Cult of Tarot Forum

A long time ago I looked into using Etsy and I chose not to use it. This was probably a mistake, I don't know.

I seem to recall the reason was I felt they took too big a bite.

I would love to hear anybody's Etsy stories.

Does it work? Is it worth the cost because you sell so much?

I'm reminded of that line "I lose money on every sale but I make up for it in volume."

I used Etsy for many years with good success but it was not for tarot-related stuff. I'm a crafter and I happened to make stuff people really liked. I found Etsy easy to manage and my shop thrived. When I was sick and tired of that specific craft, I took a break and then tried to re-open my shop with my crochet tarot bags. They're works of love but not many people wanted them. I guess if you love crochet bags for your tarot deck, then you take a hook and make one. It's no rocket science after all.

But if you have something that people really want and you know to calculate the price exactly right - I think it's a good platform. I bought a number of decks via Etsy (and loads of other stuff, too, for example wonderful cosmetics) and haven't regretted it.

However, don't rely on Etsy alone to get your stuff sold. The marketing tools are not enough in my experience. Use other channels to make your product or service known.

Of course it costs to use Etsy, but you price your wares accordingly. Being on Etsy gives you broader visibility than forums and people who buy there feel more secure in their treatment than if they go to indie sites. At leas there is reliable feedback there whereas not necessarily on indie sites. Also, the stuff you sell on Etsy tends to be higher up on lists in Google searches so people who don't frequent the places where you advertise can find your stuff more easily.

I decided early on not to use Etsy to sell my tarot limited editions as these are very small - from 100 - 250 and (in fairness to collectors) not republished. They sell though my website and I usually only have a couple that are not OOP at any one time. I've bought a few tarots through Etsy but rarely go there now because it's difficult to find the genuine personal self-published or smallpress work among all the second-hand and other things. Creating a place where crafters could sell their work was a brilliant idea, but a search for tarot cards these days brings up pages and pages of items that have no creative connection to the seller.

Pen wrote: ↑03 Jun 2018, 08:09 ..it's difficult to find the genuine personal self-published or smallpress work among all the second-hand and other things. Creating a place where crafters could sell their work was a brilliant idea, but a search for tarot cards these days brings up pages and pages of items that have no creative connection to the seller.

Wouldn't it be brilliant to have a place like that, devoted to smallpress, self-published work? Even as a section on etsy.

I know what you mean, I have done etsy searches for Tarot Decks and it is exactly as you describe.

What I'd really like to find out is how well decks sell from there. As others have said, there is a whole audience at etsy who you miss if you don't have an shop there. Trying to move all your decks through a personal site can be slow business. I'm sure it helps to have several offerings and over time a personal site becomes more successful.

Many deck creators have 2-choices, either sitting on inventory that goes out in drips and drabs, or doing "print-to-order" which is slower and more expensive to fulfil.

I don't think Etsy could replace a personal website for many reasons, but how well does it work as an adjunct to one? At the risk of sounding like a crass capitalist, does it really help substantially increase turnover?

The thing is, we all have ideas, and new projects we'd like to start but it's kinda hard when you find yourself with an ever increasing inventory you feel you have to move before you can dive into more. We all have decks we'd like to re-issue with extras and improvements, but when you haven't sold the stock of the previous edition, it's hard. I'd really like to know if Etsy moves decks.

I just noticed something funny on Etsy, if you do a search for Shops with the word "Tarot" there are LOADS of them. Many are readers and accessories. Really hard to find decks.

BUT, if you do a search for shops with the words "Tarot Decks" there are 0 results. Seems like if you just added the word "Decks" to your shop name you'd stand right out.

I can't imagine that it would be worthwhile for selling personal collections, where you only have one of each item to sell. Ebay is much better suited to that sort of thing. But for creators and manufacturers of decks, Etsy is an unfortunate necessity.

For buyers, Etsy is terrific at bringing the work of hundreds of designers and craftspeople into my home that I would not know about otherwise. I have bought some great stuff via Etsy shops, and likely will again.

But as a seller I will say flat-out that Etsy is a PAIN in the ASS. Unfortunately there are many deck collectors out there who, for reasons of their own, will not order through my main site, no matter how much I try to point them in that direction, no matter how many times I tell them that they are paying slightly more by buying through Etsy, no matter that I have more items available at my own site, no matter that my site is fully retail functional and completely safe. The fact is that enough of my business comes through Etsy so that I cannot afford to stop using them.

But they hit you with fees every which way that they possibly can, and when a customer pays with Etsy Payments instead of Paypal (which Etsy naturally encourages), Etsy hangs on to the money for at least a day, sometimes for as much as a week. Sellers are expected to ship orders out that they have not been paid for.

In general I am against anything that puts barriers between the seller and the buyer, and Etsy does this is in a big way.

Another prominent Tarot creator that I know quit Etsy because their products did not turn up in searches unless they spent advertising money. This is probably true, although I refuse to advertise.

Anyway. The buyer in me loves Etsy, but the seller in me hates them with a purple passion and wishes he could do without them. So far, that's not possible.

This week, Etsy sent out the enclosed email to its sellers. It amounts to another kick in the teeth for sellers: they already extort money from us every which way that they can, and now they are, among other things, raising the transaction fees by a significant amount. I really am beginning to wonder it it's worth it. I will again have to raise the price that I charge for Ertsy sales, which is already higher than what I charge through my own website. Anyway, here is what they have to say for themselves:

------------

Dear Seller Community,

We’re writing to tell you about some changes at Etsy. We’ve been helping sellers on their creative journeys for 13 years now. We’ve focused on making Etsy the best place to run your creative business, and we’ve listened to sellers like you to learn more about what you need from us.

Now, we’re planning to invest even more in bringing buyers to Etsy, building seller tools, and improving your seller experience. To help make this happen, we’re updating our fees, and we’re adding some new features.

Effective July 16, Etsy’s transaction fee will increase from 3.5% to 5% and it will also apply to the cost of shipping. All other fees, including listing fees, will remain the same.

We’re also introducing new optional feature packages designed around the needs of sellers at different stages of growth, so you can access the right tools at the right time for your business.

If you’re happy with the services you currently use on Etsy, you can still access all the tools that are currently available to you without paying a monthly subscription fee. But if you want to do more, we’ll be offering two new plans: Etsy Plus, with tools to help businesses grow and express their unique brands, will be available in July. Etsy Premium, with more advanced tools for larger-scale businesses, will launch in 2019.

Explore our video and website to learn more about what’s changing and look for more information in the weeks to come. We’re excited to see what’s next for all of us as we continue to invest more in growing your business, together.

I think they've made a typo in that last para. - there's a 'y' in front of 'our'...

Pen wrote: ↑15 Jun 2018, 07:38 I think they've made a typo in that last para. - there's a 'y' in front of 'our'...

good one Pen.

I also enjoyed their choice of words to describe raising the costs as "updating our fees". (this time they left off the "y") Like they think they can slide this in unnoticed with all the other updates happening all over the web right now.

Without the craftspeople, there is no Etsy. Short of everyone shutting down their shops, there must be someway to protest this greed.

And to charge commission on postage...!!! Totally unacceptable.

Pen wrote: ↑15 Jun 2018, 14:06 And to charge commission on postage...!!! Totally unacceptable.

It's called capitalism. Greedy b@$tards. Last I heard eBay wasn't that bad.

I am considering closing my Etsy store with an announcement that if anyone wants my stuff to google (name of something I sell that's unique) and they will find my Big Cartel store.

Other Etsy sellers are pi$$ed, too. Here is the Etsy forum discussion .

One expects that all things change and evolve, but it seems that the Internet has a tendency to spawn good resources that all too quickly morph into monsters. I do wish that Etsy had kept to their original idea of a sales platform for handmade/craft work. Maybe someone will start again and keep to those guidelines - the trouble is that when things are organised digitally and take off there's no real/easy way of policing what people list.

I was just reading that thread on the Etsy forum. So many people are talking about just finally building their own website, as many of us already have. And we all know how not easy it is to get traffic to an independent website.

It gave me the idea of putting together a site that was an aggregate of independent craft websites. It would kind of look like Etsy but it would link buyers directly to the independent website run by the artist. The main site would have nothing to do with any transactions, just be a place buyers could find sellers.

It could maybe look something like this forum, each seller able to post pictures of their products, etc, with a link to their site. Organised by various craft types.

And like the Slamdance film festival which took it's name from the snooty Sundance film festival, we could call the new site Betsy or something like that. I'm picturing a mascot/logo of an evil crafter, spinning a potter's wheel with one hand, raising a middle finger to Etsy with the other.

This is all directly off the top of my head, so half-baked would be a generous description. But if people really want to start an indy craft-website revolution, which it kinda sounds like (and would be awesome) something like this could be a real service to that end. Indy websites can be very cheap and easy to run.

Etsy would have served a valuable purpose in bringing together so many creative and motivated people and then pissing them all off at once to spark something entirely new.

Your idea would be great. One of the things that Etsy promises to its sellers is that their algorithms put the sellers' items at the top of the Google hits. That's one of the big attractions of Etsy -- people can FIND the sellers' STUFF. That's something that it falls down on for my shop. Big Cartel is much better for returning hits for shops. Your idea could be really, really good if it's doable.

There are so many places, now, that offer venues for buyers and sellers. How could you market yours?

Tag Jorrit wrote: ↑17 Jun 2018, 01:07 There are so many places, now, that offer venues for buyers and sellers. How could you market yours?

Places like Big Cartel, etc., will likely see a growth spurt resulting from the Etsy exodus and may really prosper from it, offering people a new place to do the same thing they were doing at Etsy.

What would make "Betsy" different would be that it would be a service for those crafters who choose to go their own way and start an independent website they create and run entirely themselves using WIX or Wordpress or Blogger etc. This idea would be successful if it, as you point out, actually brought traffic to their websites through good search algorithms.

I'm just thinking of a way to support indy websites, help them get off the ground and encourage ongoing traffic. It seems like WIX and Wordpress and Blogger would be interested in seeing this happen.

And it would be great to see all that creativity unleashed, websites with a real aesthetic connection to the artists.

I've started a teensy test-balloon of the idea here in this forum

well you should see how well they bite now!;D looks too much if you ask me!x,x & fact is they are not ebay or amazon BUT think they can act that way thanks to rafters & selfpublishers?x,x rol roll
btw I use it only to *Spread the word when I have something new to offer & promote my official web, otherwise avoid!;)

Joan Marie wrote: ↑03 Jun 2018, 08:42

Pen wrote: ↑03 Jun 2018, 08:09 ..it's difficult to find the genuine personal self-published or smallpress work among all the second-hand and other things. Creating a place where crafters could sell their work was a brilliant idea, but a search for tarot cards these days brings up pages and pages of items that have no creative connection to the seller.

Wouldn't it be brilliant to have a place like that, devoted to smallpress, self-published work? Even as a section on etsy.

I know what you mean, I have done etsy searches for Tarot Decks and it is exactly as you describe.

What I'd really like to find out is how well decks sell from there. As others have said, there is a whole audience at etsy who you miss if you don't have an shop there. Trying to move all your decks through a personal site can be slow business. I'm sure it helps to have several offerings and over time a personal site becomes more successful.

Many deck creators have 2-choices, either sitting on inventory that goes out in drips and drabs, or doing "print-to-order" which is slower and more expensive to fulfil.

I don't think Etsy could replace a personal website for many reasons, but how well does it work as an adjunct to one? At the risk of sounding like a crass capitalist, does it really help substantially increase turnover?

The thing is, we all have ideas, and new projects we'd like to start but it's kinda hard when you find yourself with an ever increasing inventory you feel you have to move before you can dive into more. We all have decks we'd like to re-issue with extras and improvements, but when you haven't sold the stock of the previous edition, it's hard. I'd really like to know if Etsy moves decks.

Joan Marie wrote: ↑16 Jun 2018, 20:07 I was just reading that thread on the Etsy forum. So many people are talking about just finally building their own website, as many of us already have. And we all know how not easy it is to get traffic to an independent website.

It gave me the idea of putting together a site that was an aggregate of independent craft websites. It would kind of look like Etsy but it would link buyers directly to the independent website run by the artist. The main site would have nothing to do with any transactions, just be a place buyers could find sellers.

It could maybe look something like this forum, each seller able to post pictures of their products, etc, with a link to their site. Organised by various craft types.

And like the Slamdance film festival which took it's name from the snooty Sundance film festival, we could call the new site Betsy or something like that. I'm picturing a mascot/logo of an evil crafter, spinning a potter's wheel with one hand, raising a middle finger to Etsy with the other.

This is all directly off the top of my head, so half-baked would be a generous description. But if people really want to start an indy craft-website revolution, which it kinda sounds like (and would be awesome) something like this could be a real service to that end. Indy websites can be very cheap and easy to run.

Etsy would have served a valuable purpose in bringing together so many creative and motivated people and then pissing them all off at once to spark something entirely new.

We Need This!:D why not making it next step goal to this forum to have it's own selfpublished Tarot shop/for members only with New & used decks & readings/other services?:)
would be Happy to list here over etsy anytime especially if it support my forum!^^ lol

btw I used ebay to list my *not popular decks(aka all but pam's vintage) & was surprised to sell my top deck with extra price & to get 3 god offer for other not popular deck in a week!:) so if you need *promotion ebay best offer is good idea!:) also like their donate option so if it's expensive at least there is also good cause charity sake!;D lol

Joan Marie wrote: ↑15 Jun 2018, 07:59

Pen wrote: ↑15 Jun 2018, 07:38 I think they've made a typo in that last para. - there's a 'y' in front of 'our'...

good one Pen.

I also enjoyed their choice of words to describe raising the costs as "updating our fees". (this time they left off the "y") Like they think they can slide this in unnoticed with all the other updates happening all over the web right now.

Without the craftspeople, there is no Etsy. Short of everyone shutting down their shops, there must be someway to protest this greed.

This made me wonder about tarot garden. I don't know who runs the website but it'd be cool if there was a tarot shop online that someone ran selling decks they got for wholesale, that also earned commission off being a platform for other creator's decks, and made it available to purchase through the website and the creator could manage their little shop front through a user control panel or something (and be responsible for shipping the deck themselves, in that case).

Oooh and there could be an index like how aeclectic had, but also filters, and some sort of algorithm that make it easier to find decks of a particular aesthetic or a "people who like this deck also bought this deck" (lmao), or profiles of people who voluntarily share their collections and index them, so the website could sort of adapt it's algorithms. "Most people who like fairy decks like this also into this specific mystical sci-fi deck for some reason."

The only issue would be website costs and hosting might cancel out the commission earned? In which case it's not worth it for the wholesaler to advertise other people on their website, I think. Maybe I'm wrong though. Or it could be like a co-op haha.

Ahh, and deck bag shops....and tarot journals and related original things.....

My imagination ran wild for a second there, haha.

@Astralpasta exactly what we try to talk on fb no luck turning it RL so far!

I have not had much luck with Etsy, to be honest....am paying fees, but dont really sell much on there, so am considering closing it down and just using my website, facebook and instagram xx

EnchantedSoulArt wrote: ↑20 Sep 2019, 23:30 I have not had much luck with Etsy, to be honest....am paying fees, but dont really sell much on there, so am considering closing it down and just using my website, facebook and instagram xx

Since I made that original post I actually did go ahead and open and Etsy shop. I didn't do much with it, just opened it and it worked a little, but then it was dormant as my deck sold out.

I've just revived it with my new Lenormand deck and then I was asked by someone if I could add her decks into my shop (Etsy isn't available where she lives) so I just did that today and we'll see what happens. https://www.etsy.com/shop/RabbitsMoonTarot

I'm starting to think they really aren't worse fees-wise that having your own shop and taking paypal. Paypal takes something like 6% which is really a lot actually. Plus they really get you on currency conversion too.

Kickstarter gets a taste too of any success.

But you just have to figure all that into the price of things and hope people understand. It's still cheaper than paying rent on a storefront. And to be really honest, all 3 of those "services" do a really good job. They make commerce of this kind possible for us. It's just a pity they have to take SO much.

How's that working out, selling another creator's decks through your shop? Good on you for doing that.

It seems to me that that's a valid first step towards creating something like the system you were thinking about earlier in the thread.

For some considerable time now, I have been thinking about how beneficial it could be to independent designers and publishers to form a genuine publishing "co-op" in which we could pool our resources (not just money) and present a united front that could stand toe-to-toe with companies like U.S. Games and Lo Scarabeo, competing with them on equal terms. Something that would make wholesaling (and all the other tedious aspects of marketing) easier. As one example, I've been publishing a PDF catalog, and this is something that would be ever so much more interesting to retail and wholesale customers alike if it a) featured more decks than just my own and b) had wider distribution.

But I don't know how to make something like that work, and the very use of the word "independent" is part of the reason why. Everyone wants to keep their own identity, and the creation of a workable administration for the thing is well beyond my abilities. When I broached the subject with another creator, she was all "yeah, let me know when you figure that out!"

Getting back onto this thread's topic, Etsy caused another kerfuffle late this summer when they announced that sellers who offer free shipping will get preferential treatment in the search algorithms. I know a LOT of artists who were pissed about that.

My biggest frustration with Etsy right now is that I want to get rid of them completely, but can't afford to. I am cutting down on the items that I have listed there, and I am using every single listing primarily as a way of sending people to my main website. Every Single follow-up email that I send to customers tries to push them to my main site -- but there seem to be a large number of Etsy users who simply WILL NOT leave there to go to another site, no matter what you do. Point out that they will pay more for the same items if they buy from Etsy instead of my main site -- and they don't care. Point out that they will have access to many more decks and items at my main site -- and they don't care. It's like they are NAILED to Etsy, it's like they are pussyquats clinging to their favorite blanket: "NO! I WON'T GO AND YOU CAN'T MAKE ME! I DON'T CARE IF THE OTHER BLANKET IS FLUFFIER AND SOFTER OR IF THIS ONE NEEDS WASHING!! I WANT *THIS* ONE!!!!"

So.. yeah... my main concern with Etsy right now is finding an exit strategy that will not cost me business. Because Etsy is frankly no longer in the business to help independent crafters and creators to make a living off their work -- they are in the business to make money for Etsy.

DuckSoupProductions wrote: ↑23 Sep 2019, 22:25 How's that working out, selling another creator's decks through your shop? Good on you for doing that.

I just got that set up on Etsy in the last couple of days. Then I added her decks to my webpage (www.rabbitsmoontarot.com) So we are just getting started.

(I'm still working on that web-page aesthetically and content-wise, but the store part is functional.)

Yes you are right it's something I've been thinking about for a long time. But you want to know what is weird is that I am now that person who takes a bite out of someone else's profit. There is work involved of course with setting it up (that's most of the work) but then I have to communicate to her when sales come in etc. I am also the "face" of the store(s) so if there are any issues it'll be me that has to answer. I also have fees for transactions etc. I'm keeping my take as low as possible. We'll be figuring this out for a while.

But I am just as curious as you as to how it's going to work out. It helps that I kind of know her and know she is a serious person so I trust her to do business properly. And she trusts me to collect her money and get it to her.

One thing that is really starting to bite though is all the fees with transferring money and changing currency etc. I'm trying to work that out to everyone's best advantage. I've learned some interesting things for example, using paypal, if I change euros to dollars before I send them it's cheaper than if I send euros to be converted on the other end. And this all through paypal. They have different currency exchange rates depending on the type of transaction. On larger amounts the difference is substantial. I learned this by accident.

Weird, no?

We are both playing it by ear and seeing what works out and what doesn't. It's the first time she has done this as well. When I get a handle on the ins and outs I'll share the results here. If I can get it running smoothly I'd love to do more of it.

DuckSoupProductions wrote: ↑23 Sep 2019, 22:25 For some considerable time now, I have been thinking about how beneficial it could be to independent designers and publishers to form a genuine publishing "co-op" in which we could pool our resources (not just money) and present a united front that could stand toe-to-toe with companies like U.S. Games and Lo Scarabeo, competing with them on equal terms. Something that would make wholesaling (and all the other tedious aspects of marketing) easier. As one example, I've been publishing a PDF catalog, and this is something that would be ever so much more interesting to retail and wholesale customers alike if it a) featured more decks than just my own and b) had wider distribution.

But I don't know how to make something like that work, and the very use of the word "independent" is part of the reason why. Everyone wants to keep their own identity, and the creation of a workable administration for the thing is well beyond my abilities. When I broached the subject with another creator, she was all "yeah, let me know when you figure that out!"

I know that would work. I love the idea of an Indie Deck Co-Op and I'll bet a lot of people would to, creators and buyers/collectors alike.
It's not easy being Indie and constantly having to do all your own promotion all the time. I think everybody feels that. And I think buyers would love to continue seeing all the instagrams and tweets and stuff about decks, but when it comes to really looking for information or to just casually read about decks over a coffee, a monthly or quarterly catalog would be great. And this might sound really far fetched, but how great would it be to have a real printed one mailed out?

I would LOVE to get this figured out and going. It would be amazing.

DuckSoupProductions wrote: ↑23 Sep 2019, 22:25 So.. yeah... my main concern with Etsy right now is finding an exit strategy that will not cost me business. Because Etsy is frankly no longer in the business to help independent crafters and creators to make a living off their work -- they are in the business to make money for Etsy.

This is all over, not just Etsy. This is why the Indie Deck Co-Op would succeed if it were well-run and kept the right Indie-Artist Underground spirit. I wonder anymore if anyone even remembers what that is?

Again, good on you for being willing and able to figure all that stuff out ...

So what would be an acceptable and possibly productive First Step in the creation of such a "Tarot Publisher's Alliance" ? Is it as simple as opening up a new thread on the forum? I have worries about even talking of such a thing.

Or have you indeed already taken that first step with what you are doing at your site?

It's not unprecedented. Just in my own neck of the woods, Independent Publishers of New England (IPNE.org) seems to be ... surviving, and the Maine Writer's and Publishers Alliance (mwpa.org) has been going since 1975. So it CAN be done... I just don't know how to do it, and would not recommend myself for any kind of administrative position!! (My strengths are in marketing, if I have any strengths at all that would be applicable to a Tarot Publisher's Co-Op)......

How to even START to Start and make this happen?