Cult of Tarot Forum

I always carry a deck with me, and yesterday I had to wait for someone in a cafe... so I decided to play a game I really like with my cards. The pocket Tabula Mundi by the way, one of the best decks ever created imo.

I wanted to have more insight into the character and motivations of some central Game of Thrones characters (from the HBO show, not the books). Three cards for each, the central card is the central message, the flanking cards give additional information or show exterior influences or changes.

The pictures are horrible but still I want to share how it all worked out. I had fun!

I started with Daenerys.
Lust - 7 of Wands - 8 of Disks

Now look at this - I see eggs, I see a dragon, I see a powerful queen driven by passion and fire. The central card, 7/Wands, is related to Lust. It's a card of struggle - tiger and dragon fight (the book gives a lot of martial arts background to that but I see the dragon and the battle motif and it's enough for me!). Daenerys' main direction in life, as we see increasingly through the show, is war and battle. She doesn't think that all her battles have been fought. Yes, she has the side of the loving woman, coming into her own and leading others through charisma and care, the way Lust does. Lust who liberated herself and now liberates others. She also has the dragon mother side, the prudent care, but in important moments, she risks too much - the 7/W simply override the 8/D's advice.

Together, these three cards give me a pretty precise picture of her motivations and the inner core of her character. How different would her fate have been if Lust had been the central card....

Now let's see Jon Snow.
Five of Wands - Ten of Wands - Three of Wands

Wow, so many Wands, I'm surprised and would have expected at least one Water or Earth card, something to represent Ice, not only Fire.

The central card is one of the tough Saturn cards - we're in Malkuth, Saturn presses from above, the free spirit of Sagittarius can't do much, it's the face of Jon Snow in prison when he did his duty but broke his own heart. This card tells us that he won't find happiness in this life anymore, no matter how much we'd want him to. That's why he doesn't smile when he sees Tormund or rides out into the woods. Making a new start, finding happiness, that's not for him, just as it wasn't for Frodo. The harsh message of the 10/W will stay with him.

The 5/W is his warrior side, and it's related to Lust - one of the things that connect him to Daenerys. He's not happy to fight but he does it well. Wow, poor Jon Snow, so much Saturn for him. Saturn is ice - and his two heritages don't mix well.

Only in the Three of Wands do I see some semblance of happiness. This side is for me his connection to Ned whom he emulates. Even after he knows his biological parentage, he still sees Ned as his father. Virtue, the name of the card, is his ideal, he wants to do the right thing, he can't lie, he can't make intrigues. He forgives, he gives new chances.

If this card was in the middle for Jon Snow, he'd be able to balance out the aggression and belligerence of his other cards. He'd be able to be a good Emperor (cardinal sign Aries - Emperor), eh, king in the North or even King of all the kingdoms. But the hardship of Saturn, the revenge of time, spoilt it all for him. It's a tragedy, at least the way these cards show it.

What about Sansa?
I took two cards instead of one and decided that's what Sansa needs, and she gets it.

[oh telephone, I'll continue later, but will send it, I'm afraid of another blackout!!!]

Joan Marie wrote: ↑04 Jun 2019, 15:28 If you quote some text from the person you want to tag, they will see a notification. That's about the closest thing we have.

katrinka wrote: ↑04 Jun 2019, 22:12 Thank you!
I don't always check the quoted text notifications right away if I haven't been on much in a few days and there's a lot of them. I imagine a lot of others are similar. I quote people a lot, but it's just so everybody can see what I'm responding to, not to get anyone's attention. Tagging puts a little more priority on a notification.

This is a situation where tagging people might be helpful. @Dodalisque *loves* stuff like this, but he's only on about once a week these days, it seems, so he may well miss it. Instead of a tag, I'll have to quote the time he told me

dodalisque wrote: ↑31 May 2019, 22:13 I think your reading is 100% accurate

Really fun idea Nemia!:) I was just saying to someone the other day I think there are soooo many potential uses for Tarot, and this is just another one! Thanks for sharing this:)

Couldn't finish it yesterday but, YES, it's one of the most fun things to do with tarot cards, fictive readings. I've read for Scarlett O'Hara a number of times and her relationships with other women - Melanie, her sisters, Maybelle Merriweather... that was interesting!!!

I don't feel comfortable to read for historical figures or absent people, it seems intrusive. But I don't think Sansa or Scarlett mind and I was amazed when I saw the cards for Daenerys! dragons and eggs!

(Thanks CB, the Tagging debate did draw my attention to this "Fictive" topic.) Reading for fictive or historical characters seems at first glance to be a pointless occupation for an oracle. We already know how the story turns out, so why would we try to tell the future for one of the characters? There is, of course, no substitute for a traditional reading with a living breathing client, but this is a wonderful way of improving one's reading skills. I think it's valuable because it encourages us to "make" the cards fit. That opens up elements in the cards that we tend to habitually ignore in our readings for others. I find I become too reliant after a while on a certain narrow range of favourite meanings for the cards.

The focus in "fictive" readings is more on the motivations of characters from fiction or history rather than what the future holds: what problems did they face in that moment? what options were available to them? I should also point out that from the viewpoint of the fictive character asking the question, he/she is as ignorant of his/her future as any living breathing client that comes to us for advice. This approach often gives surprising psychological insights into what we once thought were familiar stories. Folk tales and fairy tales are especially good for this since they often dramatize very common emotional crises.

Another advantage of this form of reading is that we are not having to expose our personal lives in a public online forum in our monthly search for a situation from our own lives worthy of a question for the tarot. It's a very intimate vulnerable experience being a client. Though of course if we really need a reading then that option is always open. My own life just isn't as interesting as Hamlet's, and after about half-a dozen readings or so I feel that all my own neuroses have been pretty well exhausted.

One disadvantage, I suppose, is that the person asking the question might need to provide some background information about the book or TV show or historical moment or whatever being dealt with. No problem about reading for historical characters. They are not like in a 3rd person reading, which some object to on ethical grounds. The historical person IS the client, not a 3rd person. I seem to remember when I was first learning tarot that Mary Greer's books recommended drawing a card in the morning and then at the end of the day trying to see how the card "predicted" the day just gone. That seems to me essentially identical to reading for characters from fiction and history. We all get to practise our skills and no-one gets hurt.

Could it be the tarot in fictional readings like this got, could be picking up the creator intent, the writers intent , the way the actors saw their character, and how the masses generally saw the character, to mske up for the lack of actual reading energy. (Serious need for tarot help as provided by the universe,).
Til now i been againts fictional reading for i saw it was wasting spiritual energy , like when some books advocate making up readings.
Course back then there was hardly any jnternet, or clients, so you had to resort for reading for same people, doing readings on yourself, doing readings on fictional characters, or real life event. Now you just have to do offer a reading up on fb group and get lots of replies.
Then again when i do wisdom reading/channeling with the tarot.. it could be is like reading for fictional characters.. just getting some fictional wisdom from a fictional angel, or imaginary jesus.
So i am no longer against fictional resdings.

Nemia wrote: ↑05 Jun 2019, 12:23 YES, it's one of the most fun things to do with tarot cards, fictive readings.

In practice I find that the actual sensation of doing one of these readings is not very different from a regular reading. A story starts to emerge from the cards that is subtly different from how the character understands her/his role in her own story. This is essentially true of a regular client who comes to us. The reading reframes their life experience and gives them a larger perspective of the options open to them.

IMPORTANT: I find that this type of reading works best when we imagine that the character from fiction or history is coming to us, the tarot reader, as a CLIENT. The challenge is to imagine we are doing an actual reading for this character at a specific moment in time. She/he is facing a difficult moment in her/his life and is coming to a tarot reader for advice on how to proceed. e.g. Should I, Joan of Arc, an 18 year old girl, accept the role of military leader of France to fight the English? This also gives us practice in formulating questions and choosing spreads, which is an important tarot skill.

Just as in a regular reading, the character approaching us with a question should give the reader enough background information from the story in which she finds herself to enable the reader to make sensible responses. Individual characters do not know what the other characters in the story are experiencing any more than a regular client knows for certain what other people in her/his life are feeling. Our godlike knowledge of the whole story and how it turns out is not very different from our claim as tarot readers to have an intuitive understanding of "what the future holds".

This style of reading is a lot simpler and more fun than it sounds from an abstract description. It also teaches the vital tarot skill of staying true to the exact question asked. This is something I need to improve in my own readings. When I start to be convinced I have a good idea about what's happening, I tend to bend the reading of individual cards to fit my interpretation rather than staying true to the cards and letting them determine my interpretation. Some difficult cards will inevitably appear that seem to move counter to the fictional story as we know it. This is when it starts to get really interesting because it means new material is being introduced into our and the character's understanding of their situation.

Small note: in an earlier message above, when I was talking about folk tales and fairy tales and how well-suited they are to fictive readings, I used the word "common" to describe the emotional and spiritual challenges they explore, but of course the word I should have chosen was "archetypal".

Did you see that I did a Game of Thrones reading just before the final episode?

viewtopic.php?f=78&t=1421

CB, congratulations on your magnificent Lenormand triumph in predicting the conclusion to Game of Thrones. A fictive reading for Bran using the tarot might have helped him resolve his obsessive subconscious need for power, but it probably wouldn't have given us a clue about him coming out on top. I wonder if modern tarot will ever cast off the shackles of psychology and go back to balls-to-the-wall fortune-telling. I guess a hankering after the bad old days is why Lenormand is so popular.

common, archetypal - a matter of degrees, no?
Dodalisque, since the tarot itself is archetypal, should a tarot pull for a fairy tale or other fictional scenario run contrary to what we know happened, what would it suggest? that the pull was flawed, that the reader was mistaken, or that the tale was unconventional to begin with? probably none of the above, exactly. the question is moot.
personally, i think the idea is a great one; very rewarding. i say that in part as a tarot deck creator, based on characters and historical events where the outcome is known. it's one of the things i come across, leverage, and learn from. if i didn't know any better i'd liken the idea to writing up a budget after the money's been spent. and in some ways, admittedly, it is - but that's in part exactly where the learning comes in - making the mind lithe, literally breaking it out of a priori ideas. the process is also a little like being a defense lawyer, trying to make sense of your client's story. sometimes you know the guy's innocent, but all the facts stack up against him. sometimes you think you know he's innocent and he admits to you his guilt. and sometimes you're shown your own bias.
so, that said, when and where and how do we start making these fictional readings nonfiction?

Hahaaha!
What an absolutely BRILLIANT idea to do with a TV Series.
Inspirational!

AeonHorus wrote: ↑10 Feb 2020, 16:23 Hahaaha!
What an absolutely BRILLIANT idea to do with a TV Series.
Inspirational!

We've been doing this in the monthly Lenormand circle and it actually seems to work quite well. I was surprised.

Charlie Brown wrote: ↑10 Feb 2020, 16:36

AeonHorus wrote: ↑10 Feb 2020, 16:23 Hahaaha!
What an absolutely BRILLIANT idea to do with a TV Series.
Inspirational!

We've been doing this in the monthly Lenormand circle and it actually seems to work quite well. I was surprised.

We've got one starting up right now and would love to have you join us. Please have a look here: https://www.cultoftarotforum.com/viewt ... 251&t=2343

There is also a link there to see previous circles we've done. It's been a lot of fun really. And some very strange and surprising results.

Joan Marie wrote: ↑10 Feb 2020, 18:36

Charlie Brown wrote: ↑10 Feb 2020, 16:36

AeonHorus wrote: ↑10 Feb 2020, 16:23 Hahaaha!
What an absolutely BRILLIANT idea to do with a TV Series.
Inspirational!

We've been doing this in the monthly Lenormand circle and it actually seems to work quite well. I was surprised.

We've got one starting up right now and would love to have you join us. Please have a look here: https://www.cultoftarotforum.com/viewt ... 251&t=2343

There is also a link there to see previous circles we've done. It's been a lot of fun really. And some very strange and surprising results.

I'll have a look now Joan thank you

I wanted to practice reading a tableau, and since school let out early today in anticipation of the impending Midwestern snowstorm, I laid one out.


The querent is a young man coming to terms with his mother’s remarriage. He is suffering from strange experiences that he fears might be
hallucinatory, and he is understandably concerned about his mental health. He is seeking clarity about his situation and is looking for a way forward.

Reading the corners outlines the situation for us quite simply: A conflict involving three people, including his mother and the man who is not his father, is leading to a destabilization of the household (III Epées, Reyne and Cavalier of Epées, IIII Coupes). Very generally, the most repeated numbers are V and VI, suggesting that themes of conflict, choice, and decision-making are important here. Almost one-third of the cards are Batons, which speak to the themes of warring passions and impulses. We see all of the Queens and half of the Knights, but no Kings. When we consider the subject’s recently deceased father, this absence is salient.

The young man is signified by the Cavalier of Batons, reflecting his impulsive, romantic nature. In Jodo’s cyclical view of the suits, the Knights venture from one suit to the next; in the case of Batons, towards that of Swords, which the young man finds to reflect his recently-interrupted stint at university. Dealing with family affairs has supplanted his academic pursuits, but part of him longs to return to that world. Looking at the significator’s cross, we see his mother hanging over his head. Her remarriage makes him feel as if by replacing his father, she has also replaced him. This fear is echoed by the maternal hand over her belly: should she have a child with her new husband, he will be replaced indeed. Below him is the VII Batons: he is like the rod in the center, entangled by competing motivations and emotions, rendered motionless by indecision. HIs head is turned away from the stable emotional landscape promised by the VIII of Coupes because he can’t help but fixate on the series of disturbing phantasms that have lately come to obsess him. Note that Le Diable holds his strange wand, mirroring that in the Cavalier’s hand. This mirroring suggests the young man’s departed father might be at the center of this mental unrest.

If we consider the knighting cards of the significator, we have the VIIII Batons, Temperance, and the Reyne de Coupes. The VIIII of Batons suggests that his sense of immobility may be near the tipping point to action. The queen of cups might speak of another woman in the drama, perhaps the young man’s on-again-off-again love interest. This is interesting for two reasons: the Queen of Cups is strongly associated with water, an influence towards which the young woman is also strongly drawn. Also, see how she stares at the sealed chalice. She may think she knows what lies within, but can she ever be sure? Temperance–the central card of the tableau, and thus the pivot of the situation–speaks of the struggle of balance. Logic and emotion, love and hate, reality and illusion: all of these struggles are entangling the subjects of the drama at hand.

The cards that mirror the significator are the V Coupes, the As de Batons, and the VIII Batons. Graphically, the V Coupes in this deck suggests a triad at the bottom from which sprouts a plant that replaces the three cups with only two: from the family triad, after the remarriage there is no longer a place for the querent. Of course, fives are also about union and disunion, and this underscores this sense of rejection. The emotional fallout of this situation has fueled the spark of discontent (As de Batons) into a unified resolve to do something about it (VIII de Batons).

But what? If we read the knighting cards of the VIII de Batons, we see two possible approaches: the path of Temperance or the path of Le Bataleur. Let’s consider both.

Temperance has her back to L’Imperatrice: she is choosing to ignore family and her mother and focuses instead upon the VII Deniers, upon establishing her own way in the world. The V Batons below her suggest marshaling her desires, closing her unbridling passions in a fist of resolve. Above her is the VI Epées. The swords of mind here become an enclosure that protects and nurtures the flower in their middle, representing a return to the cloistered halls of the University, where his sensitivity was turned towards the rigors of academia. Perhaps this would be the more balanced course?

The Bataleur is an itinerant mountebank. If Temperance is the path of taking the high road, of getting out while the getting is good, the Bataleur is about doubling down and fighting dirty. The Bataleur is about putting on a show, but sometimes you need to make sure you know where your wallet is while you’re watching his tricks. The knighting cards of le Bataleur are again the As de Batons and the VIII Batons, as well as the VII Deniers and l’Imperatrice. Above the As and the VIII suggested an initial impulse and a considered resolution to act; perhaps here they are similarly linked, a simple reproduction of a complex state of affairs, perhaps involving the mother (Imperatrice) turning her back while someone tries to pull a fast one (VII Deniers, which is in turn knighted by the Cavalier d’Epées, the stepfather). Hmmm. Also something about pouring going on here, with Temperance in the middle. I wonder if the young man knows anyone like the Bataleur that could help him to put on this show.

There are two ramps that are worth reading here: going up to the young man, and going up to the Devil. Just quick reading from the bottom up: from the stable household of the X Deniers, a conflict caused by destructive desires (see the clipped buds and leaves in the card) has led his mother to turn away from what she should have cherished (l’Imperatrice is turned away from her shield), putting the young man in the situation he is in. If we continue to read le Diable as the departed father, we read up that a trick, the depravity of which is hidden from his wife, has caused the tangled circumstances which led to his situation (e.g. being dead).

I could go on, but I should just point out that in tableaux, the horizontal matrix is time, the vertical is that of success, or position in the completion of a situation. As we can see, the querent is nearly at the top of his game. Things are going to get sorted. Alas, he is also near the end of his time; all the way at the edge of the tableau, and the rest is silence.

Client, BW, a young, wealthy man in his ealy 20s: "Since my parents were gunned down in Crime Alley when I was ten, I have felt adrift in the world. My inability to save them has left me tormented by my own sense of powerlessness against that moment of senseless violence. What should I do?"

Reader: "Hmmm. The cards say that you should focus your sense of isolation and orphanhood into a finely-sharpened point and plunge straight into the things that make you suffer so, and work towards an ideal of justice in the world—something about becoming the sword of Justice. Hve you thought about, I dunno, becoming a lawyer or something?