The Prodigal Sun

[dodalisque]

Just an aside - the Dodal Devil

The face on his belly might suggest greed or gluttony, or a desire to swallow us up, as well as being "two-faced", and the extended tongue implies "disrespect". But what are the eyes on the knees? I have never been able to figure that out or heard any ideas about them. Other TdM Devils have faces or eyes on their knees too. Maybe this conversation needs to be moved over to the TdM discussion group. There are lots of interesting ideas showing up about various cards in the TdM in this thread but it would be nice to collect them all in the same place.

[dodalisque]

yes, i understand and agree in general, but would qualify it somewhat. what's wrong with passion? it compels one to action, is a component of compassion, and signifies love. consider the term scintilla or spark used as a metaphor for the soul - if we were too literal or PC even we might argue a spark is fire - chaotic, destructive, the element of Hell. consider, too, ire - from Sanskrit, meaning to "drive on". we see it in the word fire. more, from the PIE root eis, it creates numerous words meaning zeal or passion, notably Greek heiros, from which we get Hierophant. it's a "false friend" with iris - of the eyes, the messenger of the gods, and sign of god's covenant with man.

I was enjoying the punning Green Language associations of the word "pances". Those near homophones that make odd coincidental connections. Diana, you know French. Could anything be done with "ponts" - bridges - or "pentes" - slopes? Do any other possible homophones come to mind. Some are nonsensical but sometimes they open up the original word in bizarre unpredictable ways. This may not have much in common with actual word origins that would satisfy a linguist, but they can make the poetry of the card come alive.

[Diana]

Added Edit: or, using the birth metaphor - being born is a harrowing experience for all involved. there is much wailing and gnashing of teeth. the life the baby is thrust into is one of conflict - the war of opposites to paraphrase Heraclitus. of course, the birth the HP facilitates is not exactly of the earthly plane - rather, she unites the natural and spiritual - yet such a birth can be violently upsetting, foreshadowing the Tower card. Jung, for instance, sees John's ugly and ecstatic vision of a woman giving birth in the book of Revelations as a metaphor for revelation itself: the woman is sophia, with the moon at her feet (cf. RWS HP); in here "darkness" is the masculine son (& son) of consciousness, rising out of the unconscious, metaphor of the soul's journey into the material world. she adds the dark to the light and symbolizes the hierogamy of opposites. like the alchemical wedding, revelation or enlightenment is a union of opposites - here, the conscious and unconscious, or fire and water. in the subconscious is everything that the conscious rejects; the journey at the start of the Major Arcana is one of consciousness; but by excluding the subconscious, a slavery (Devil) and cataclysm is coming (Tower). the birth-mother in Revelations is secreted away in the wilderness, but in a sense it is we who have entered the wilderness. in this way, the Star is something of a mother and child reunion.

I very much agree with what you suggest about the Empress. I feel she is misunderstood, in a Freudian way - idolized in a sense as a round-about way of people idolizing themselves. like if a cadre of muscle-bound martinets revered the Emperor card.

This post deserves a High Place in the tarot literature..

Being born into materiality must indeed by a harrowing experience - chosen perhaps, but no less harrowing. Although, we don't know do we whether the baby in the womb is happy and content. The world of the baby in the womb is a big question mark.

We should speak of the Empress in a thread. Get things sorted out. The usual meanings and interpretation of this card are most times ridiculous. For example : Abundant creativity · Fertility · Fulfillment · Mother figure · Productivity. That's neither here nor there nor anywhere. And the meanings are usually hugely sexist.

[Diana]

I was enjoying the punning Green Language associations of the word "pances". Those near homophones that make odd coincidental connections. Diana, you know French. Could anything be done with "ponts" - bridges - or "pentes" - slopes? Do any other possible homophones come to mind. Some are nonsensical but sometimes they open up the original word in bizarre unpredictable ways. This may not have much in common with actual word origins that would satisfy a linguist, but they can make the poetry of the card come alive.

I enjoyed the Green Language too of "pances".

No, the word "pont" (bridge) would not have anything to do with the Papesse. This is the attribute of the Pope - "pontiff". Although the word "pont" (bridge) has a different etymology I see and this I didn't know. From Old French pont, from Latin pontem, accusative singular of pōns, from Proto-Indo-European *pónteh₁s (“path, road”), from *pent- (“path”). Compare Catalan pont, Italian ponte, Occitan pònt, Portuguese ponte, Romanian punte, Romansch punt, Spanish puente, Welsh pont.

Which would perhaps point to the Pope being a wayshower - or perhaps the way himself.

I can't find any other green language for the Pances. I've thought long and hard. I don't think the "pente" slope fits well here. The only one I can think of is "paon" which is a peacock. Especially the "all seeing Church" of Christianity. The Papesse is sometimes considered to represent the Church.

I don't know how accurate the following is that I'm copying pasting from a website but if it's all true it could certainly have some relevance to the Papesse. It seems to be correct.

In Greco-Roman mythology the Peacock tail has the "eyes" of the stars. In Hinduism, the Peacock is associated with Lakshmi who represents patience, kindness and luck. In Persia the Peacock is seen as a guardian to royalty, and is often seen in engravings upon their thrones. In Christianity the Peacock represents the "all-seeing" church. The Peacock also represents resurrection, renewal and immortality within the spiritual teachings of Christianity. Themes of renewal are also linked to alchemical traditions too, as many schools of thought compare the resurrecting phoenix to the modern-day Peacock.

The Peacock has been linked to Kuan Yin and it is this deity that is supposedly the creator of the beautiful colors of the Peacock’s signature tail feathers. Legend tells us Kuan Yin could have been immortal but stayed because she wished to aid humanity in their spiritual evolution. Kuan Yin taught people, through her own compassionate spirit, to live together as friends. When she decided to go to the heavens she appointed a guardian to keep the earth peaceful. She called a bird, with dull brown feathers, to her. She rubbed her face and brushed her hands down the length of its feathers, which created a kaleidoscope of colors and beautiful eyes on the end of each long feather. The Peacock feathers remind
us that Kuan Yin is compassionately watching over us.

It has also been said that the Peacock is the earthly manifestation of the phoenix. The feathers are talismans to protect the wearer from accidents, poisoning, diseases, and other disasters. For this reason the Peacock feather represents immortality, and can absorb negative energies, protecting those who wear them. Just like the phoenix those who wear the Peacock feather can rise from the ashes.

[chiscotheque]

No, the word "pont" (bridge) would not have anything to do with the Papesse.

i should preface what i'm about to say with the disclaimer that it's essentially gnostic in approach, and that i have been studying both gnosticism and Jung lately so my head is a bit full of it. but as i claimed above, i consider the HP/papess/pances to represent Sophia and the Holy Ghost. if so, she is indeed a bridge: envoy between god & man. in the old testament, sophia is the female unconscious side of yahweh, who is angry, jealous, and unreflective. she is god's consort, his unconscious or shadow, the original anima, co-existent with god; she is also the mother of Yahweh, and responsible for the material realm. as the paraclete, she acts as bridge from the material (from Latin for mother) and the spiritual, the internal path to god. she is also as a bridge to the material for god, since through her god gets to become man again in each human, not just christ. gnostics claim that humans can become christs, and the path to one's own christ is within. "no one comes to the father except through me."

this is quite contrary to what the catholic church claims, and an aspect of why the papaess and the hierophant are opposites in a way. the church derides the HP as a "papess", a fake wanna-be pope, just as the church itself turns its back on the holy spirit. it claims to be the bride of christ, but in reality sophia is. she is the spiritual mother-lover figure, the filius solis et lunae, the mother wisdom aspect of the old testament god and the lover paraclete aspect of the new testament, embodied in earthly terms in the virgin mary and mary magdalene. on the HP card, she is the mother, old testament, Silence aspect of sophia, and we see her again (i argue) in her lover, grace, muse, aspect in the naked and reborn Star card.

the peacock as a symbol for the "universal" catholic church is quite good - all the "eyes" that see nothing. all the male pomp and grandstanding, and the shallow preening. the church is an insult to its self-appointed role of "bride of christ" - the only way it's somewhat true is that all the people they claim to shepherd are the bride of christ - a church of "I's", of psyches wherein the holy spirit may reside - not the outside physical church. it's ironic that paul became such an important character for the structural running of the church - of course, he has been co-opted, and half his letters falsified. but as a man, he had a gnostic experience of awakening and afterwards made a point of NOT going to the other apostles - notably Peter - because he didn't trust their teachings or desire for earthly power. consider the apocryphal passage from Luke 6:4, "man, if indeed thou knowest what thou doest, thou art blessed; but if thou knowest not, thou art cursed and a transgressor of the law." in a gnostic sense, those most lost are those who evade what they know within them by deferring to others outside (ie - the church) - "No one who puts his hand to the plough and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God."

another post elsewhere about the Empress would be good. this post went off the tracks long ago. i think there is something to be said about the way the empress and emperor exist "within" the framing-device as it were of the HP and Hier, as the 2 earthly rulers reflect them in certain ways. i really don't see much connection to the Magician and the HP, personally, outside of a male energy vis-a-vis the HP's female energy. the card i find a twin to the Magician 1 is Strength 11.



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[dodalisque]

Themes of renewal are also linked to alchemical traditions too, as many schools of thought compare the resurrecting phoenix to the modern-day Peacock.

The "cauda pavonis" or "peacock's tail" is supposed to be an advanced stage of the alchemical process, a brilliant burst of colors in the alchemical vessel announcing the imminent arrival of the white and then the red Stone. In appearance I think it would be very like the fire from above in La Maison Dieu. A lightning bolt appears on the RWS Tower card but perhaps it should be a multi-colored feather.

[Diana]

The "cauda pavonis" or "peacock's tail" is supposed to be an advanced stage of the alchemical process, a brilliant burst of colors in the alchemical vessel announcing the imminent arrival of the white and then the red Stone. In appearance I think it would be very like the fire from above in La Maison Dieu. A lightning bolt appears on the RWS Tower card but perhaps it should be a multi-colored feather.

Two stones ? Oh my. I've been searching so long for a reference to two stones - those of the Maison Dieu and those of the Sun. Those that Jodorowsky calls footprints but doesn't back it up with anything. So there's maybe something to explore here. Oh, happy day. And at least there is a reference to the Sun which is after all the origin of this thread.

I've rarely seen a thread going off in so many tangents!

[dodalisque]

No, the word "pont" (bridge) would not have anything to do with the Papesse.

I hate to introduce a word of doubt into this discussion about the majesty of La Popess/Pances/High Priestess, but I have always wondered why Le Bateleur should be such a rogue - out in public like that, standing behind a secular parody of a church altar, pretending to make coins disappear in the same way that Christ pretends to die - fake magic unlike the real magic of God's Creation - and yet he is placed right next to La Popesse. If Le Bateleur suggests a low stage of spiritual development, might not La Popess, weighed down by the massive Bible on her lap, represent someone who ponders the letter of the law but actually lacks the desire for true spiritual adventure. The lines on the book are just meaningless squiggles to her, and she isn't really studying the book at all. She could be daydreaming. The book covers her genitals, repressing energy from the lower chakras that could be used to accelerate her spiritual progress. I guess I'm suggesting that Le Bateleur and La Popess are more of a pair than La Pances and Le Pape. Perhaps La Pances - giving primacy to written ideas about the religious life - mere Bible worship - is taking a wrong route to divinity as much as le Bateleur: he in an over-thrusting masculine way, and she in an overly passive and removed feminine way. I'm bracing myself for a torrent of hate mail about this idea.

[Diana]

i should preface what i'm about to say with the disclaimer that it's essentially gnostic in approach, and that i have been studying both gnosticism and Jung lately so my head is a bit full of it. but as i claimed above, i consider the HP/papess/pances to represent Sophia and the Holy Ghost. if so, she is indeed a bridge: envoy between god & man. in the old testament, sophia is the female unconscious side of yahweh, who is angry, jealous, and unreflective. she is god's consort, his unconscious or shadow, the original anima, co-existent with god; she is also the mother of Yahweh, and responsible for the material realm. as the paraclete, she acts as bridge from the material (from Latin for mother) and the spiritual, the internal path to god. she is also as a bridge to the material for god, since through her god gets to become man again in each human, not just christ. gnostics claim that humans can become christs, and the path to one's own christ is within. "no one comes to the father except through me."

Sounds almost like you're talking of the Christ itself. For the Roman Catholics, does the Holy Ghost represent the Christ ? I've never really understood this three fold nature, this Trinity.

another post elsewhere about the Empress would be good. this post went off the tracks long ago. i think there is something to be said about the way the empress and emperor exist "within" the framing-device as it were of the HP and Hier, as the 2 earthly rulers reflect them in certain ways. i really don't see much connection to the Magician and the HP, personally, outside of a male energy vis-a-vis the HP's female energy. the card i find a twin to the Magician 1 is Strength 11.

Yes, Magician is paired with Strength 11. No doubt. There are a number of clues that point to this.

[Diana]

I hate to introduce a word of doubt into this discussion about the majesty of La Popess/Pances/High Priestess, but I have always wondered why Le Bateleur should be such a rogue - out in public like that, standing behind a secular parody of a church altar, pretending to make coins disappear in the same way that Christ pretends to die - fake magic unlike the real magic of God's Creation - and yet he is placed right next to La Popesse. If Le Bateleur suggests a low stage of spiritual development, might not La Popess, weighed down by the massive Bible on her lap, represent someone who ponders the letter of the law but actually lacks the desire for true spiritual adventure. The lines on the book are just meaningless squiggles to her, and she isn't really studying the book at all. She could be daydreaming. The book covers her genitals, repressing energy from the lower chakras that could be used to accelerate her spiritual progress. I guess I'm suggesting that Le Bateleur and La Popess are more of a pair than La Pances and Le Pape. Perhaps La Pances - giving primacy to written ideas about the religious life - mere Bible worship - is taking a wrong route to divinity as much as le Bateleur: he in an over-thrusting masculine way, and she in an overly passive and removed feminine way. I'm bracing myself for a torrent of hate mail about this idea.

Blasphemy indeed. You're lucky the Inquisition is over. But you're right about Le Bateleur - he's not very highly evolved. But has all the potential which is nice for him.

Would the book not be the one mentioned in Revelation, " I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed with seven seals."

According to wiki, "only Jesus Christ is proven worthy to open the scroll which contains God's secret plan for the coming of his kingdom on earth". I don't know why they say this. So maybe the Papesse does represent the Christ - maybe even Jesus ??? but that's taking it a bit far - I'll stick with the Christ so as not to start getting into too much science fiction. One must separate the Jesus from the Christ I would think.

P.S. Where did the "belle epoque" sub title come from ????

[chiscotheque]

I hate to introduce a word of doubt into this discussion about the majesty of La Popess/Pances/High Priestess, but I have always wondered why Le Bateleur should be such a rogue - out in public like that, standing behind a secular parody of a church altar, pretending to make coins disappear in the same way that Christ pretends to die - fake magic unlike the real magic of God's Creation - and yet he is placed right next to La Popesse. If Le Bateleur suggests a low stage of spiritual development, might not La Popess, weighed down by the massive Bible on her lap, represent someone who ponders the letter of the law but actually lacks the desire for true spiritual adventure. The lines on the book are just meaningless squiggles to her, and she isn't really studying the book at all. She could be daydreaming. The book covers her genitals, repressing energy from the lower chakras that could be used to accelerate her spiritual progress. I guess I'm suggesting that Le Bateleur and La Popess are more of a pair than La Pances and Le Pape. Perhaps La Pances - giving primacy to written ideas about the religious life - mere Bible worship - is taking a wrong route to divinity as much as le Bateleur: he in an over-thrusting masculine way, and she in an overly passive and removed feminine way. I'm bracing myself for a torrent of hate mail about this idea.

sure, it could be. whats more, the holy spirit may just be a big pile of shit.
as a person in part raised by nuns, i can certainly understand the popesse representing a persnickety, prudish, judgmental, repressed and repressive school-marm. but why is she called the popesse? there is no such thing. in the case you argue for she should just be called the pious, the mother superior, the abbess, the spinster, the old maid, or the librarian. we have been moving between the TdM and the RWS, but surely the latter thought she was more than you suggest - the moon at her feet, the pomegranates on the veil, the pillars of Solomon's temple which housed the ark of the covenant. this "old maid" IS the covenant. she is not at the beginning of the tarot's arc because she is insignificant - quite the reverse. like the soul, she is there from the beginning; like her consort the Logos, she existed with god from the beginning. to deem the popesse simply a prig in drag is akin to thinking the chariot is some kind of old-fangled jalopy and the hanged man is a bungled auto-asphyxiation.


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[dodalisque]

Two stones ? Oh my. I've been searching so long for a reference to two stones - those of the Maison Dieu and those of the Sun.

Oh, I hadn't realised what I was saying. The two stones. But I have a hard time linking these two insignificant little rocks, if that's what they are, with the goal of the Great Opus. However, it is stated frequently in alchemical literature that the "prima materia", the mysterious secret substance we need to acquire in order to begin the process, is insignificant and is handled and ignored every day by ordinary people who do not appreciate how precious it is. Just like those little bits of rubble on the ground. Alchemists are forbidden to name the identity of the prima materia but I suppose that is because it is not a thing at all but a state of consciousness - our current, untransformed state of consciousness. In ancient literature philosophers often represented God by a white cube, a cubic stone - an image of irreducible solidity instead of being wispy and metaphysical and invisible - which I usually associate with the kabbalistic Cube of Space.

The fact that stones show up on the ground on La Maison Dieu and The Sun might be connected to the fact that both cards feature man-made constructions with shaped (?) stones. The little rocks could not find a place in the grand structure. They are independent outsiders or eccentric rejects from society. Strange that the vertical Tower itself is always drawn as a 2 dimensional rectangular shape, flat on the page, whereas the low wall on the Sun has thickness. I have no idea what that might signify. When one of the two men on La Maison Dieu falls out of the Tower - he is the one who is partly obscured - perhaps he is emerging from 2 dimensional reality into a world of 3 dimensions. Why does he seem to be picking a flower? And those windows in the Tower? And no door? Weird. The whole card is strange. At first glance we think of the Tower of Babel, but none of the details seem to fit that story.

[dodalisque]

another post elsewhere about the Empress would be good. this post went off the tracks long ago. i think there is something to be said about the way the empress and emperor exist "within" the framing-device as it were of the HP and Hier, as the 2 earthly rulers reflect them in certain ways. i really don't see much connection to the Magician and the HP, personally, outside of a male energy vis-a-vis the HP's female energy. the card i find a twin to the Magician 1 is Strength 11.

Yes, Magician is paired with Strength 11. No doubt. There are a number of clues that point to this.

But the entire major arcana is, debatably, an orderly numbered sequence suggesting a spiritual progression from the secular Le Bateleur to its metaphysical culmination on the World card. There are those theories that link the order of the sequence to Renaissance carnivals based on the very famous and widely known Petrarch poem (I Trionfi, from about 1360) describing a procession of symbolic figures of increasing power and grandeur. That would put La Popesse very "low on the totem pole". The numerical proximity of cards I and II seems a more powerful connection than links with other cards within the sequence. I think perhaps the RWS interpretation of the La Popess/High Priestess is as misjudged as its glamorisation of Le Bateleur/The Magician. The RWS set out to create a tool for ritual magic, but many of the TdM originals do not seem to have much in common with the RWS re-interpretation.

The problem I have with giving La Popesse high status is that she is often granted identification with the world of the mystical wisdom of the unconscious - as in fact she does explicitly in the RWS - but, if that is the case, why do we need to wait until we get to the World card? All we would need to do to achieve God-realisation is to adopt the consciousness of La Popess. I don't know - I get so exhausted sometimes apologising for being a man these days, especially in the tarot world where the poor Emperor and Pope usually get bad press, that maybe I like to remind myself sometimes that occasionally women can be less than saints too. Isn't she a weak figure, like Le Bateleur, but both with the potential for improvement? But we all have our own idea of the story told by the major arcana, and the cards seem to be quite capable of sustaining all of them.

[dodalisque]

this "old maid" IS the covenant. she is not at the beginning of the tarot's arc because she is insignificant - quite the reverse. like the soul, she is there from the beginning; like her consort the Logos, she existed with god from the beginning.

Fair enough. The acorn IS the oak. It's the same connection in alchemy between the Prima Materia and the Philosopher's Stone. When you reach the goal you realise it was already within you the whole time.

[chiscotheque]

I get so exhausted sometimes apologising for being a man these days, especially in the tarot world where the poor Emperor and Pope usually get bad press, that maybe I like to remind myself sometimes that occasionally women can be less than saints too. Isn't she a weak figure, like Le Bateleur, but both with the potential for improvement? But we all have our own idea of the story told by the major arcana, and the cards seem to be quite capable of sustaining all of them.

yes, it is capable of sustaining them all, and that in fact is what is happening - just as when i do a reading about philosophy, it is not a philosophical truth but rather my own philosophical dialogue. similarly, what we have here is your interpretation of the popesse vis-a-vis mine (or Diana's, etc.). i guess we could consider the popess to just represent the worst things about women; by that line of thinking, the magician would represent the worst aspects of men and the empress and emperor would be the best things about women and men respectively. yet what about the hierophant - does he just represent men, or something more? is the tarot actually in a specific order that simply starts at the bottom and moves up? and while we're at it - nobody is asking you to apologise for being a man, Dodalisque, except perhaps me (it's that guilt by association Diana speaks of in another post).

i think you nailed it on the head when you mention your own frustration since your idea of the popess reflects your own particular discomfort exactly. i note you are willing to accept the gracious aspects of the Star since she's naked and alluring whereas you associate the popess with some of the worst aspects of your mother. also you defend the hierophant because you liken him to your own guru, but within the western tarot tradition he is the pope - head of a religion you have often claimed to dislike and resent; further, by the pope's lights, your guru would be in effect the popess - a faker, a weak and false prophet.

a question remains, because the tarot is capable of sustaining all of them, does that mean all are equally valid? and are not some sustained stories actually detrimental?

[dodalisque]

a question remains, because the tarot is capable of sustaining all of them, does that mean all are equally valid? and are not some sustained stories actually detrimental?

No, I was wrong to say the tarot is capable of sustaining all our interpretations. I should have said: all of them except yours! These are not exclusively my ideas, you know. In fact I'm not sure I have an original idea in my head. You might even be in the minority on this one. I'm not sure, I'd have to check the figures. But the deck can't have been completely solved just yet. You still haven't convinced me we are actually disagreeing with each other about very much.

[chiscotheque]

No, I was wrong to say the tarot is capable of sustaining all our interpretations. I should have said: all of them except yours!

ha ha - at least you admit you were wrong. i accept that my opinions may be unpopular or even just simply my own. for one thing, it matters greatly if we're talking about the papess of the TdM or the HP of the RWS, let alone any other deck. the papess is probably the least understood or agreed upon card in the deck. its even been represented by other characters, such as the spanish captain from the comedia dell'arte (and Armado in LLL) and Junor/Hera. in a way, you are of the spanish captain school and i am of the Hera school. it's so funny how we can be diametrically opposed and still you insist we are actually in accord - talk about an alchemical marriage.


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[Diana]

The Prodigal Sun seems to have a got a bit lost on his way back to his father's house. This is the weirdest thread I've ever participated in on a tarot forum. But fascinating. Seems to have sown some seeds in good ground. There was no systematic method but still, I think they'll grow as they were probably planted in the right season.

[Diana]

And those windows in the Tower? And no door? Weird. The whole card is strange. At first glance we think of the Tower of Babel, but none of the details seem to fit that story.

You're a devil aren't you, taking this thread in more and more directions ! Why don't you ask your questions in the Tarot of Marseilles forum ?

That lack of a door. It's one of the most beautiful and intriguing details in the TdM. There is a historical deck, maybe two, where it appears. Camoin included it in his deck. It was the second thing I noticed that I groaned about. Eggs AND a door ? For heaven's sake, I told myself - where on earth is the world going ? It definitely shouldn't have a door.

I have a lot to say about that door. But I won't here.

[dodalisque]

No, I was wrong to say the tarot is capable of sustaining all our interpretations. I should have said: all of them except yours!

ha ha - at least you admit you were wrong.

Perhaps "wrong" was the wrong word. Or the imperfectly precise word. I would never admit I was actually wrong but, admirably, I am flexible enough to occasionally make infinitesimal modifications to my position. You should try it sometime. Jeez, I feel like a poor simple shepherd who has wandered into Plato's Cave to take refuge from the storm, only to be immediately set upon by a family of bears. The Popess/High Priestess has some stout defenders. I must say, I don't enjoy "thinking" very much. I tend to give primacy to feeling. It must be my feminine side.

Everyone agrees with each other all the time. Human consciousness is a unified single entity, or Jung's "collective unconscious" doesn't mean anything. The arguments are only over terminology.

[dodalisque]

You're a devil aren't you, taking this thread in more and more directions ! Why don't you ask your questions in the Tarot of Marseilles forum ?

Excellent idea. I forget how the original question in this section of the site shifted to a discussion about the TdM. By lazily carrying on the conversation here, I think I was worried that chiscotheque, who is quite new to the TdM, might not be able to find us if we moved out of Plato's Cave. I'm looking forward so much to hearing more of your ideas about the TdM. See you there.

[Diana]

Perhaps "wrong" was the wrong word. Or the imperfectly precise word. I would never admit I was actually wrong but, admirably, I am flexible enough to occasionally make infinitesimal modifications to my position. You should try it sometime. Jeez, I feel like a poor simple shepherd who has wandered into Plato's Cave to take refuge from the storm, only to be immediately set upon by a family of bears.

There are no bears in the Tarot of Marseilles. But there must be a number of bears in Shakespeare's Tarot I would assume. You know, if ever someone wants to make me burst out laughing it would be to say out of the blue "exit, pursued by a bear". I think this is one of the funniest things I've ever heard in the world and I never tire of it. I'm laughing out loud while I write this. It's even better than your time traveller joke which still makes me chortle each time I think of it.

Everyone agrees with each other all the time. Human consciousness is a unified single entity, or Jung's "collective unconscious" doesn't mean anything. The arguments are only over terminology.

Is it only terminology ? Wouldn't it be also due at times to different concepts ? What's the boundary between those two ?

[Diana]

Excellent idea. I forget how the original question in this section of the site shifted to a discussion about the TdM. By lazily carrying on the conversation here, I think I was worried that chiscotheque, who is quite new to the TdM, might not be able to find us if we moved out of Plato's Cave. I'm looking forward so much to hearing more of your ideas about the TdM. See you there.

I'm not an expert on Plato's Cave, but isn't the whole point of it to cliimb out and get into the Sun light ? And now we've come full circle again. Back to the Prodigal Sun. Maybe we're stuck on the Wheel of Fortune.

[dodalisque]

Is it only terminology ? Wouldn't it be also due at times to different concepts ? What's the boundary between those two ?

Terminology, concepts...don't they mean the same thing? No, I'm joking. Or maybe not. Language is the problem. Shakespeare says somewhere that an idea can be turned inside-out as easily as a glove. And his father apparently was a glove-maker, so he should know. But, bite my tongue, I'm foolishly talking about the guy from Stratford. We all know that the actual author of the plays was Edward de Vere the 17th Earl of Oxford.

[chiscotheque]

Everyone agrees with each other all the time. Human consciousness is a unified single entity, or Jung's "collective unconscious" doesn't mean anything. The arguments are only over terminology.

at the threat of calling you wrong yet again, i'll just suggest you are perfectly imprecise. or, to paraphrase Hamlet: conception is a blessing, but not as your thoughter may conceive. Jung's collective unconscious may indeed mean nothing, but to say because of it we all agree with each other is akin to saying, since we are all made up of atoms, we are all the same person at core. further, the more conscious we become - or individuated to use Jungle jive - the more individual and less like the collective we become.


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