Cult of Tarot Forum

I would like to know the relationship between the two. Tarot and Kabbalah.
And does Kabbalah assist your Tarot readings? How and Why? Or How not? Why not?

The Thoth and RWS (and some other decks) have card meanings that were built on hermetic Qabalah, along with other correspondences. The Golden Dawn Society wanted to assign the 22 paths on the Tree of Life to the 22 majors in the TdM, plus the 10 sephiroth to the minors Ace - 10. The GDS weren't the only ones to do that, but they influenced Waite and Crowley so subsequently their decks.

When I started looking at the Thoth, I wanted to know more about what went into those card meanings. In the process I became fascinated with the ideas, including Unity/Divinity (Aces) and the world around me (10s and Princesses/Pages), and the pointer toward the two not being separate in the way that it seems from my limited perspective. It informs my readings, since I read with decks whose art was strongly influenced by it. (I would even say that when someone reads the Thoth with no knowledge of hermetic Qabalah, readings would still be influenced by it to some extent because it's in the art, and because the Tree of Life is the reason why the Thoth's 5s are challenging, 6s balanced, etc.)

If you read with the TdM you likely will not be making connections to hermetic Qabalah. I mean, there are no police, and no one stopped the GDS and others from doing it. But generally speaking, most who read with the TdM very much prefer it in its original state.

Great post, thank you.

What about some difference in RWS and Thoth cards? For example, 7 of Pentacles / Disks? RWS 7 of Pentacles is not exactly 100% positive it feels, but 7 of Disks of Thoth? It is named as "FAILURE" with dark and depressing images of negative energy?

newoldians wrote: ↑19 Feb 2020, 08:36 I would like to know the relationship between the two. Tarot and Kabbalah.
And does Kabbalah assist your Tarot readings? How and Why? Or How not? Why not?

For what it is worth I have this from a rabbinical scholar: the hermetic cabalah has little to do, if anything, with the authentic Hebraic Kabalah. It is an aberration.

I did some of my own research, take it for what you will. But I have a Master's degree in theology from a major Catholic university. This idea I am about to share was strongly attested to as valid history. A priest, who sought to convert the Jews created a "false" cabalah based upon the Judaic "corrupt" sources that he had. This imaginative creation had no basis in reality, except as a tool to invite, even strong arm, conversions. The priest's name was Raymond Lull. He is the root of all hermetic cabalah...all paths, e.g., Pico della Mirandola, Balthasar Walther, Athanasius Kircher, etc are all sprouts of the same root.

The Franciscan Ramon Llull (ca. 1232-1316) was "the first Christian to acknowledge and appreciate kabbalah as a tool of conversion", although he was "not a Kabbalist, nor was he versed in any particular Kabbalistic approach". Not interested in the possibilities of scholarly Jewish influence, which began later in the Renaissance, his reading of new interpretations of Kabbalah was solely for the sake of theological debate with religious Jews; i.e., missionizing. -- Don Karr: "The Study of Christian Cabala in English"

I have a very close friend who is a Jew and a master tarotist. I trust him when he says that his extensive study of hermetic cabalah (which has direct roots to Lull's works) is a false interpretation of Judaic thought and spirituality and is bankrupt.

I know that any of us are free to apply a system to the tarot. "To each her/his own." I simply, based upon my own research and the scholarly research and opinions of others I trust, have chosen to never use it in tarot. So far, excluding it, has never made my readings any less accurate, applicable and effective.

For what it's worth, imPpo, respectfully,
Belenus

newoldians wrote: ↑21 Feb 2020, 10:00 Great post, thank you.

What about some difference in RWS and Thoth cards? For example, 7 of Pentacles / Disks? RWS 7 of Pentacles is not exactly 100% positive it feels, but 7 of Disks of Thoth? It is named as "FAILURE" with dark and depressing images of negative energy?

Both Waite and Crowley were doing their own interpretation of a card the GDS called "Success Unfulfilled". With it being a 7 (Netzach) and the astrological correspondences (heavy Saturn ruling a decan of earthy Taurus) there's a sense of a bit of a standstill. The RWS card is generally read by people as reflecting and considering. There's a sense in the art of things happening slowly. (You can read Waite's own words in his Pictorial Key where he says it's often about money.) Crowley... the thing about him, I think, is that he is not a fan of being passive in most cases. And he sees this same combination of correspondences in the 7 of Disks as passivity rather than pausing to reflect. Being stuck and needing to get past that. (You can read what he has to say in his Book of Thoth.) Another example where they see something different is the 6 of Swords. In that case, the Thoth is more positive than the RWS, I think. (There's also the fact that the artists took two different approaches, so the decks don't look a lot alike.)

If you decide hermetic Qabalah is something you want to know more about, and you have more questions about where the RWS and Thoth diverge, you might be interested in Robert Wang's The Qabalistic Tarot. He talks about the RWS and the Thoth for each card and where they differ or overlap.

Tarot and Kabbalah, yes, I also read somewhere some people don't see any connection between them.

But the Waite and Crowley both have seem to tried to relate the two, and if one could have full understanding of the two, then it would enable deeper and richer readings from Tarot, I was thinking.

It is also interesting that they have different meanings of the same card depending on what deck you are using, so it is something to read up and study too.

Thank you for the recommendation on the books. I shall try to get the books and read them.

Hold up!

Are we able to do something here? Hermetic and Hebrew Kaballah are TWO very different things. They are not compatible.

The GD (read British and later the USA folks) used Hermetic. On the Continent they use Hebrew.

There are authors, really good ones who don't understand the difference - Ronald Decker for starters. His Art and Arcana book for the Scapini tarot is a mess. Scapini used Hebrew. Decker was mondo confused.

And no - spelling has zip all to do with which one is which. Because Hebrew has no vowels, and there is no standardized spelling. The spelling argument is projection.

So...Hebrew or Hermetic?

DarkWing : What is Greek kabbalah or qabalah ? Why are there two different spellings ?

Oh heavens, there's more than two spellings actually. Some folks use the Q, others the K, some the C.
Back in the early 1900's when research took a backseat to opinion, it was stated by some 'author' that the Q was hebrew, the K was hermetic, and the C was Christian.

Pappekak! Those statements assume standardized spelling and the use of vowels. Simply a projection from an English speaking pseudo-academic.

I'm still unsure why we use Greek, to interpret Hebrew - Ich verstehe nur Bahnhof.

When I first started studying Tarot and was exposed to the use of Kabbalah, I rejected it -- agreeing with the rabbinical scholar cited by Belenus

the hermetic cabalah has little to do, if anything, with the authentic Hebraic Kabalah. It is an aberration.

It was not until I encountered the excellent book Kabbalistic Tarot Hebraic Wisdom in the Major and Minor Arcana by Dovid Krafchow that I realized that indeed Tarot could be read in a Jewish context. It was a great relief, personally, to be able to reconcile these two important areas of my life.

I do now incorporate some basic Kabbalah in almost all of my readings.

I use a basic 4 Kabbalistic worlds approach assigning a world to each of the four suits. Assiyah corresponds to Pentacles and the world of materiality -- health, finances, domicile... ; Yetzirah corresponds to Cups and the world of feelings and relationships; Briyah corresponds to Swords and the world of the mind -- discrimination, communication, ethics... ; Atzilut corresponds to Wands and the world of creativity and spirituality.

The Tarot system that I have developed, Tarot Netivot, also incorporates many other aspects of Hebraic culture and teaching.

It is a system that makes lots of sense to me and my clients all seem to understand it clearly.

Natural Mystic Guide wrote: ↑04 Mar 2020, 15:36 It is a system that makes lots of sense to me and my clients all seem to understand it clearly.

Well, ultimately, that's the end game, isn't it?

Belenus wrote: ↑21 Feb 2020, 17:57
For what it is worth I have this from a rabbinical scholar: the hermetic cabalah has little to do, if anything, with the authentic Hebraic Kabalah. It is an aberration.

Belenus wrote: ↑21 Feb 2020, 17:57
I have a very close friend who is a Jew and a master tarotist. I trust him when he says that his extensive study of hermetic cabalah (which has direct roots to Lull's works) is a false interpretation of Judaic thought and spirituality and is bankrupt.

I know that any of us are free to apply a system to the tarot. "To each her/his own." I simply, based upon my own research and the scholarly research and opinions of others I trust, have chosen to never use it in tarot. So far, excluding it, has never made my readings any less accurate, applicable and effective.