Cult of Tarot Forum

Hi everyone,

So the Judgement card to me is one of the most difficult card to interpret , especially when it comes to love spreads. I was looking at this card and I just noticed that all the people in the card don't have genitals and they're naked and standing in something that looks like a box ( what I think are coffins), these people died and are in heaven and this is their judgment day ( that explains the angel blowing the horn )

For years I've thought these people were standing in water but now I've noticed they are floating on clouds.

so I would like to know what your interpretation is regarding this card

Lots of people have difficulties with the Judgement card.

They're not on clouds. They're on water as you first thought. And rising out from their coffins as you say. I don't know why they're on water. Maybe someone who knows the RWS well will come along to say why. But I'm also going to research this later this evening. It's an interesting point you brought up there. It's very different to the TdM card, although it has the same "etymology".

And they're not in heaven in the sense I think you mean. The card refers to the belief by some Christians of the day of resurrection. Once Jesus has made his second coming which some take literally. 1 Corinthians 15:52: "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Arthur Waite was a Christian. He managed the amazing feat of combining Christian beliefs and in a certain measure Christian mysticism with the Golden Dawn beliefs with all their rituals. Amazing because Christian mysticism at least has no creed nor ritual. And certainly requires no magic wand to have that direct and conscious union with God which is sought through Christian mysticism.

Some people think the angel represents the Angel Raphael, others Gabriel, although the name is not specifically mentioned in the Bible as being the one who blows the trumpet. That is why there is this debate I would suppose. But there is definitely an angel that blows the trumpet to announce the resurrection. In Islam, it is the angel Isrāfīl who blows the trumpet. Raphael I would assume then. The Muslims also believe in the resurrection and and even that it is Jesus who will slay the Antichrist during the mighty and fierce Apocalypse battle. They're all rooting for Jesus they are, the Muslims. He'll even be assuming the leadership of everything afterwards. But then he'll die 40 years later and be buried in Medina. So in spite of all this resurrection business, there's still death hovering around.

I don't think the genitals issue is important here.

I just wanted to clear that up before getting into the interpretations. I'll be back later to do this though. But I hope some RWS people will step in soon. They'll have more background.

I love the Judgement card. I love all the cards though. And a lot of people don't get it at all. And there is a curious confusion very often between Justice and Judgement. I think to understand Judgement, one needs also to clear up also what Justice is, due to the fact that it can muddy things up if it's not cleared up from the beginning. I made a post here or on another forum about the difference once. I'll try and find it and repost it if necessary.

So, from the theoretical to the practical.

One should keep in mind that Judgement is the second last card. After this, the work is fully accomplished.

So in a reading, it could mean that a project is reaching its term and that it will be fruitful, as the angel is sounding his trumpet and the people are standing there in admiration and praise.

Now, this card can also mean a kind of renewal, as it has a connection to the concept of resurrection. So it could mean, for instance in a reading where someone is going through some ill health, that their trials will soon be over and that they will regain their health.

In a love reading, which you mentioned, it could most definitely mean, in answer to the question about a love relationship, that this person is a keeper and that the relationship will bloom into something really wonderful. However, in a reversed position - a "negative" position, it could mean that there is some kind of illusion. It looks all good, but it's upside down.

If you're reading about a choice between two options, like two jobs or something, the Judgement card is certainly a good sign. But if the other option is the Star... well, that's going to be a helluva difficult choice. Better in that case I think to give it 24 hours and then pull some cards for more insight.

If it's an answer to the question "will I get the job I've been interviewed for", the answer would be yes.

It can also refer to the birth of a child.

That kind of thing....

Of course, any meaning is influenced by the other cards. That's also why it's very important to be very clear about the positions in the spread so that they can be put to proper use. If we are careless in our spreads, we end up often by asking the same question again and again and then we get mightily confused and there's no way to unravel the mess most of the time.

Interesting!

so are they on water being called to heaven ? it looks like their soul is replenished and they are not of sin anymore and maybe the angel is preparing them to become angels as well? . God is ready to call them to heaven. So is the symbolism air and water in this card ?

I'm answering again, although it should ideally be someone else, as I'm really not that well versed in the RWS deck. I hope someone who is an RWS user will be along soon.

According to the traditional Christian belief in the final resurrection, the dead will all be raised and come alive again. I think afterwards they are chosen to go off to heaven or not. But I'm not sure. Maybe they just hang around on earth for eternity. I think that's why some Christians don't want to be incinerated after death - so that their bodies can rise again. They are rising from the water because there is further information about the resurrection in the Bible in the chapter of Revelations which says "The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works." So that's why they are rising from water (in my first post I didn't realise this - but it was easy to find with a bit of research).

It's not really important actually for interpreting the card. I told you all that in the first post just so you understood what inspired Waite for his card. It mustn't be taken as a literal resurrection in the tarot. Waite just used this as a metaphor for the card. It definitely has something to do with new beginnings, new life, new something. It can also be a strong reminder to answer a call. Like if you've been longing to be, for instance, a nurse, you will have the opportunity - don't be asleep when the trumpet sounds to call you !!

You asked if the symbol of the card is water or air ? I also don't think it's too important, unless one is really wanting to go into deeper studies of the RWS deck. If one is just wanting to use it for normal divination, then when just LOOKING at the card, there's definitely a lot of water and air (from the trumpet). But this is not really going to help you when you're doing a reading. The official RWS element of this card is in fact Fire - but then again, I don't think this is of particular interest to you. Especially when one is starting out in the tarot. Keep things simple at first.

Diana wrote: ↑14 Feb 2020, 15:43 They are rising from the water because there is further information about the resurrection in the Bible in the chapter of Revelations which says "The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works." So that's why they are rising from water (in my first post I didn't realise this - but it was easy to find with a bit of research).

Diana wrote: ↑14 Feb 2020, 15:43Arthur Waite was a Christian. He managed the amazing feat of combining Christian beliefs and in a certain measure Christian mysticism with the Golden Dawn beliefs with all their rituals. Amazing because Christian mysticism at least has no creed nor ritual. And certainly requires no magic wand to have that direct and conscious union with God which is sought through Christian mysticism.

hmmmm, Christianity and Hermeticism, a hot topic full of pitfalls and minefields, just take for instance the Roman Catholics and Baptists, even the Anglicans, C of E (Church of England).

The Anglicans say they don't believe in "Papist" ritual and idolatry (Saints), but they certainly make sure their newborns are baptized.
The Queen of England is the Head of the Church, she is crowned (anointed by God and the Archbishop of Canterbury), yields the Orb with a Cross affixed at the top (worldly power of Christendom) and Sceptre (certainly a wand by any other name).

The (Southern) Baptists are all about spiritual cleansing by an ordained Minister who immerses congregants in a body of water such as a river or a lake. The Evangelical Christians (Baptists and similar sects) take their Hellfire and Brimstone very seriously.

Roman Catholicism is filled with rituals and commensurate "magical" instruments. Just take a look at Waite's Ace of Cups card, it speaks volumes.

Diana wrote: ↑14 Feb 2020, 15:43You asked if the symbol of the card is water or air ? I also don't think it's too important, unless one is really wanting to go into deeper studies of the RWS deck. If one is just wanting to use it for normal divination, then when just LOOKING at the card, there's definitely a lot of water and air (from the trumpet). But this is not really going to help you when you're doing a reading. The official RWS element of this card is in fact Fire - but then again, I don't think this is of particular interest to you. Especially when one is starting out in the tarot. Keep things simple at first.

Keeping things simple is always excellent advice, however, it is not, IMHO, so easily achieved.
But I argue that one may still read this or any other card meaningfully even if they don't apply the correct elemental or astrological associations.
In other words, although this (Judgment) card according to Waite is ruled by Fire, a tarot reader raised from birth as a very devout evangelical Christian and sees the body of water and associates this with a passage from the Book of Revelations, he/she can still derive an accurate and meaningful reading.
One might say that this is not correct or objective, but if this works for the reader, then who are we to say otherwise?

Papageno wrote: ↑16 Feb 2020, 06:23

hmmmm, Christianity and Hermeticism, a hot topic full of pitfalls and minefields, just take for instance the Roman Catholics and Baptists, even the Anglicans, C of E (Church of England).

The Anglicans say they don't believe in "Papist" ritual and idolatry (Saints), but they certainly make sure their newborns are baptized.
The Queen of England is the Head of the Church, she is crowned (anointed by God and the Archbishop of Canterbury), yields the Orb with a Cross affixed at the top (worldly power of Christendom) and Sceptre (certainly a wand by any other name).

The (Southern) Baptists are all about spiritual cleansing by an ordained Minister who immerses congregants in a body of water such as a river or a lake. The Evangelical Christians (Baptists and similar sects) take their Hellfire and Brimstone very seriously.

Roman Catholicism is filled with rituals and commensurate "magical" instruments. Just take a look at Waite's Ace of Cups card, it speaks volumes.

Oh definitely, organised religion is full of rituals and things. But there's not much Christianity in most of the organised religions. Once a friend of mine had a baby. She asked me to be godmother as she was going to baptise the girl in an Anglican church. I asked her why the hell she was going through this rigmarole as she never went to church nor prayed or anything. She said "so if she dies, she'll go to heaven". I told her that that was one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

Keeping things simple is always excellent advice, however, it is not, IMHO, so easily achieved.
But I argue that one may still read this or any other card meaningfully even if they don't apply the correct elemental or astrological associations.
In other words, although this (Judgment) card according to Waite is ruled by Fire, a tarot reader raised from birth as a very devout evangelical Christian and sees the body of water and associates this with a passage from the Book of Revelations, he/she can still derive an accurate and meaningful reading.
One might say that this is not correct or objective, but if this works for the reader, then who are we to say otherwise?

Well, the water does refer to a passage from Revelations. Whether one is raised in Christianity or not, one has to take that into account in some manner. And that the people are rising from water - not from the earth. In the TdM, there is one person rising from the tomb which is on land and two people are standing in front of him in praise and admiration. There's no water in the TdM Judgement.

Diana wrote: ↑16 Feb 2020, 17:40
Well, the water does refer to a passage from Revelations. Whether one is raised in Christianity or not, one has to take that into account in some manner. And that the people are rising from water - not from the earth. In the TdM, there is one person rising from the tomb which is on land and two people are standing in front of him in praise and admiration. There's no water in the TdM Judgement.

I always enjoy reading your posts, they are very elucidating, and may I add I enjoy your candor immensely, you certainly don't pull any punches.

Having said that, I must refrain from reading some of your "off the cuff" commentaries with my morning coffee, otherwise, I risk short-circuiting my keyboard (again), if you take my meaning

I see the judgement card as a rebirth, a renewal. Being called out of a long period of some kind of slumber. I find it especially hopeful when it shows up after some darker cards.

In a love reading it would really depend on the other cards, the question, and where the querent is in their life. It could mean an important realization about the current relationship or partner, it could mean breaking free of an abusive situation, or emerging after a long period of being single or unhappy, etc.

In a way, Tarot is a ritual that often uses opening and closing quotations or verses around a building up process : question, randoming, answer. It is threefold in its dynamic of reader, images, querent. Of course, Tarot can also be for individual contemplation, with associating and joining symbols, a kind of contemplative synthesizing. As to the Judgment image-- I think of it as overcoming the loaded Christianized word with a great awakening or transformation, from Malkuth to Kether, from heavy weight of matter to weightless light of spirit. I like what Crowley did to makeover the word and image into Aeon. The words do strongly influence the meaning. It would be interesting to see a list of new words for Judgment.

To add to all the great comments already made in this thread on the RWS judgement card: symbolically this (Bible) scene is about spiritual awakening. Both the sea and the coffins are symbols for the unconscious. Christian resurrection is a metaphor for spiritual awakening while still on earth (and alive, but now connected to God). Rising from the sea or/and a coffin is wakening up from an unconsicous (animal-like) way of living. Not having genitals refers to sublimation of the sexual energies, necessary for awakening. (IMHO )

The judgment arcetype is 1 of the 3 cards in the Tarot that speak of a high degree of knowledge, It is also a card of union.

This arcetype is best understood with knowing the past in the present and the future is the present. Its judgment, its emotional and all about thoughts and feelings, it works within the subconscious mind.

Here the image shows figures naked, awakening from their sleeping coffins as an Arch Angel hovers above blowing a horn. In the Waite Rider deck its Gabriel.

This card has allot of chapters in its book.

The basic definition: coming to terms from the past, renewal, awakening, redemption etc.

Judgment in a love definition: speaks of the reality of a serious relationship; rather than the excitement of dating and searching.
It signifies that the person loves who their partner used to be rather than who they have become. There is a renewal needed in the relationship. Its not a card that speaks of a new love, but a healing required from a previous love that can be rooted in childhood as in a parent child relationships.

Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

For with whatever judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with whatever measure you measure, it will be measured to you.

There is more to Tarot wisdom than doing a reading for your self and others, it's a book in metaphysics.

So when we judge something or someone, we judge our self first and that mental emotional energy builds in your physical, mental and emotional auras and spiritually effects the conscious creation of your reality. Something to ponder.

Thanks for your insights, Pilgrim. "The past in the present, the future in the present"-- great way to tell the Mystery of it. Awakening not at the end of time but right now. Not really about Judgement but about getting beyond that ancient way of seeing reality. Clearing the Soul, not heaven or hell. "I can see clearly now."

The ancient reality was a phase of human development in consciousness. Just like our current era where we have incredible break throughs in areas of academics available to anyone willing to learn.

In the Christian teachings there were two paths heaven or hell, this methods created a duality within the human psyche, it taught humanity to fear God. Yet God is good, loving and forgiving through Jesus Christ, and provided a system of belief to follow through discipline. Though we view its history as cruel and barbaric, it actually brought humanity to the it is today. Now it's somewhat obsslete I'm more modern civilizations.

There are many ways we can perceive the "awakening". An example is when we take our first breath into the world, though we are blind and ignorant to the physical reality we are to journey on, we are actualy heavenly awakened to the spiritual truths.

Another angle to view the awakening, is through the physical death stage of life where our soul is reborn again into the kingdom of souls. What we call life is death to the soul, and what we call death is life for the soul.

If you believe in reincarnation the judgment arcetype has significant meaning in this subject. Clearing the soul takes many life times before reaching a level of spiritual evolution where the soul not need to reincarnated back into the physical world.