LA JUSTICE VIII - and her quirks

[Diana]

I would like us, if you are willing, to talk about La Justice in the Tarot of Marseille.

The card I’m using to illustrate is from the very intelligently and beautifully restored Conver, the Isis Tarot de Marseille.

Now when you first look at this card, you sort of say - oh yes, Justice. Just like those statues in all the old towns in Europe. Or you get to think of all those Greek and Egyptian gods and goddesses of Justice who were not the kind you could negotiate with - their sense of justice was pretty extreme – some of them hurled people off cliffs of high mountains for heaven’s sake (although if they arrived safely, they would be considered innocent . It was all very Monty Python like in those days.) That’s scary stuff anyway. Then you start thinking about how in our society today justice and law are stern and implacable, and that they are often just puppets, they all serve some master or another anyway and their room for manoeuvre can be severely curtailed. Then you maybe even start getting all nervous and you remember that song “I fought the law and the law won” and you sigh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL8chWFuM-s
There must be about a million versions of this song.

This card can even make you start feeling guilty – all those bad karma points you’ve been collecting – is it now being ordained that you pay back your debts to your fellow men and society and to your gods ?

But I think we’re not seeing this Justice of the Tarot of Marseilles correctly.

Let’s first take that rope around her neck. It’s around her neck, it’s not hanging from her arm, or from one of the poles holding up whatever she’s sitting on. It looks more like a necklace than a rope intended for a hanging after rendering a death sentence. It’s almost an extension of her hair - which I do not believe it to be, but visually it seems so.

The very best explanation I’ve ever heard about this rope is this one : that Justice herself is not above the law. Her power is not so great, and of course I’m talking here about human justice. She could be hanged or even hang herself when she sees the game is up for her. Now why would the game be up for her ?

You see, she’s holding her scales in a most peculiar fashion. Not all proud and in perfect balance like on all those statues in the old towns of Europe or on engravings or all those pictures we have in our heads. Not only is it not balanced, but it seems she is actually pushing down deliberately with her left elbow (our right) one of the scales. Has she been corrupted ? I don’t think so, that would be a bit farfetched (although in an actual READING, this could be taken into account.) No, I don't think she's corruptible. Or is she rendering true justice by not necessarily obeying the laws of her land - she is a solar figure after all, she has that sun symbol on her headdress under the crown that is just visible – a solar figure would bring harmony it would seem, symbolically speaking, and light and vision.

Now that rope that was talked about previously. The one around HER neck, not ours. She would realise of course – she’s no fool - that by tweaking the law in favour of real justice, it could be game over for her. Her masters are watching her.

She doesn’t have a stern or an intimidating look. In fact, I swear, she looks a bit tired. Maybe she’s not pushing the scale down at all with her elbow and is just resting it for a while on her knee. Having a break during the relentless trials she has to reside over. Perhaps she’s just exhausted trying to get people to understand what Justice is. In this case, my whole post is a waste of time.

But I don’t think she’s tired. I think she’s pushing down the scale deliberately. This has in fact been mentioned numerous times in other places and books and by TdM specialists with various interpretations, but almost all agree that she is tweaking something (in Francophone circles at least, I don't know much about English language books and specialists) and is considered very significant. I have also always found it highly significant.

She may have her left foot (our right) on a snake or something that is to symbolise a snake. But I’m not sure of this. I haven’t taken the time to explore what this would mean. It may be a waste of time doing so, because maybe it isn’t a snake. It’s wavy anyway.

The colours are important in the Tarot of Marseilles. So I wonder if the yellow on the forearm of the arm pushing down the scale is of importance. I would suspect it does.

Some people say the only other rope in the TdM is that of the Hanged Man and that they can therefore be associated. I think this is nonsense, but if someone gives me a good argument I’m willing to change my mind.

Her blue headdress is unusual. But I think even more important is that bit of visible crown we see at the top. I don't know either exactly what this would signify. Yet. I hope we can discuss all this together.

Oh I nearly forgot. There's a lot of rope symbolism as well in different mythologies. Usually to do with linking the heavens with the earth. This may, just may have some significance. I dunno. I'm very much on the fence with that. Leaning more to the "no" side, but still hanging on. I wish we could resuscitate Nicolas Conver and he could explain everything to us.

[fire cat pickles]

Great topic and great post! Of course I immediately got to searching and ran across this:

https://dappledthings.org/10801/why-you ... ieval-art/

I'm still combing through the material, but what has struck me so far is "The right hand of God represents Mercy, and the left hand Justice." He is referring to the Crucifixion, where the "bad thief" is on His left:

[fire cat pickles]

Surely the snake bore underneath her left foot has some significance here? I'll be back with more! This article is fantastic!


"Mercy and Justice are themselves related to the New and Old Testaments..."

So Justice relates to the Old Testament. Mitsui goes on to indicate the Moon is the symbol of the Old Testament---a connection between the VIII and the XVIII, perhaps?

[Amoroso]

Great topic and great post! Of course I immediately got to searching and ran across this:

https://dappledthings.org/10801/why-you ... ieval-art/

I'm still combing through the material, but what has struck me so far is "The right hand of God represents Mercy, and the left hand Justice." He is referring to the Crucifixion, where the "bad thief" is on His left:

Interesting how similar tho ultimately opposite this is to the Three Pillars on the Tree of Life, with the Pillar of Mercy associated with the left hand side of the body and the Pillar of Severity with the right.

[Diana]

Great topic and great post! Of course I immediately got to searching and ran across this:

https://dappledthings.org/10801/why-you ... ieval-art/

I'm still combing through the material, but what has struck me so far is "The right hand of God represents Mercy, and the left hand Justice." He is referring to the Crucifixion, where the "bad thief" is on His left:

Oh my goodness, that article looks fascinating ! Thank you so much for linking to it. Will read it tonight when my day is over and have some quiet time.

[Diana]

Great topic and great post! Of course I immediately got to searching and ran across this:

https://dappledthings.org/10801/why-you ... ieval-art/

I'm still combing through the material, but what has struck me so far is "The right hand of God represents Mercy, and the left hand Justice." He is referring to the Crucifixion, where the "bad thief" is on His left:

Indeed, it is said that the right hand is Mercy and the left, Justice. I went to check even. I hadn't ever actually realised this or forgotten if I had.

I think you've struck a very important note here. It's like thunder in my ears even. Really helps me understand better this TdM Justice, who seems to be a very different kind of Justice to what one sees at first glance.

But I'll get further back to that in a separate post though when I respond specifically to the others that follow the one quoted here, as they expand on your input and add extras to the topic. (Otherwise things will get too messy and muddled up and the post would be too long to read.)

I'm puzzled about something in the picture you posted. In the article, Mitsui says that the good thief is under the Sun, which I agree, and the bad thief under the Moon. But I don't see any Moon above him. I see something sort of grotesque. Does anyone have any thoughts on this ?

I was interested to read how Mitsui explains that "Gothic art represents not a view into heaven but a view from heaven. It adopts the perspective of a heavenly being who sees events on earth—sees them, that is, with eyes that are not bound by time or space". I think this heavenly perspective could, in light of our present explorations, have something very much to do with the TdM Justice.

By the way, what kind of art is the TdM ? I'm clueless about art.

Also another thing that interested me was when he says : "The size of figures is determined by their importance, their placement by the demands of symbolism, hierarchy, and symmetry. Chronologically separate events may be depicted together in the same scene. Nothing important is hidden behind another object, or cut off by the edges of the picture."

Also, "My first advice to anyone who wishes to appreciate or make sacred art is not to treat art like data (..........). Real appreciation is gotten by paying serious attention to a work of art, just looking at it for a very long time. It is in the looking that communication through art happens." Which reminded of a quote I used just the other day in another thread. It's Henry David Thoreau who said : - the question is not what you look at, but what you see. And here we have returned again to our TdM Justice - we're back on topic - Is Justice looking or seeing ? Or is she doing both - depending on whether you're looking or seeing from the human perspective or from the heavenly perspective ?

Your post opened up a whole lot of doors for me, and I reckon also for others, and your hunting on the internet has certainly borne its fruits. So thank you firecatpickles.

(I'm wondering what the implications of this left/right business could have for l'Amoureux VI - the Lover.)

[fire cat pickles]

I'm puzzled about something in the picture you posted. In the article, Mitsui says that the good thief is under the Sun, which I agree, and the bad thief under the Moon. But I don't see any Moon above him. I see something sort of grotesque. Does anyone have any thoughts on this ?

I see a little, creepy moon face squeezed in the gargoyle's crotch...

By the way, what kind of art is the TdM ? I'm clueless about art.

His term Gothic art spans from the 12th to 15th centuries (16th in some areas.) https://www.britannica.com/art/Gothic-art

Also another thing that interested me was when he says : "The size of figures is determined by their importance, their placement by the demands of symbolism, hierarchy, and symmetry. Chronologically separate events may be depicted together in the same scene. Nothing important is hidden behind another object, or cut off by the edges of the picture."

(Noblet-Dodal-Conver-Fournier)

Is Justice looking or seeing ? Or is she doing both - depending on whether you're looking or seeing from the human perspective or from the heavenly perspective ?

Oversized rope, oversized eyes (look at them in the earlier versions). No feet? What's up with that? and her right hand seems rather large. An emphasis on mercy? I think Mitsui's suggestion that we are viewing this art from the heavenly perspective is very helpful. It explains the almost "un-human" way the figure is positioned in this card.

[Diana]

Surely the snake bore underneath her left foot has some significance here? I'll be back with more! This article is fantastic!

§"Mercy and Justice are themselves related to the New and Old Testaments..."

So Justice relates to the Old Testament. Mitsui goes on to indicate the Moon is the symbol of the Old Testament---a connection between the VIII and the XVIII, perhaps?

Thanks for the info about Gothic art and the Tarot and for having posted those four pictures. Most edifying. They do take up all the space don't they ? Also the fact that her feet are hidden is very interesting. I'd never noticed that. Strength has 6 toes on her feet, so feet seemed to have some importance for the TdM artists.

I think before we start assuming it's a snake, we should verify somehow. I think there may be other hidden snakes in the cards. Apparently there's one at the foot of the Empress. Alain Bocher, if I remember correctly, doesn't think it's a snake however, but telluric currents (I don't know if that's the right word in English.) I've also always wondered if the stick of the Hermit doesn't have a reference to a snake.

Anyway, to get back to our Mercy and Justice and New and Old Testaments. This reminds me that there were two laws established at different times in the Judaic/Christian world. One was the law of Moses, also called Hebraic law, the Old Testament. The Ten Commandments which were how to conduct oneself as a good human, and also the eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. That was human justice. Then along comes the New Testament, and only one commandment of the ten was retained by Jesus, plus another one that he added, although he said they are similar: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." This is the Mercy and divine justice. There is a difference between human justice and divine justice, for divine justice doesn't punish, seeing that "God is too pure to behold enquity".

I think when we study the TdM, we cannot ignore the biblical references. But to what extent these should be taken into account, I don't know. Hard to say.

I don't know if there is a connection between VIII and XVIII. Maybe. It's a good point to bring up. Theosophically, XVIII adds up to 9 and not 8. I've never figured out what kind of numerology we should apply to the TdM. I would assume Pythagorean. But there is a reference to the Sun in our TdM Justice with her solar sign, so if we're on the right track, logically there should be a reference to the Moon too. If the Moon has a negative aspect, then would this mean that we should be wary of the Moon in the TdM ? Personally, the Moon card in the TdM has always freaked me out. I hate it when it turns up in a reading.

We have here our tarot Justice who doesn't seem very interested in applying human justice. She doesn't seem to be paying much attention to her scales. The rope around her neck, said rope maybe symbolising the connection between heaven and earth, is perhaps to show us that although she is an intermediary between the high and the low, the inner and the outer, that her directives and judgments come from another source, not human, but divine.

Edited much later to add : I notice that in all four versions of Justice that are posted above, the scales are unbalanced and that she's either tweaking them deliberately, or not paying attention, or even more extreme, not giving a damn. Pfff... why should I hold those scales up like those cousins of mine. Much too tiring for the arms.

[Diana]

Interesting how similar tho ultimately opposite this is to the Three Pillars on the Tree of Life, with the Pillar of Mercy associated with the left hand side of the body and the Pillar of Severity with the right.

Oh my, this sounds interesting. I have never ever studied the qabalah. Will read this article you link to later this evening. Sounds intriguing what you say, because why would this be ultimately opposite ? If you have any thoughts on this, please share.

[Diana]

It was pointed out to me in a book I'm reading that in the first part of the Middle Ages, the sword and the scale were the attributes of the archangel Michael, who probably took the place of Osiris who weighed the souls.

Maybe this doesn't add anything to this thread but who knows. As this was new to me, I thought I'd mention it.

[fire cat pickles]

It was pointed out to me in a book I'm reading that in the first part of the Middle Ages, the sword and the scale were the attributes of the archangel Michael, who probably took the place of Osiris who weighed the souls.

Maybe this doesn't add anything to this thread but who knows. As this was new to me, I thought I'd mention it.


Michael.jpg

Ummm, are you kidding me? Of course it does!

[Amoroso]

Interesting how similar tho ultimately opposite this is to the Three Pillars on the Tree of Life, with the Pillar of Mercy associated with the left hand side of the body and the Pillar of Severity with the right.

Oh my, this sounds interesting. I have never ever studied the qabalah. Will read this article you link to later this evening. Sounds intriguing what you say, because why would this be ultimately opposite ? If you have any thoughts on this, please share.

I was thinking that the human-divine dichotomy may have something to do with it, but it may also be due to a difference in religious views, since the article fire cat pickles mentioned seems to be primarily Catholic/Christian while the Qabala is Jewish-based.

[Diana]

I was thinking that the human-divine dichotomy may have something to do with it, but it may also be due to a difference in religious views, since the article fire cat pickles mentioned seems to be primarily Catholic/Christian while the Qabala is Jewish-based.

Amoroso: I have heard spoken of both Greek Kabbalah and Jewish Kabbalah. Would you know anything about the former, and also why it is assumed by some that it is the Jewish one that may be embedded in the Tarot rather than this Greek one ?

[Amoroso]

Not familiar with the Greek. I don't think the Qabala is assumed by some as Jewish-based, more like it is known and almost universally accepted as such. I may be wrong tho.

Just to clarify, while the Hermetic Qabala that's used in the Tarot is based from the Jewish Kabbalah, it is not recognized as an "official" offspring of the latter, at least by rabbis and Jewish scholars. It's to be treated as a different discipline since it caters more to Western esoteric philosophies.

[Charlie Brown]

It was pointed out to me in a book I'm reading that in the first part of the Middle Ages, the sword and the scale were the attributes of the archangel Michael, who probably took the place of Osiris who weighed the souls.

Do you know if this was instead of or in addition their symbolizing Justice as a Virtue?

[Diana]

Do you know if this was instead of or in addition their symbolizing Justice as a Virtue?

Charlie Brown, good question. The author doesn't say, so I did a bit of research and it would seem they were concomittant.

Now, if I were to resume what I've understood so far from this discussion, it would be briefly as follows :

That the TdM Justice is not particularly concerned with human affairs. She's hugely lethargic in carrying out those duties, it would seem from the cards. So if it's not human justice, it's divine justice. She's a solar entity, so in fact has direct and instant communication with the divine.

She does not obey human laws. Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee? Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin. "My Kingdom is not of this world".

But of course, as the Tarot needs also to be practical, otherwise it would just be another wonderful book of pictures, this card has of course a double meaning. All the Tarot cards have upright and reversed readings. It reminds us that human justice can be treacherous. And can end up being so twisted that it hangs itself... and maybe you along with it if you're unlucky enough to have the Wheel of Fortune also reversed following on in the reading.

And I've realised that there would be some benefits in going to the local library to take out some books on Gothic art. Kris Hadar always always insists that one should put oneself in the MINDSET as much as is possible (which probably isn't much, but beggars can't be choosers) of the people who lived in those times. He's so right.

[Diana]

I've been thinking an awful lot about Justice since this thread started. It is important I think to ponder on Justice. And Injustice. And Balance. And imbalance. In French, the word for scales is "balance" and being bilingual, I dialogue in my head in both languages. Also, whereas in English you say for instance "there's no balance", the French word is equilibrium. That's a nice word equilibrium.

The more I think of it, the more I am satisfied and most pleased that our TdM Justice does not seem particularly interested in any form of human justice. After all these years, I'd never noticed how indifferent she looks to it, through her attitude and how she is holding the scales. The way she's holding them is also weird, looks like she's not holding them at all. Normal I suppose as she's not really using them. And what on earth is that thing that looks again like some leminscate or perhaps also a kind of a rope that serves as a handle ? Or is it just a hook to hang it up when not required ?

Also, she's not in a courtroom but outdoors. There's a plant growing in the sandy soil. Looks like she could be in a desert. Although the plant is yellow and not green. It's also an oddity. And we need to discuss what she's sitting in front of. My goodness, this card is so rich with detail.

On another related subject, the Sûrat Ar-Rahmân from the Holy Qur'an really caught my attention when I came across it just yesterday (the words in brackets are in my edition of the Qur'an to clarify some of the intricacies due to translation I suppose) :

1. The Most Beneficent (Allah)!
2. Has taught (you mankind) the Qur'an (by His Mercy).
3. He created man.
4. He taught him eloquent speech.
5. The sun and the moon run on their fixed courses (exactly) calculated with measured out stages for each (for reckoning, etc.).
6. And the herbs (or stars) and the trees both prostrate.
7. And the heaven He has raised high, and He has set up the Balance.
8. In order that you may not transgress (due) balance.
9. And observe the weight with equity and do not make the balance deficient.

It then goes on for some time and then this :

50. And Our Commandment is but one, as the twinkling of an eye.
51. And indeed, We have destroyed your likes, then is there any that will remember (or receive admonition)?
52. And each and everything they have done is noted in (their) Records (of deeds).
53. And everything, small and big is written (in Al Lauh Al-Mahfüz already beforehand i.e. before it befalls, or is done by its doer).

It's a very long Sûrat and continues on after this but I just copied the parts that I found most relevant to this thread.