Cult of Tarot Forum

What life-altering things should every human ideally get to experience at least once in their lives?

Deck: The Alfred Hitchcock Tarot

Card: 6 of Cups Champagne/Downhill

Answer: As unexpected or counter-intuitive as it sounds, every human ideally should experience dejection, destitution, and misery.

In both Champagne and Downhill, the otherwise privileged central characters experience social rejection, penury, and what it means to be disadvantaged. Without this first-hand insight into what a struggle life is for so many people, empathy - if one had it at all - would be academic at best. The pitfalls of hubris, arrogance, ridicule, revulsion, resentment, and classism would be too hard for most people to avoid - it's hard enough as it is!

I should make clear that in both Champagne and Downhill the characters are reinstated to their respective and respected social positions - as dark as The Hitchcock Tarot may be at times, it doesn't here imply every human should ideally experience hardship and misfortune permanently. In fact, both characters are young people - it is the 6 of Cups after all - suggesting a certain amount of adversity should attend every person's upbringing, when they are still impressionable, adaptable, and resilient.


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chiscotheque wrote: ↑14 Sep 2019, 02:36 What life-altering things should every human ideally get to experience at least once in their lives?
Answer: As unexpected or counter-intuitive as it sounds, every human ideally should experience dejection, destitution, and misery.

In fact, don't many tribal societies ritualise this process with ceremonies at puberty designed to give their young first hand experience of fear, solitude, powerlessness, humiliation and suffering. Is this civilising experience of disaster the kind of thing that is being talked about in The Tower card (XVI)?

dodalisque wrote: ↑18 Sep 2019, 20:42 don't many tribal societies ritualise this process with ceremonies at puberty designed to give their young first hand experience of fear, solitude, powerlessness, humiliation and suffering. Is this civilising experience of disaster the kind of thing that is being talked about in The Tower card (XVI)?

there are examples of extreme rites of passage, like being stung by ants or crude circumcision rituals - your mention of the Tower brings to mind the bungee-type jumping ritual known as Vanuatu land jumping. These rites could be said to be condensed ritualized versions of what i was suggesting, but they are largely symbolic and do not confer much in the way of the essential learning my argument contended.

As for these examples or my example being talked about by the Tower card, that could be argued, especially within a particular context such as a reading, but otherwise, objectively I would say no. These rituals of tribal societies - and modern developed societies have them too, albeit watered-down, from Bar Mitzvahs to Confirmation to debutante balls - are intended to initiate adolescents into the larger society, whereas the Tower card talks of an ejection from an organizing structure such as one's society. The protection and innocence of childhood could be what one is being ejected from, but seen in context, the Tower is late within the Major Arcana sequence, long after notions of adolescence (Empress, Emperor, Lovers, etc.). On a deeper level, the Tower marks a rift within one's own psyche or fundament - something which takes years to build up, brick by brick as the castle signifies. That which makes us feel safe, gives us comfort, protects us from the harsh realities, is what is being shaken to the foundations in the Tower - in this way, it's more of a rite of passage bookend, an empty nest syndrome of the self, which naturally occurs later in a project's trajectory or one's life.


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chiscotheque wrote: ↑14 Sep 2019, 02:36

Answer: As unexpected or counter-intuitive as it sounds, every human ideally should experience dejection, destitution, and misery.

In both Champagne and Downhill, the otherwise privileged central characters experience social rejection, penury, and what it means to be disadvantaged. Without this first-hand insight into what a struggle life is for so many people, empathy - if one had it at all - would be academic at best. The pitfalls of hubris, arrogance, ridicule, revulsion, resentment, and classism would be too hard for most people to avoid - it's hard enough as it is!

I should make clear that in both Champagne and Downhill the characters are reinstated to their respective and respected social positions - as dark as The Hitchcock Tarot may be at times, it doesn't here imply every human should ideally experience hardship and misfortune permanently. In fact, both characters are young people - it is the 6 of Cups after all - suggesting a certain amount of adversity should attend every person's upbringing, when they are still impressionable, adaptable, and resilient.

I was missing Plato's Cave so I came back to unearth some threads. I saw this one and read it and said "hmmmm". And then I said "hmmmm" again.

I've never seen these movies. Do the protagonists "learn" from their experience ? Do they become "better" people ? I'm not sure where you caught this empathy aspect of the reading. So I think maybe it's got something to do with the movies and that this is why it came to your mind ?

I would think that a lack of empathy allows people to live without guilt or shame. They sleep very comfortably at night. All the Trumps and Bolsonaros for instance, to use two caricatures. I have a very close acquaintance who has the empathy of a broomstick. It's astounding. He can look at children being bombed in Yemen and dying of hunger and won't blink an eyelid. (Or has he developed this as a means to protect himself and not suffer? He's otherwise a very nice guy.) Empathy can cause great pain to the person who is identifying with the situation at hand. Mostly when we know there is nothing we can do practically to influence the situation and make things better.

Concerning the youth. I was struck by the expression on the young man's face who is lugging that heavy suitcase up the stairs. (I think he's going up and not down?). It seems a long haul and not easy. I'm not sure that I'd agree with you that this reading shows it's better to have problems when one is young. I think that lugging that heavy suitcase will leave its mark and that it would be better handled by someone stronger (i.e. an adult). I think also that the rose of the Champagne will wither or at the best, never again smell so sweet. And the innocence of youth will be tainted forever.

chiscotheque wrote: ↑14 Sep 2019, 02:36 What life-altering things should every human ideally get to experience at least once in their lives?

This reminds me of something I once read. When Sylvia Plath was a young woman she said she would never be able to write until she had experienced 3 things:
Falling in love, being present at a birth and being present at a death.

I can confirm these are all life altering and nothing compares to them.
These 3 experiences will also show one, in addition to a lot of other important things,

the pitfalls of hubris, arrogance, ridicule, revulsion, resentment, and classism

and teach empathy.

Diana wrote: ↑26 Jan 2020, 15:55 I've never seen these movies. Do the protagonists "learn" from their experience ? Do they become "better" people ? I'm not sure where you caught this empathy aspect of the reading. So I think maybe it's got something to do with the movies and that this is why it came to your mind ?

I would think that a lack of empathy allows people to live without guilt or shame. They sleep very comfortably at night. All the Trumps and Bolsonaros for instance, to use two caricatures. I have a very close acquaintance who has the empathy of a broomstick. It's astounding. He can look at children being bombed in Yemen and dying of hunger and won't blink an eyelid. (Or has he developed this as a means to protect himself and not suffer? He's otherwise a very nice guy.) Empathy can cause great pain to the person who is identifying with the situation at hand. Mostly when we know there is nothing we can do practically to influence the situation and make things better.

Concerning the youth. I was struck by the expression on the young man's face who is lugging that heavy suitcase up the stairs. (I think he's going up and not down?). It seems a long haul and not easy. I'm not sure that I'd agree with you that this reading shows it's better to have problems when one is young. I think that lugging that heavy suitcase will leave its mark and that it would be better handled by someone stronger (i.e. an adult). I think also that the rose of the Champagne will wither or at the best, never again smell so sweet. And the innocence of youth will be tainted forever.

In the films, they essentially learn, but we don't spend too much time with them after the fact. champagne has a brat learning what is valuable in life, whereas downhill is more of a young man wrongfully accused who becomes something of a prodigal so and all is forgiven and revealed in the end. as the title of the film suggests, the young man in downhill is going down the stairs (escalator actually). both are rich and privileged, and they're young people, not children.

i'm sure lack of empathy does allow people to live without guilt or shame - but guilt and shame exist for a reason; there are valid reasons for feeling both. some people - like those you mention - are monsters precisely because they have no shame. i am not interested in whether they have good night sleeps. arguably, sociopaths cannot and will never learn empathy, any more than a worm can learn french or a footstool mathematics. such hopeless cases are beyond the question's scope.

youth is there to be tainted; it's called growing up. if the young man doesn't lug his suitcase, he's gonna end up with some serious baggage. i'm not suggesting children should be forced into labor camps, rather that if we don't mature and come to see life for how it is rather than how we want it to be, we don't stay children but become childish men. and childish men with the ability to do what they want with no negative consequences are the kind of inhuman monsters that would "empathize" with trump and bolsonaro, or become heartless tyrants themselves.

of course, sometimes hardship destroys a person, but that was not what i was advocating. and sometimes people draw the wrong conclusions from hardships - ie, they had it bad so they deserve more than others, or if they succeed then everyone else in hard times can too. chalk it up to the variety of human understanding, and its limitations.


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chiscotheque wrote: ↑26 Jan 2020, 20:17

youth is there to be tainted; it's called growing up. if the young man doesn't lug his suitcase, he's gonna end up with some serious baggage. i'm not suggesting children should be forced into labor camps, rather that if we don't mature and come to see life for how it is rather than how we want it to be, we don't stay children but become childish men. and childish men with the ability to do what they want with no negative consequences are the kind of inhuman monsters that would "empathize" with trump and bolsonaro, or become heartless tyrants themselves.

of course, sometimes hardship destroys a person, but that was not what i was advocating. and sometimes people draw the wrong conclusions from hardships - ie, they had it bad so they deserve more than others, or if they succeed than everyone else in hard times can too. chalk it up to the variety of human understanding, and its limitations.


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But I don't see where empathy comes from in the reading itself. I don't see it.

Are you not just giving your personal opinion here about how children should grow up ? When you say "youth is there to be tainted; it's called growing up".

Makes sense that he's going down if he's on an escalator. It would have been a strange way to lug a suitcase down if one is on a staircase. That's where my confusion lay.

Diana wrote: ↑27 Jan 2020, 07:47 But I don't see where empathy comes from in the reading itself. I don't see it.

Are you not just giving your personal opinion here about how children should grow up ? When you say "youth is there to be tainted; it's called growing up".

really i should preamble everything i say and write with "in my opinion..." more specifically, a reading by its nature relies heavily on opinion, although there are those i suppose who would call it a form of divine inspiration, or perhaps educated guess-work - like a psychiatrist who interprets a dream about driving an out of control car with no breaks as indicating the dreamer fears powerlessness. of course, taken to its logical conclusion, that this or anything is only my opinion is itself only an opinion.

to recap - the question was: what life-changing events should all people experience? the card i got back contained 2 narrative threads, both comprised mainly of privileged young people who experience hardship basically for the first time. through it all they learn what it's like for other people and how good they themselves have it - gratitude and perspective. given the question, i had to interpret (or interpolate) a response - i could hardly say simply that everyone should experience hardship for its own sake and leave it at that. as befits the 6 of cups, the boy and girl are young - maybe 18 or 20 - and further sheltered by their upbringing - it wasn't exactly a quantum leap to evaluate this detail as the imperative importunity inherent in youth to mature, put down childish things, and come to understand both the world and themselves.

this latter was one of the key elements - one might argue that in a perfect world we should stay children. in fact, christ suggests as much with his assertion to be fit for heaven we must be like little children. the metaphorical and eschatological implications of that aside, children can be nasty, and an adult man who is adolescent is dangerous, insufferable, and all too common. my point: learning the truth about people and the world could arguably be a pointlessly sad spoilation of innocent bliss, except that learning the truth about the outside world is mirrored and concomitant with learning the truth about oneself - the honored know thyself. if we don't descend "downhill" past the champagne of our conscious self and learn about and from the subconscious, well, for one thing, we get the blind leading the blind of populist demagoguery. for another, we get a covetous culture of shirked responsibility, soulless consumerism, and mercenary infantilism. granted, i chose to shorthand (or shoehorn) this with "empathy", an interpretation of sorts, but what else is the knocking off of an ego from its pedestal besides the repositioning? one is shown what it's like to be poor, weak, unfairly treated; in short: other than the self-appointed paradigm of perfection.

speaking of demagogues like trump and bolsonaro, the opposite example which underscores my point is FDR. "in my opinion..." the best president of the US - why? the ins and outs of his actual policies and ideas aside, he was able to be great because of his weakness: polio. it enabled a blue-stocking boy from an elite family to understand the average person, and speak directly to them with his fireside chats about their concerns in a way they understood. while FDR was a sort-of progressively-leaning democrat in his early political life, he became the unique character we know him as after his crippling outbreak and normally career-destroying struggle with polio. this brought him into direct contact with all kinds of people in a similar plight (in hospitals and eventually his rehabilitation centre Warm Springs), which enabled him - a man of wealth - to understand the plight of the poor during the Depression. luckily he also had eleanor, who, when it came to minorities and the marginalized, pushed him further in this direction: the direction of empathy.



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Makes good sense what you say. But don't forget, I had Charlie Brown point out to me that I was extrapolating and putting my own wishes or fears into my interpretation in the Wheel of Fortune affair in Plato's Cave, so now I'm on my guard and maybe see Wheel of Fortunes wherever I go. I think I got traumatised!

But then again, is it possible to not have hard experiences when one is growing up. It's inevitable. Of course, there are always degrees. The child who has violent parents for instance will always suffer more than the child who weeps because she didn't get chosen as prima ballerina for the school dance show. But the child who weeps for her dream that she has been longing to realise must also receive our compassion and understanding.

There are few who manage to rise up after great abuse or sorrow however - I know that you were not suggesting that people need go through horrors. I watched something a few months ago about a guy who had managed to lift himself up after having lived through the Rwanda genocide having seen his family hacked to pieces when he was about 14. He's gone on to study law in the United States and had, at least according to him, found means to rise above all this. The work that he was doing with refugees was remarkable and so intelligent. This may have been due to his upbringing, or something already within him that he was born with. But still, the wounds must have gone very deep and I'm sure sometimes when he's alone with his thoughts, the painful memories must arise.

But it's hard to rise from that kind of hardship.

So downhill is inevitable. It's what we do with the downhill after. And the resources we have. And maybe the people who have the resources could do a bit more to share with those who don't. A bit more empathy - not only in feelings - but also in action. Otherwise out empathy serves no real purpose except for us to pat ourselves on the backs saying we have a lot of empathy. Because there are too many people unable to rise by themselves. We need to lift them up, those who only wept because they couldn't be the prima ballerina. (that child is not me by the way, although I did a lot of ballet when I was a child.)

Such a fascinating thread, thank you.
It's interesting that both Golden Dawn and Crowley regard the 6 of Cups as a particularly positive card. The Golden Dawn speaks of 'accomplishment'; Crowley says it is the Lord of Pleasure, and that the 6s represent their elements at their practical best. But I've long felt that the RWS depiction is ambiguous at best, sinister in some circumstances.

I've had an enjoyable time watching parts of "Champagne" and "Downfall" on YouTube - I don't think I'd ever thought about Hitchcock's work pre-mid 1930s.
Of course, both films display the vagaries of English social class, with money playing a vital, but not leading, role. Selfishness and self-sacrifice are important themes, yet I wonder whether the opening premise of 'Downfall' - that loyalty to a friend overrides truth, and the reaction of his father and repercussions [exile] - was plausible even at the time?
But I suppose the first response to the question might be that 'no good deed goes unpunished'
Worse still, the most prominent lesson as far as I could see was that 'people can be duplicitous, and are not to be trusted'.

So, for me, the life-altering thing would be along the lines of daring to trust... being willing to take a leap of faith. It seems to me that this is often a pre-requisite for falling in love. In this sense, the 6 of Cups refers back to The Lovers.

Just a comment about the notions of guilt and shame... In my experience, shame is possibly the most corrosive, toxic, soul-destroying experience, with no positives whatsoever. Guilt is a different matter, and something which, where appropriate, is to be encouraged. Guilt says 'I did bad', implying regret and hopefully reparation. Shame says 'I am bad'... and I subscribe to the belief that no one who believes that about themself can be deserving of such condemnation.

Aoife wrote: ↑01 Feb 2020, 11:51
But I suppose the first response to the question might be that 'no good deed goes unpunished'
Worse still, the most prominent lesson as far as I could see was that 'people can be duplicitous, and are not to be trusted'.

So, for me, the life-altering thing would be along the lines of daring to trust... being willing to take a leap of faith. It seems to me that this is often a pre-requisite for falling in love. In this sense, the 6 of Cups refers back to The Lovers.

Just a comment about the notions of guilt and shame... In my experience, shame is possibly the most corrosive, toxic, soul-destroying experience, with no positives whatsoever. Guilt is a different matter, and something which, where appropriate, is to be encouraged. Guilt says 'I did bad', implying regret and hopefully reparation. Shame says 'I am bad'... and I subscribe to the belief that no one who believes that about themself can be deserving of such condemnation.

That's not funny your joke about no good deed going unpunished. This could be a whole new question for Plato's Cave.

I like your take on this reading - that leap of faith.

And I don't know if guilt can be divorced from shame. I would think they're blood brothers.

Thanks for joining this thread Aoife.