Forum Drama and Our Culture

[Joan Marie]

A while back, it’s been a couple of years ago now, we had some drama here.

The gist of it was a member here made a post that would have fit perfectly well in this, "Devil’s Advocate" section because it was a "controversial or unpopular opinion."

This is actually a lot of the reason I (finally) came up with the Devil’s Advocate section. It gives those kinds of opinions and feelings a proper context for friendly discussion where people can say what they want and agree to disagree.

At the time though, this person’s post just came across, in my opinion, as a bit mean and intolerant. I wasn’t the only one who thought that and the drama ensued in the forum as well as in private conversations.

I regret how it played out. A lot of people were mad, some left the forum. I temporarily banned one person because I just felt like they were only escalating things. That person did not appreciate that. Neither did some others.

The whole thing played out much like this current controversy over "The Slap" at the Oscars. Some people see only one side, others see both, some flip-flop, and there are differing opinions of how it should have been handled.

For myself, I see now that I over-reacted. (I don’t think I was the only one though.) But I did do something that I had at the beginning of this forum said I would not do which is over-moderate. Aggressive moderation was one of the big complaints many people had with the Aeclectic forum and I did not want to make that same mistake, but there I went and got too worked up about a discussion that was happening here and essentially squashed it.

What I couldn’t tolerate was what felt to me like bullying. I stand by that. HOWEVER, I handled it badly. If there had been something like Devil’s Advocate at the time, it would have been better for everyone. We could have put the discussion into a productive context. Instead, what we had was something like one of those stupid Facebook wars everyone hates.

I’m happy to report that Cult of Tarot is a drama-free zone. People here are cool. I’ve always been proud of that.
But whilst being drama-free, we’re also not the liveliest place either, (I'm sure you've noticed) although you may be surprised to know we get hundreds of visitors a week. I think most come for the "Today’s Card" post. FYI, my recent posts during the Spring Equinox readings received nearly 1,000 views in under 2 weeks. We also have new members joining almost daily.

Someone recently said to me that this forum is an attempt to re-vitalise our culture's spiritual life.

I’ve been thinking about this.

My very first Devil’s Advocate post was called Consuming the Tarot and questioned the current state of Tarot in social media just devolving into a consumer frenzy of deck collecting and kickstarter announcements. I think those things are great by the way, but not to the exclusion, as my friend put it, of our culture’s spiritual life.

The dearth of posts here is not something I worry about. I know that these days it’s really hard to get into social media stuff. There are only so many hours in a day. I’m happy people stop by, but they don’t stay. But I wonder, where ARE people going to celebrate, to experience our culture’s spiritual life? What would that even look like?

Or is this a candle that’s just guttering on the windowsill about to extinguish itself?

So here is my Devil’s Advocate statement:

I really think we are part of a growing culture of modern people whose interests are not well served by the internet where our craft (if I’m allowed to call it that) is represented mainly by commerce and arguing. I feel like the more mystical, metaphysical, spiritual, occult, whatever you want to call it, part of all this is lost, wandering in the desert aimless.

The aforementioned drama reflected this issue and how we use spaces like this forum. It wasn’t simply a disagreement about the practice of cleansing a deck. It was an attack on people who derived something important and meaningful from performing that ritual, and people who insisted, in an insulting, belittling way, that it was silly.

I regret I wasn’t able to direct or moderate the discussion into something more productive because even if the anti-cleansing people weren’t convinced, they may have been able to appreciate and learn something. And the people who use and respect these rituals could have had the chance to share their experiences and practices to all our benefits.

So, is there any hope for revitalising our culture in the current online atmosphere? Who out there is doing it? Is the internet even the place for it? Can it be?

[chiscotheque]

Isn't this opinion part and parcel of the overriding fact that "we are part of a growing culture of modern people whose interests are not well served by the internet", full stop? Disinformation on top of misinformation on top of just too much unfiltered information is destabilizing society's grasp on reality, already over-dependent on technology at the cost of lost experience with people, things, and the self. As with all such delusional evasions of reality, consequences all too real are happening and will end in tears.

As for the mystical, metaphysical aspects: how could they be had via the internet? Maybe the mistake was ever thinking such things could be had via the internet, or even that such things could be had alongside the internet - separate and unaffected.

Mankind (pardon the oxymoron) has been moving away from the mystical and spiritual for a long time now, haven't they? At least since Eden. We can't intellectually choose to go back to a simpler, happier, more spiritual time it seems; instead, we're addictively compelled along at an ever-increasing tempo - like a bouncing ball speeding up before it stops.

[Joan Marie]

Mankind (pardon the oxymoron) has been moving away from the mystical and spiritual for a long time now, haven't they?

In the early 20th century there was a measurable rise in interest in spiritualism and occult topics that has been attributed to a reaction to modernity and modernisation of daily life as well as to the horrors of WW1 and the influenza epidemic that rained death and destruction over the earth.

It's documented in detail in a book I can't find at the moment but when I do, I'll add it to this post.

EDIT: The book I was referring to is called "A Science for the Soul: Occultism and the Genesis of the German Modern" by Corinna Treitel

In those days, access to printing and distribution fed a massive influx of magazines and books dedicated to esoteric topics. Thousands of clubs and organisations were formed around special interests like Theospohy, Vegetarianism, Cartomancy, Seance and a ton of other things. (The book I can't find includes a detailed index of all those publications and organisations.) Communities were formed in remote places that drew great minds from all over in the quest for a better world.

This was all pre-internet.

I really thought at one time that we were entering another phase like this, where the search for a better way to live that wasn't fuelled by consumerism, capitalism, and competition, could be explored and nurtured. We could search for answers and guidance and community as we navigated modern life and all its complexity. And the internet, with forums like this and other sites, could be the places that happened.

In the post I referred to above, "Consuming the Tarot" I had originally posited that it was consumerism that was drowning out nuanced discussion and even interest in the mystical, spiritual, magical (or whatever you wish to call it) side of our practice of Tarot.

I was surprised that SO MANY people responded with how the internet had become so toxic and even dangerous for people to speak their minds or broach controversy or even just state a preference, and that there was so much bullying and dog-piling happening, that people just choose to stay with the most "acceptable" topics of discussion in order to keep their "brand" unsullied by controversy.

So, to return to your comment at the top of this post, I think people naturally try to move toward the mystical and spiritual, especially in trying times, but rather than find support and community they are thwarted by the compulsion people seem to have to be on top, or to "win" every discussion.

Someone even commented at the time time of the little drama we had back when, that the energy of the discussion reminded them of that "Change my Mind" meme that was going around, where everything was just an argument and no one's opinion or insight could do anything but fuel that antagonistic energy.

No topic too silly to be made into an argument.

The concepts of nuance or acceptance that other ideas and experiences can even co-exist have been lost to the maelstrom created by an extreme fringe who have driven the points so far from any logic that we've all been sort of trained to "one/zero" everything we hear. Every discussion becomes fraught.

In the face of all that, I thought this place could be different. And it is . But in all honesty, I don't know how to make it thrive better. I get it people are sort of "over" a lot of the things tarot forums used to be about. And I have resisted creating "general discussion" areas in an effort to drive activity senselessly.

However, I think there could be something here that isn't here as of yet. Something more like those publications that rose up in the 1920s, full of information and things people could build something around. In these times it could do some good, help people navigate their own development, together but as individuals.

Or is the Tarot even up to that challenge? Is it just a hobby or is it something more?

[DuckSoupProductions]

Ha! Not much to disagree with here! Culture as a whole is not well-served by the internet, and particularly "social media," that term itself having taken on a mocking, ironic quality. Too many have taken upon themselves the mission to shout down and silence anyone and everyone who holds an opposing view. And when someone is angry (myself included), they "read" their own anger into any response, making any dialogue impossible. This is not freedom of speech. It's the opposite. Humans as a species have never been more self-important and entitled than they are right now. I know I'm not alone when I say that it's exhausting.

[jobarghest]

This is such an interesting topic.

I think one difficulty is that spirituality concerns very deeply held feelings. It is frightening and vulnerable to share these online, as you're truly sharing a piece of yourself.

I love the idea of really busy tarot forums. I personally feel safer to discuss things within those environments, as you can properly discuss and modify your opinions as a group partnership. That feels connecting as well as expansive. I love hearing about very different approaches.

I am personally afraid to discuss deeply held feelings about integrity and spirituality, as I've experienced my thoughts being taken out of context elsewhere but without having the chance to explore them or have a conversation. It feels very vulnerable, invasive and distressing. I think other people must feel this way too.

The speed at which issues accelerate and get distorted online is also frightening, and is possibly one reason people simply don't raise complex opinions- and spirituality is incredibly complex and comes from a hugely wide range of backgrounds and approaches so there is a very high risk of things becoming explosive even with the best of intentions.

Ideas can't emerge, mutate (in a good way) or fade online, they are set in time in a static state. I feel this is somehow a bit out of place with the natural state of esoteric/spiritual beliefs, as they constantly change. My 'safe' space for such conversations is in person, in a liminal state or place or time of day.

I wonder if online there is a stronger urge for people to find finality. It feels this way to me. I'm not sure why- but it seems many more people want the 'final' response or the last word. As Joan mentioned it feels harder to have 2 points existing at the same time- there is a certain lack of paradox. And I feel paradox is generative.

I also feel immediate response can cause polarised opinions. With written text in paper form, you have time to absorb and ponder it, even integrate things you initially discarded. I wonder if the age of many pamphlets was helpful in this regard. It also makes connection more meaningful and selective in a way as it's harder- you have to reach out as opposed to clicking a button. And you don't have as many distractions either

The setup of the internet also prods everyone towards commerce, even if the participants truly didn't intend that to be the focus. This to me creates a degree of confusion and sense of overwhelm, also of disconnection as it's not an equal organic system. It makes it harder for all the participants to share, enjoy the interactions and to thrive there. It also makes it harder to find places to discuss things freely.

Another aspect is that any 'learning' aspect feels harder online. Therapy is an interesting comparison. People might be at very different stages or states within spirituality and have different needs. In most therapeutic contexts the space would be carefully boundaried and confidential. That creates the trust and connection which allows honesty and understanding. Online stuff has many random treasures but you could equally get a destructive jack-in-the-box experience and have no resources to resolve it. (As you're usually alone behind a PC).

Holding a space online is super challenging, many cues are absent such as sight, sound, touch, body language, even general energies. I am unsurprised that Aeclectic closed although it looked fascinating, that is a lot of weight for a moderator to bear. It is great this site exists!

[Galahad]

Interesting topic indeed!
Concerning the below, feel free to replace "is" with "seems to be"/"feels"

Concerning the internet, depth is lacking.
Also, censorship is an issue - way too high for things to bear fruit or way too low, makes discussions go haywire.
Mentality, also.
Quick to condemn, late to apologize.
And theft.
Maybe that is the reason why depth is lacking.

The Tarot; weird stuff is happening.
Many want to be praised as sages, but who dares to explore what sagacity means to her?
And who dares to consider that the answer arrived at may be but a glimpse of the thing itself?
Instead of enjoying to see those old pictures anew through the eyes of that child that wants to learn to read,
now that the latest wave of unearthing the tarot myths 'n facts is done,
dogma becomes established once again.
Boring for a brain that wants to reach its own conclusions.

I'll leave culture out - it is in crisis either way.

[chiscotheque]

Traditional media such as music, painting, theatre, and literature, have developed over centuries. The internet, on the other hand, is a new untamed beast, and it is developing in relation to us as we are developing in relation to it in "real time" as it were. It may be like very early cinema, before it found its own language or properly located its strengths and weaknesses. The toxicity of social media is its own horror story, such that it can't be entirely compartmentalized because its poison infects almost every nook and cranny of the internet, from news sites to trolls. Not only does it cater to the lowest common denominator, it often redirects our focus to a lowly denominator that isn't actually common at all but only purports to be. I'm talking of its dangerous power to recreate reality. All media by definition recreates reality, but the older models I mentioned at the outset developed over lifetimes, were guided by a wide range of motivations, cultivated and curated. Along with the human element, the medium itself - here the internet, but any medium - has its strengths and weaknesses, its own in-built biases shaping its message. Maybe the internet is a tool yet to be harnassed, which we are in the midst of harnessing. Maybe it's a tool that can't be harnessed, will harness us, or will help to take us both down. Maybe, in other words, we expect too much of the internet, or - like the honeymoon period wearing off to the realization this marriage was a terrible mistake - we are expecting the wrong things.

What is the mystical, but that the mystical is had and only had through the medium of the physical, the lumpenproletariat of matter? Matter without the mystic is mechanical, and the mystic without matter is impossible. Perhaps the fundamental problem with the internet - the problem we are discussing here with regard to the spiritual and the problem broadly speaking - is that the internet is not "real", is not physical so cannot be metaphysical. We think we are engaged in an open dialogue but we are trapped in a loveless marriage with a vacuum. A hell of mirrors. This may be why the internet is so addictive - it's an escape from reality.

For the record, didn't the interest in Theosophy, Vegetarianism, Cartomancy, etc. occur in the late Victorian era and predate WWI and the Spanish Flu? As such, weren't they a move toward the ethereal away from the iron fist in the velvet glove of the Belle Epoque, the Gilded Age, and the Fin de Siecle? Post-1919, the movement seemed to be toward the physical rather than the metaphysical - toward tubs of gin, aeroplane wing walking, the charleston, fitness crazes, permissiveness. It seems physical stability leads to the pursuit of the metaphysical, the way the staid suburban '50s burgeoned into the psyche expansion of the '60s. Today, we have physical upheaval - politically from factionalism and demagogic disrupters like Trump, economically, epidemiologically, environmentally, etc. The internet seems far more effective as a tool for further disruption and escapism than it could ever be for metaphysics.

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