The Oak King & Holly King

[Joan Marie]

Yesterday's reading for the Sacred days of Midsummer Readings was centered on the story of the Oak King and the Holly King.

I had to look that up and found this nice little video (with a Jethro Tull soundtrack to boot)





Quick Summary, these 2 kings are twins and they constantly pitted against one another.
But there is something about the story that is so counter-intuitive for me, and I wonder if anyone can explain.

It says that

The Golden Oak King, who is the Light Twin, rules from midwinter to midsummer.
The Darksome Holly King rules the dark half of the year from midsummer to mid winter.

So at midsummer, the Holly King wins, and at midwinter, Yule, the Oak king wins.

This seems completely backwards to me. Surely oak trees are at their height in Summer and Holly at winter when the Oak trees are dormant.

Does anyone, maybe with some knowledge of the Druids, have any clue, because according to the story, the Holly King is dominant right now.

Or am I, as Jethro Tull once sang, thick as brick?

[Pen]

I've always thought it's because here in the Northern hemisphere the year turns at midsummer and afterwards the days begin to get shorter (winter is coming), and at midwinter the days begin to lengthen again as we look forward to summer. The rituals seem almost to indicate cusps between two states of mind, looking ever forwards, helping to keep the wheel of the year turning .

[Joan Marie]

Thank you!

That makes so much sense when you say it!
Yes, keep the wheel turning.

[Rachelcat]

I did some research on British traditional holidays for my A British Wheel of the Year Spread, and I’m fascinated by calendar and holiday (and astrological) stuff.

I’m sure I’m not the only one to figure this out, but I don’t think I’ve read it anywhere.

The dating of Christian saint days and holidays are well known as sometimes being taken from pagan holidays, so I’m not going to get into a chicken-or-egg discussion here, but here goes.

Jesus’s birthday is Christmas, December 25. John the Baptist’s saint day (which is his birthday, not death day as for many saints) is June 24. Jesus and John are cousins, their mothers are sisters. There is a biblical story called the Visitation in which Mary, who is expecting (but not yet showing?), visits her sister, Elizabeth, who is expecting John, and John “recognizes” his cousin and kicks around in the womb. In a physical, gestational sense, it makes perfects sense that their birthdays are 6 months apart.

But it also make sense in a mythical sense. John is born and is celebrated first at midsummer. He founds and leads a religious community (based on baptism to wash away sins). But he is destined to diminish and finally relinquish his leadership and community to the rising light, born and celebrated at midwinter and increasing in power, his cousin Jesus.

This to me is the same story as the two kings or brothers who contend for rulership of the seasons. (Not that Jesus and John fought. John said he was Jesus’s forerunner, and led his followers to follow Jesus instead.)

Not to mention that the baptizer’s day is near when the sun enters Cancer, the cardinal WATER sign. And Christmas, the birth of the savior of the WORLD, the EARTHLY person of god, is near when the sun enters Capricorn, the cardinal EARTH sign.

What do you think? Have I gone too far? I don’t think so because of the saint days based on pagan holidays thing . . .

Just something to think about. I understand why modern pagans want to deemphasize Christian mythological themes, but maybe they’ve lost something by throwing out a part of our common European heritage. Since I’m neither Christian nor pagan, I just find it all a fascinating study in mythology!

[Joan Marie]

Thanks so much for this!
That's really interesting Rachelcat. I think you are really onto something there.
It is fascinating how when you start asking questions all these unexpected puzzle pieces start showing up and fitting in. All these connections.

[Papageno]

After visiting the Natural Pigments Website out of curiosity, I keep getting their emails, probably because of the cookies, not that I have any use for their products, which are only intended for the most talented professionals.

This time, the email featured a preview of a painting by

Elizabeth Zanzinger Art

Her art is exquisite, intelligent, subtle, and accessible, they have a very warm and comfortable feeling. Certain elements of her technique and style remind me of the works of Andrew Wyeth.

Since this thread about Oak and Holly Kings, this looks like an “Oak King” to me:

Oak King Eliz. Zanzinger.jpg (55.65 KiB) Viewed 2470 times

[Pen]

Beautiful...

[Venus Rising]

I did some research on British traditional holidays for my A British Wheel of the Year Spread, and I’m fascinated by calendar and holiday (and astrological) stuff.

I’m sure I’m not the only one to figure this out, but I don’t think I’ve read it anywhere.

The dating of Christian saint days and holidays are well known as sometimes being taken from pagan holidays, so I’m not going to get into a chicken-or-egg discussion here, but here goes.

Jesus’s birthday is Christmas, December 25. John the Baptist’s saint day (which is his birthday, not death day as for many saints) is June 24. Jesus and John are cousins, their mothers are sisters. There is a biblical story called the Visitation in which Mary, who is expecting (but not yet showing?), visits her sister, Elizabeth, who is expecting John, and John “recognizes” his cousin and kicks around in the womb. In a physical, gestational sense, it makes perfects sense that their birthdays are 6 months apart.

But it also make sense in a mythical sense. John is born and is celebrated first at midsummer. He founds and leads a religious community (based on baptism to wash away sins). But he is destined to diminish and finally relinquish his leadership and community to the rising light, born and celebrated at midwinter and increasing in power, his cousin Jesus.

This to me is the same story as the two kings or brothers who contend for rulership of the seasons. (Not that Jesus and John fought. John said he was Jesus’s forerunner, and led his followers to follow Jesus instead.)

Not to mention that the baptizer’s day is near when the sun enters Cancer, the cardinal WATER sign. And Christmas, the birth of the savior of the WORLD, the EARTHLY person of god, is near when the sun enters Capricorn, the cardinal EARTH sign.

What do you think? Have I gone too far? I don’t think so because of the saint days based on pagan holidays thing . . .

Just something to think about. I understand why modern pagans want to deemphasize Christian mythological themes, but maybe they’ve lost something by throwing out a part of our common European heritage. Since I’m neither Christian nor pagan, I just find it all a fascinating study in mythology!

Thanks for sharing your discoveries @rachelcat I haven’t heard this myself, but it makes so much sense to me. I was Catholic and now am a pagan, so I find it all quite interesting.