenus]

I think Maison Dieu refers to the tower of Babel. The tower that was build to conquer heaven/the divine, and that God destroyed... So it is a tower, but this tower is also a metaphor for de spine and the kundalini-energy. The Bible story is about the arrogance that the ego has to think he can take the divine (for instance by practicing kundalini yoga), instead of making oneself worthy of the divine. Babel means 'gate to God.

I respectfully disagree, strongly. Not only have I spent years studying this particular TdM card, but I also have a advanced degree in theology/biblical studies. I can most assuredly tell you the image on the card has ZERO correspondences to the biblical story of the "Tower of Babel." Without going into great and lengthy detail as I have in previous posts elsewhere - please read the actual biblical story carefully: Genesis 11:1-9. Note carefully: there is NO destruction of the Babel tower, there is no lightening strike, nor earthquake. There is no one thrown from the tower, nor killed. The one and only divine intervention in the biblical story is the creation of multiple and diverse human languages - which effectively stops the building of the tower, because no one can understand each other.

Yes, pride is at root of the biblical tower story - but not destruction. The story is an etiological story of how human languages differentiated and evolved.

There is a biblical story that closely corresponds to this card. It is the story of Jacob's dream (Genesis 28:10-18.) Without an elaborate exegesis of the story, let me just cut to the chase and bottom-line it. The story speaks of angels descending from the heavens along a "ladder" or "pillar" and Jacob naming the spot of this revelation as "Beth-El" which translates directly as "God's House" which is precisely the name of the TdM card - La Maison Dieu!

respectfully,
Belenus

[Diana]

I have to agree with Belenus here. There's no Tower of Babel here.

Funnily enough, the words Tower of Babel never appear in the scriptures. It only mentions "Tower and City". There's always a city attached to it. There's a story with some similarities in Sumerian mythology and legend.

There's also mention of this tower in the Holy Qur'an when Pharaoh asks Haman to build him a stone (or clay) tower so that he can mount up to heaven and confront the God of Moses. "And Pharaoh said, "O Haman, construct for me a tower that I might reach the ways - The ways into the heavens - so that I may look at the deity of Moses; but indeed, I think he is a liar." (Surah 40: 36-37). (Haman was the grand vizier and high priest of the Pharoah).

The city received the name "Babel" from the Hebrew verb בָּלַ֥ל (bālal), meaning to jumble or to confuse.

Also this Tower is not very high, nor is it impressive. The Tower of Babel, originally a Babylonian Zigurrat was believed to be ENORMOUS.

"The narrative of the tower of Babel Genesis 11:1-9 is an etiology or explanation of a phenomenon. Etiologies are narratives that explain the origin of a custom, ritual, geographical feature, name, or other phenomenon. The story of the Tower of Babel explains the origins of the multiplicity of languages. God was concerned that humans had blasphemed by building the tower to avoid a second flood so God brought into existence multiple languages. Thus, humans were divided into linguistic groups, unable to understand one another." (wiki)

In one of the Islamic encyclopedias, Babil is mentioned, but without the tower: mankind were swept together by winds into the plain that was afterward called "Babil", where they were assigned their separate languages by God, and were then scattered again in the same way.

Josephus, in the Book of Jubilees which is part of Jewish scripture, speaks of Nimrod, and in Josephus states specifically that God resolves NOT to destroy the Tower, but decided to cause "a tumult among them, by producing in them diverse languages, and causing that, through the multitude of those languages, they should not be able to understand one another. The place wherein they built the tower is now called Babylon, because of the confusion of that language which they readily understood before; for the Hebrews mean by the word Babel, confusion ..."

La Maison Dieu holds no sign at all of this division of language. And is quite clearly, I mean how is it possible NOT to see this in the Arcanum, a liberation. It's as clear as daylight. I don't see how there can be any confusion about this.

The prison walls, whether real or metaphorical are broken open in an explosion of some sort. I mean, the next card is the Star !!! and from then on the road gets MUCH easier. The initiation, the path, the journey becomes much lighter and brighter. It's soon over. This too indicates that it is a liberation and not a punishment.

Also from wikipedia : "The text sees God's actions not as a punishment for pride, but as an etiology of cultural differences".

Belenus is right to point out therefore that there is no mention of any kind of destruction of this tower.

Babel is Babylon. Who wouldn't want to be freed from Babylon ? As the prophet Bob Marley said : "Babylon no have no fruits".

Now I wonder where the idea that the Tower was destroyed come from ? I would think it were more a more recent urban legend, and not something from the Middle Ages, where the TdM originated.

[A-M]

Hi Belenus, disagreeing with me is fine. That's what a forum is for: discussion. Do not underestimate, however, my knowledge of the Bible. I have written four books on the symbolism in the Bible and in one of them is an thorough analysis of the story of Babel, delving in the old Hebrew language. Your arguments refer to the literal text. There is however symbolism woven in the story. For this you have to go back to the original words and not the translations.

Babel can also be interpreted as Bab-El: door of God

This is as far as I will go, further discussions make me tired. I was just giving my interpretation (without telling somebody else they are wrong...). However, I am used to getting strong, emotional reactions to my writings.

[Diana]

I was just giving my interpretation (without telling somebody else they are wrong...). However, I am used to getting strong, emotional reactions to my writings.

A-M: I don't think Belenus was having a strong, emotional reaction. He was just answering your post, in order to contribute further to this thread, according to his knowledge and understanding. If you would share more of your studies and research that you've done, I think we'd all be absolutely delighted. But you said you don't want to discuss anymore. I'm sorrry to hear that. I'd love to hear about the symbolism you mention. TdM folk love symbolism. Personally, I love the Bible - for me it's the greatest record of spiritual consciousness that has and ever will be written, and I'd love to hear more of the symbolism underlying it.

You will notice that I too didn't agree with you. If you have some great observations to add to change my mind, I'm all ears !! I believe everyone would be all ears.

Your contribution is most welcome. Loads of people associate the Maison Dieu with the Tower of Babel. Your kundalini observation was interesting too. But again, I don't think the creators of the Tarot cards would have been aware of kundalini, or anything even approaching it - like something similar in their beliefs and culture and practices.

[Diana]

Babel can also be interpreted as Bab-El: door of God

I love this ! Only because La Maison Dieu doesn't have a door ! Camoin added one along with some other quirky stuff, and there is at least one historical version that does have one. It definitely shouldn't have a door. I would never read with a deck that has a door on La Maison Dieu.

[Diana]

There's also the story in the Gospel of Matthew of what happened at the moment of Jesus' death :

Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God. (Matthew 27:50-54).

I assume that the Temple is the temple of Jerusalem. Temple of Jerusalem was the House of God.