The Yaqui Spread - (In development, please comment)

[Monk]

The Yaqui Spread.

EDIT: This thread deals with the development of a spread. This spread is inspired on the writings of C. Castaneda and in these writings the author speaks of "enemies". Over the course of developing this spread I have come to consider the word enemies unfitting, not feeling right. I'm editing this word out as much as I can here and there. If you come across this word, read "Phase" in stead. Castaneda used this word to reference to matter that is challenging us in life, and in particular on "the path to becoming a person of knowledge".I have decided to change the word "Enemy" for "Phase". Meaning; cycling through the Phases we have to deal with aspects that signify each phase.


Someone wonderful here at CoT convinced me to come out with my thoughts and aspirations. I have stage fright, and feel like a noob. I also feel most of the time confused as everything is of equal importance. And thats a b*** when sort of everything out there is of interest. Still she convinced me that even though I feel like this it might make for a good thread. Maybe it is the flawed and muddled things that are suitable for a good conversation. And hey, I might benefit by learning a thing or two whilst so stubbornly being on my own path.

Thank You Diana.

So, I have been reading the most in Plato's cave. I feel comfy there. The way discussion develops, topics are approached resonate with me. It is the manner of discussion that works for me and it is in this light that I have been working in the attic on some stuff that I care about and am about to share. Plato's Cave feels like the right place for me as I'm trying to establishing first and foremost a clear view on why I am drawn to the Tarot, to me this is a philosophical question. Why the Tarot? I have clues; the most clear one being the cyclic aspects of the Tarot deck. Which resonates with my view on and understanding of 'God/it'. From there I will find my way as lots of the world of Tarot feels alien to me. This is a lack of knowledge of course. Maybe it is because of my stubborn nature. ..most of the spreads dont work for me, most traditional interpretations confuse me. So I took up the challenge of first looking inside myself, what I need, what I seek in order to focus my energy and effort to get to the answers I seek. There's some leads tho. My first revelation being that I genuinely feel that I need my own spread, a very particular one containing my world-God-it -view as a structure before it can speak clearly to me by presenting answers and insights in a structure that helps me from my personal perspective.
It would need to be a spread that does not persé leans on narrowed down questions so the deck can "present a clear answer". Rather a spread that puts "me" in perspective. So no answering too literal questions here.

This all started with a book that made huge impact on me; Castaneda's "The teachings of Don Juan, A Yaqui Way Of Knowledge". I rarely read books as it is extremely hard for me. There is a passage in that book that provided me with my first real hint at how Tarot might work for me. In this passage Castaneda describes Don Juan's (a native American) teaching about how to become a "person of knowledge" and how a person trying to become one needs to overcome his/her 4 enemies: fear, clarity, power and death. Clear as can be I envisioned a spread that captured the essence of Don Juan's teachings about how to become a person of knowledge. It resonated firmly with my insight that any spread that would work for me would need to be cyclic by nature. Cyclic to accommodate my approach towards the Tarot ánd my existence. This proposed spread would always place me somewhere on the 'it' cycle, somewhere in context of all the energies in the Tarot ánd provide me with a sense of 'state'. This proposed spread would dodge the aspects of reading that at this stage in my development I feel uncomfortable with; linearity and 'just random questions'. I think I am trying to say that I am looking for the cards to help me gain insight in my place in the universe, how I relate to it. I know it may seem far fetched or overdone but I know inside this is my path. I haven't shared this with any one as my understanding of the Tarot is still flawed, I'm in a vulnerable state of being very open and searching. Still I would very much so like to share it with people I feel comfortable with. Reflect upon it together with people that I feel comfortable opening up to. I sincerely hope there's some of you out here that would be willing to look at my obviously flawed angle of approach, but I feel there's something there.

I am truly sorry, but you'd have to take in the text of the teachings or it would make no sense to go any further trying to grasp my train of thought.

Later on, when my copy comes back from being borrowed out I'll scan the pages and paste them here for future reference. It might take a while tho.

The audio book of Castaneda's masterpiece can be found here:
At minute: 50:46 > 57:10 there's the passage that inspired me to figure out this hunch I had into a spread. (I envisioned a form/structure/workings the moment I read it, clear as crystals.)


At minute: 50:46 > 57:10 there's the passage that inspired me to figure out this hunch I had into a spread. (I envisioned a form/structure/workings the moment I read it, clear as crystals.)

So over the past months I have been taking in this teachings, reflect upon them and see how the Tarot might come in. How they could be overlayed in a way that would capture that epiphany I had into a tool for divination, or at the very least a form of spread that would really work for me.

So Don Juan's teaching about becoming a man of knowledge breaks down in this pattern; for becoming a person of knowledge one first hast to overcome his fear. Which grants him the tool of clarity, only to find out it too can be an enemy which has to be over come. Doing so grants him the tool of real power (of knowledge). Only to find one's last enemy; old age.. a truly magnificent foe. There it sort of ends, for Don Juan.

For me how ever it does nót stop there. I have overcome many fears, grown from it and gained insight into why my fears were there, gained clarity. Worked with my clarity to deal with stuff in my life so that I got in charge of my fears, used my clarities to the benefit of myself and those around me. In certain parts of my life I felt to be stronger than before, I felt powerful in stead of weak, afraid.

Only to find out that around the corner there is yet another emotional challenge, another form of fear, another flaw of the ego, so called clarity, and that some power makes one blind and careless. And so the wheel goes round and round. To Don Juan this path is linear. In a sense it is, but over and over again in my view. So circular in essence. So I started working with these thoughts and tried to look at this all in a way that would allow it to be captured in a spread. So that this spread would become a sort of guide as to how I would be relating at any time to this "path" or position in the cycle of Fear/Clarity/Power/Fear/Clarity/Power/Fear/Clarity/Power/ Old age and Death...

My ponderings are forked in two directions:

1.) Experimenting with specific Tarot cards on the (tri-angular "Cycle" of) stages as proposed by Don Juan.
*** I feel the path of becoming a person of knowledge is not a line but a cycle . Meaning: I have been trying to see the Tarot as cyclic and see how the Tarot would correspond with the tri-angular cycle of the path of becoming a person of knowledge. A "path that is a cycle" as we are always challenged and can fall back tumble down again.. There's many cycles we need to complete as there's many layers of challenges in our personalities.

The above to see if and how the Tarot would resonate in Don Juan's way of seeing the path. Just an experiment to get a feel for things.

And:
2.) Taking my hunches and insights from stage one (above) and come up with card positions and corresponding meanings to those positions in a spread that would allow to read one's position in a/the/one's cycle of becoming a person of knowledge.

---
I came up with 3 diagrams to straighten out my thoughts and see where logic could get me. I never did a reading with this spread as I have a strong feeling I will destroy the idea if I do it prematurely. It would cloud my judgement of the spread. Also because I am still really puzzled with the corresponding tarot cards within the philosophy of Don Juan's proposed "path". I have already said that the traditional card meanings at times confuse me, I sort of have my own intuitive energies for them. They're close to traditional, but.. well different.

*** It would be absolutely marvellous for me to be able to reflect on this last thingy***

I've made a start to share these ideas by making diagrams to help convey my intention. They're flawed yes, I feel somewhat stuck. But in essence there is something there for me I truly believe in will one day be my tool, your tool if you please.

Click the images, the open up higher resolution.

This is the schematic with the Tarot imposed on the cycle/path positions, an experiment.


This is a 9 (10) card spread, possibly a 19 card spread when one chooses to 'open up' with a second stage.

And this is the spread: Stage 1


And Stage 2 with additional card positions to "open up"


-----------------------

I hope this tread can host some discussion as to why I did certain things, how I came to choices, how I see stuff influence the other, how the structure might work etc etc. Dont be shy, I can stand critique as long as it is serving betterment for me personally any other kind people and for this spread and it's use maybe one day for others.

Namaste

Monk

[Diana]

What an amazing post. I can't wait to read it in depth and answer it adequately. This will not be before tomorrow though, due to time management.

You've brought up a lot of issues... and your spreads are truly fascinating. And Castaneda, that's someone that has on very brief occasions been mentioned in some tarot spheres, but don't recall it ever being pursued, only mentioned by a couple of people who probably didn't receive an echo so stopped talking about it.

I read some Castaneda when I was just out of my teenage years. I don't think I really understood what I was reading. It's a great opportunity to rediscover him and his writings. For sure, in the late 70s and early 80s, he was a big name. It was very "hip" to read him. I think most people, like me, just read him because it was cool to do so.

So thank you Monk for all this. And I look forward to the debate and discussions that will hopefully ensue.

[Diana]

Monk, I will respond here at first only to the first part of your post. And get back to the rest tomorrow. I think there's enough in the first part to start up a nice discussion already. I hope more people will pop in. The rest will probably be more interesting though, as it gets into the nitty gritty. So let's say this is just the starter.

I have stage fright, and feel like a noob. I also feel most of the time confused as everything is of equal importance. And thats a b*** when sort of everything out there is of interest. Still she convinced me that even though I feel like this it might make for a good thread. Maybe it is the flawed and muddled things that are suitable for a good conversation. And hey, I might benefit by learning a thing or two whilst so stubbornly being on my own path.

Ah, stage fright. I still shake in my boots when I do a reading for someone else. It is normal to have the jitters when one comes face to face with the Grandiose Tarot. You'll probably feel like a noob forever, so vast is the Tarot. "Flawed and muddled" - that sounds unlikely. Sounds more to me like someone untangling the skein of yarn. And please remain stubbornly on your path until and if you see a better path. One can't go down six roads at the same time. Even two is impossible. Just keep your eyes open for interesting things on the road and pathways and detours and little diversions that give colour and variety to your journey. That's my advice anyway. A little outing from time to time for some fresh and different air is not a bad thing.

So, I have been reading the most in Plato's cave. I feel comfy there. The way discussion develops, topics are approached resonate with me. It is the manner of discussion that works for me and it is in this light that I have been working in the attic on some stuff that I care about and am about to share. Plato's Cave feels like the right place for me as I'm trying to establishing first and foremost a clear view on why I am drawn to the Tarot, to me this is a philosophical question. Why the Tarot? I have clues; the most clear one being the cyclic aspects of the Tarot deck. Which resonates with my view on and understanding of 'God/it'. From there I will find my way as lots of the world of Tarot feels alien to me. This is a lack of knowledge of course. Maybe it is because of my stubborn nature. ..most of the spreads dont work for me, most traditional interpretations confuse me. So I took up the challenge of first looking inside myself, what I need, what I seek in order to focus my energy and effort to get to the answers I seek. There's some leads tho. My first revelation being that I genuinely feel that I need my own spread, a very particular one containing my world-God-it -view as a structure before it can speak clearly to me by presenting answers and insights in a structure that helps me from my personal perspective.
It would need to be a spread that does not persé leans on narrowed down questions so the deck can "present a clear answer". Rather a spread that puts "me" in perspective. So no answering too literal questions here.

What's so nice about Plato's Cave is that we stop looking at our navels and look at the bigger picture. Instead of concentrating on our little corner that we occupy in the universe (and it is a very little tiny corner indeed) as if it were the centre of the univers, and even worse, the only universe, we can picture ourselves on the big painting - the big scene. It's a bit like you say when you talk about putting the "me" in perspective. It's the perspective we lack too often. In Plato's Cave, with the assistance of the Tarot, we become a beholder instead of being only a little actor who plays a small role in the play and never gets to meet most of the other actors nor even knows exactly the plot of the play. We only know our few lines.

We can also be a traveller if we wish - just like Le Bateleur (Magician) of the TdM or the Fool of the RWS - a voyager in space and time and philosophy. Plato's Cave and suchlike is the next stage in Tarot. It's been done on a more academic scale - serious books have been written - but it's not yet been done on the internet in a discussion form.

The time for reading whether the guy we met at the party fancies us, or if we'll get the job we're looking for, will probably always have a place somewhere in the world of Tarot, but I feel that the time is now ripe for it to be used for bigger questions and I think Plato's Cave is a sign of this. There have been a few little tiny signs elsewhere on the internet, but Plato's Cave is the strongest sign so far.

What do you mean by the "cyclic" aspects of the Tarot ? I see it more as a layered thing - the first seven Major Arcana representing the material, the second seven Major Arcana the mind or mental aspect, and the last seven the Divine aspect. I see the Tarot as something ascending, but not cyclic. So I'm curious as to why you say this.

Oh, those spreads that never work for you. I've never even bothered to try and make them work for me. Have more or less ignored royally and without regrets all spreads, all books on spreads, and the chapters on spreads in books have always remained 100% unread. Please please make up your own spread. The only spread I use that is a common one is the Past Present Future, but that's such a logical spread that one doesn't need a book to learn it. It sort of comes naturally when you have a pressing question.

So by all means Monk, the "noob", make up your own spreads according to your needs and desires and fancy and whim. As long as it's coherent and isn't muddled!!! And from the brief glance I took at your spreads, they look amazing (but that's on first glance - I'll give you more of my opinion when I take the time to ponder them tomorrow).

It's nice also that you can put your own view of God/It in your dealings with the Tarot. I think every single person on this earth, whether they know it or not, is looking for God - and yearn to unite again with that Source of all things, with that Sustaining Principle which is Creator and Created. We all find God/It in our own individual way. There are as many ways as there are human beings - as many ways as there are different DNAs and fingerprints. But we all have the same Source. It's all the same Life that courses through our veins. The Life in yours in no different to mine. Or Mary's. Or Don Juan's.

I thought I would respond to more of your post here, but as the rest is very Castaneda based, and I need time to think about him and the references you've provided and the info, I'll do this another time tomorrow no doubt.

I don't like writing posts that touch on too many subjects at the same time. I get confused after a while.

[Monk]

Monk, I will respond here at first only to the first part of your post. And get back to the rest tomorrow. I think there's enough in the first part to start up a nice discussion already. I hope more people will pop in. The rest will probably be more interesting though, as it gets into the nitty gritty. So let's say this is just the starter.

I have stage fright, and feel like a noob. I also feel most of the time confused as everything is of equal importance. And thats a b*** when sort of everything out there is of interest. Still she convinced me that even though I feel like this it might make for a good thread. Maybe it is the flawed and muddled things that are suitable for a good conversation. And hey, I might benefit by learning a thing or two whilst so stubbornly being on my own path.

Ah, stage fright. I still shake in my boots when I do a reading for someone else. It is normal to have the jitters when one comes face to face with the Grandiose Tarot. You'll probably feel like a noob forever, so vast is the Tarot. "Flawed and muddled" - that sounds unlikely. Sounds more to me like someone untangling the skein of yarn. And please remain stubbornly on your path until and if you see a better path. One can't go down six roads at the same time. Even two is impossible. Just keep your eyes open for interesting things on the road and pathways and detours and little diversions that give colour and variety to your journey. That's my advice anyway. A little outing from time to time for some fresh and different air is not a bad thing.

So, I have been reading the most in Plato's cave. I feel comfy there. The way discussion develops, topics are approached resonate with me. It is the manner of discussion that works for me and it is in this light that I have been working in the attic on some stuff that I care about and am about to share. Plato's Cave feels like the right place for me as I'm trying to establishing first and foremost a clear view on why I am drawn to the Tarot, to me this is a philosophical question. Why the Tarot? I have clues; the most clear one being the cyclic aspects of the Tarot deck. Which resonates with my view on and understanding of 'God/it'. From there I will find my way as lots of the world of Tarot feels alien to me. This is a lack of knowledge of course. Maybe it is because of my stubborn nature. ..most of the spreads dont work for me, most traditional interpretations confuse me. So I took up the challenge of first looking inside myself, what I need, what I seek in order to focus my energy and effort to get to the answers I seek. There's some leads tho. My first revelation being that I genuinely feel that I need my own spread, a very particular one containing my world-God-it -view as a structure before it can speak clearly to me by presenting answers and insights in a structure that helps me from my personal perspective.
It would need to be a spread that does not persé leans on narrowed down questions so the deck can "present a clear answer". Rather a spread that puts "me" in perspective. So no answering too literal questions here.

What's so nice about Plato's Cave is that we stop looking at our navels and look at the bigger picture. Instead of concentrating on our little corner that we occupy in the universe (and it is a very little tiny corner indeed) as if it were the centre of the univers, and even worse, the only universe, we can picture ourselves on the big painting - the big scene. It's a bit like you say when you talk about putting the "me" in perspective. It's the perspective we lack too often. In Plato's Cave, with the assistance of the Tarot, we become a beholder instead of being only a little actor who plays a small role in the play and never gets to meet most of the other actors nor even knows exactly the plot of the play. We only know our few lines.

We can also be a traveller if we wish - just like Le Bateleur (Magician) of the TdM or the Fool of the RWS - a voyager in space and time and philosophy. Plato's Cave and suchlike is the next stage in Tarot. It's been done on a more academic scale - serious books have been written - but it's not yet been done on the internet in a discussion form.

That Is why I greatly appreciate PC!

The time for reading whether the guy we met at the party fancies us, or if we'll get the job we're looking for, will probably always have a place somewhere in the world of Tarot, but I feel that the time is now ripe for it to be used for bigger questions and I think Plato's Cave is a sign of this. There have been a few little tiny signs elsewhere on the internet, but Plato's Cave is the strongest sign so far.

Well Tarot, and all the other card structures, is not apart from philosophy nor from physics. I am playing with some concepts of for one: Schreudingers cat, chance! Quantum entanglement. Concepts that hugely impact my understanding of the Tarot. I feel like a christian at times being asked about dinosaurs. Plato's Cave seems to be the sole place on the web indeed where I will be able to find a working explanation.

What do you mean by the "cyclic" aspects of the Tarot ? I see it more as a layered thing - the first seven Major Arcana representing the material, the second seven Major Arcana the mind or mental aspect, and the last seven the Divine aspect. I see the Tarot as something ascending, but not cyclic. So I'm curious as to why you say this.

Oh no! The Tarot is cyclic I know the deck is a 'countable' and thus limited sequence of cards. To me the Tarot's mechanics however are cyclic, a tool to reflect our existence and what happens in it in. Yes our existence is linear. We die. But what happens in our lives is (re)cyclic very much so.
Yes you too, are correct in my view Diana, the Tarot and life are layered. There's many layers; of thought, problem solving, emotional dealing, raising kids, working days, seasons you name it. Each when finished, concluded leads to a new issue. Lots of times this new issue challenges us again at the beginning of the path of dealing with the issue. We are not perfect beings, we learn as we go, and there's só many things we are confronted with. So, yes each issue is linear and many are layered (more layers for people who are more "open"). Ergo: one is challenged-finds a way to deal-addresses the issue. ...But: there's at any given time numerous things challenging me, all of these processes at various stages of dealing with them. Me, I am relating to each of these issues in various states, attitudes, given different bags of experience from prior challenges to deal with them. When I finish one issue (of 10 going on) the next one presents it self. Like a dog chasing its tail. Around every corner there is a challenge. This all can be addressed by the Tarot, the paths of our challenges being able to be reflected in the procession and progression of the cards in the suits, and the various energies/meanings of the majors. I mean, if the tarot would not be able to follow the development of the down to earthly matters, then how could they speak to us so clearly in relation and in context of our queries? Again I have to agree with you, the Tarot is also ascending. We gain experience, and as we get older and wiser we chase our tails less, see what's so odd about doing that going round in circles. We get our heads clearer and gain more overview and transcend many of our mental, emotional, practical challenges. But that does not mean lots of patterns life evolves around get "recycled". Most notably the 4 suits progression accompanies our progression through these challenges/cycles. The Majors too, as they reflect also on our emotions, positions, states, layers etc whilst being somewhere in a of many paralel cycles.

Oh, those spreads that never work for you. I've never even bothered to try and make them work for me. Have more or less ignored royally and without regrets all spreads, all books on spreads, and the chapters on spreads in books have always remained 100% unread. Please please make up your own spread. The only spread I use that is a common one is the Past Present Future, but that's such a logical spread that one doesn't need a book to learn it. It sort of comes naturally when you have a pressing question.

So by all means Monk, the "noob", make up your own spreads according to your needs and desires and fancy and whim. As long as it's coherent and isn't muddled!!! And from the brief glance I took at your spreads, they look amazing (but that's on first glance - I'll give you more of my opinion when I take the time to ponder them tomorrow).

It's nice also that you can put your own view of God/It in your dealings with the Tarot. I think every single person on this earth, whether they know it or not, is looking for God - and yearn to unite again with that Source of all things, with that Sustaining Principle which is Creator and Created. We all find God/It in our own individual way. There are as many ways as there are human beings - as many ways as there are different DNAs and fingerprints. But we all have the same Source. It's all the same Life that courses through our veins. The Life in yours in no different to mine. Or Mary's. Or Don Juan's.

"..for God - and yearn to unite again with that Source of all things.." You really hit my nail there. My wanting to find my attitude towards God/"It that keeps everything in check" is VERY much so about getting reunited with God/"it". Dont get me wrong, life is challenging and it can be in places be a burden but I long not for death. Though coming to peace with my accepted understanding of 'creation' is my monumental life's task as it answers so much more than just that literal question. The more I understand, the more close I get to God/"it".

I thought I would respond to more of your post here, but as the rest is very Castaneda based, and I need time to think about him and the references you've provided and the info, I'll do this another time tomorrow no doubt.

Well, Castaneda is someone who showed me what was already inside me. It is his proposed model of mental development that interest me and that inspires me to this thread and proposed model for a spread and intrinsically also a bit of how I try to deal with the Tarot it self. It's shape, model, mechanics.

I don't like writing posts that touch on too many subjects at the same time. I get confused after a while.

[Diana]

Monk, I have a question. Why do you call the 4th Enemy "Old Age" in your spreads and not Death ?

Castaneda uses a harsh word there - Enemies. Makes it very much sound like there's a war going on !

[Monk]

Monk, I have a question. Why do you call the 4th Enemy "Old Age" in your spreads and not Death ?

Well, old age can be addressed, Death is the point of no return. What Castaneda calls the most "formidable of enemies" is however indeed death. While still capable we "deal" with old age though every day. Although it seems the lesser important enemy it is actually one that really demonstrates how the 4 enemies work agains you. How control slips away, how efforts get dulled when we get (really) older and start to care less. The preceding three enemies are different but we (as human) are susceptible to a same kind of forces working agains our efforts in working with the challenges our enemies.

Castaneda uses a harsh word there - Enemies. Makes it very much sound like there's a war going on !

Yeah I know, it sounds awful when speaking about it and I dont like using the word in this context. We' needn't though. We work with our fears, so called clarities and powers. No need to make it a war. lets leave the E word out of the discussion No need for that.
I'm thinking, indeed it needs a substitute word.. but which..I find challenge to be too common, there's so many.. these 4 need a tier-up term.
On second thought I imagine these 4 "meanies" sort of reside in our "shadow side" right? I've only briefly read into shadow work but suddenly realise there's a connection?

M

[Diana]

Monk, I have a question. Why do you call the 4th Enemy "Old Age" in your spreads and not Death ?

Well, old age can be addressed, Death is the point of no return. What Castaneda calls the most "formidable of enemies" is however indeed death. While still capable we "deal" with old age though every day. Although it seems the lesser important enemy it is actually one that really demonstrates how the 4 enemies work agains you. How control slips away, how efforts get dulled when we get (really) older and start to care less. The preceding three enemies are different but we (as human) are susceptible to a same kind of forces working agains our efforts in working with the challenges our enemies.

Castaneda uses a harsh word there - Enemies. Makes it very much sound like there's a war going on !

Yeah I know, it sounds awful when speaking about it and I dont like using the word in this context. We' needn't though. We work with our fears, so called clarities and powers. No need to make it a war. lets leave the E word out of the discussion No need for that.
I'm thinking, indeed it needs a substitute word.. but which..I find challenge to be too common, there's so many.. these 4 need a tier-up term.
On second thought I imagine these 4 "meanies" sort of reside in our "shadow side" right? I've only briefly read into shadow work but suddenly realise there's a connection?

M

Hmmm.. it still sounds a bit oddd to me that you changed Castaneda's Death into Old Age. But you must have your reasons and I respect them naturally. Only Old Age doesn't always precede death. One can die at the age of 1 year old or at 20 in a car crash. The Death he is talking about, is not more the belief in Death. Most spiritual teachings speak of death in those terms and not the actual physical death here on earth. It's the famous "the last enemy to overcome is death" in the bible.

Yes, enemies in this context is probably not the ideal term to use. It all depends on context. Perhaps one could call them Stages instead.

I've looked carefully at your spreads (didn't have the time to listen to the youtube video though - I will one day when I have adequate time.) I would love to be able to say all sorts of wise things about them, but honestly, they look perfect to me. You've given a helluva amount of thought and I cannot see any flaws or anything that sounds contradictory or illogical.

I do hope you're going to get a lot of these spreads. Seems to me you'll make leaps and bounds with these. I may experiment with them as well one day if I may. I'll all them the Monkey Readings.

[Monk]

Thank you for your feedback Diana, well appreciated.
I feel the spread is getting somewhere, though I think there's work to be done with in the second round of cards -stage 2-, these cards should reflect on the dynamics and movement between "phases". Stage 1, the first round of 9 cards describing how one's phases currently appear separately works for me, questions are quite clear and to the point. That really works. But where I still need to tweak is Stage 2, the questions that explore the passages between phases, cards 10-18. These questions I feel should work for each passage between stages. So also for the passage between phase "Power" and "Fear" Normally one would want to flow from fear to clarity, then on to power. But one wants to stay at the power phase for as much as possible challenges and issues in life right? But it is possible to fall back to fear from power.

EDIT: The new formulation of the questions/card meanings is now edited in the original schematics, post #1, to accommodate for this subtle dynamic. Leave the cyclic aspect of the spread in tact, allowing for standstill, but also allow for flow forward.

Diana, Castaneda does call the 4th "stage" "Old Age". Not Death. Minute 56, 44 secs. I think he does this because Death cannot be addressed and just happens. Like you said, at 1 or 99 years, it just happens. Old Age however is like the other 3 'stages' something we have to work with. Getting older is challenging for a lot of people, not all, but many people tend to just start to care less about a lot of stuff. The body also gets more tired, we slow down, as does our mind. It get harder and harder to fend off this last of stages.. It is also why I very deliberately placed Old Age in the middle and did not make it part of the path. We dance around old age, as long as possible. Until it is our time, the last of cycles has been completed, the dancing around old age is done, and dance the last dance with death, but only then.

p.s. Diana, you needn't watch the whole audio book, the passage in question is just 7 minutes, timeframe noted with the youtube link. It helps to understand my train of thought and choices in structure.

[Diana]

On second thought I imagine these 4 "meanies" sort of reside in our "shadow side" right? I've only briefly read into shadow work but suddenly realise there's a connection?

I would suppose that anything that concerns our ego is the "shadow" side. The dark side of the moon.

I'm not trying to challenge Castaneda, but why does he use the word "clarity" as a phase/enemy. I find it a bit hard to understand and you would be able to answer I'm sure.

[Monk]

On second thought I imagine these 4 "meanies" sort of reside in our "shadow side" right? I've only briefly read into shadow work but suddenly realise there's a connection?

I would suppose that anything that concerns our ego is the "shadow" side. The dark side of the moon.

I'm not trying to challenge Castaneda, but why does he use the word "clarity" as a phase/enemy. I find it a bit hard to understand and you would be able to answer I'm sure.

Castaneda sees one's acquired 'Clarity' as an enemy/phase not because of the profits but of its down sides.

The 'clarity' part of the cycle goes a bit like this:

-Clarity erases fear, and one thinks nothing is concealed. Clarity of mind dispels fear, but blinds as it forces a person to no longer doubt him/herself. The negative aspects of Clarity can lead a person to stop learning (and stop ascending) is what Castaneda is saying. This also illustrates why Castaneda labels this phase and the others as 'Enemies'; there are characteristics to these phases that work against us. Maybe we can attribute all of these to our shadow aspects? I'm saying this because of your comment about ego/shadow. Clarity that's blinding seems an (too big) ego issue working in the shadow against us.

These 'shadow aspects' have given me some matter to think about.

[Joan Marie]

Hey Monk, I have only just now started reading this thread, so I have a lot of catching up to do, but I just wanted to say a few things:

• What you've started here is remarkable.

• Everybody here is a "noob" in one way or another. This is why we have no "Beginners" section at CoT. We are all constantly learning our craft. That's what makes it fascinating.

• Nobody has all the answers, nobody.

• In the words of the great Julia Child, "Never apologise!"

That last one is kind of a joke, but only kind of. You can believe me when I say that anyone who has ever made an effort, respects the effort of others. Your work is 100% valid, every bit of it. Do not be afraid to own it.
It's like Don Juan says, get past the fear (doubt), then you can get past the deception of clarity and won't be seduced into power.

I want to include this 10-minute video here that someone once posted somewhere in this forum. I don't mean to side-track you, but I think it aligns with Castenenda and I have learned that it is helpful to look at things from different angles sometimes. It's about aligning the Chakras and it comes from a kid's show but is, oddly, one of the best explanations I've ever heard. To cleanse the Chakras you have to get past the same kinds of "enemies" Don Juan speaks of. BTW- I like how you have adjusted that to "phases." The Chakras too are phases.

[Monk]

Hey Monk, I have only just now started reading this thread, so I have a lot of catching up to do, but I just wanted to say a few things:

• What you've started here is remarkable.

• Everybody here is a "noob" in one way or another. This is why we have no "Beginners" section at CoT. We are all constantly learning our craft. That's what makes it fascinating.

• Nobody has all the answers, nobody.

• In the words of the great Julia Child, "Never apologise!"

That last one is kind of a joke, but only kind of. You can believe me when I say that anyone who has ever made an effort, respects the effort of others. Your work is 100% valid, every bit of it. Do not be afraid to own it.
It's like Don Juan says, get past the fear (doubt), then you can get past the deception of clarity and won't be seduced into power.

I want to include this 10-minute video here that someone once posted somewhere in this forum. I don't mean to side-track you, but I think it aligns with Castenenda and I have learned that it is helpful to look at things from different angles sometimes. It's about aligning the Chakras and it comes from a kid's show but is, oddly, one of the best explanations I've ever heard. To cleanse the Chakras you have to get past the same kinds of "enemies" Don Juan speaks of. BTW- I like how you have adjusted that to "phases." The Chakras too are phases.

Dear Joan Marie,

I greatly appreciate your supportive remarks. I hope you also find something of value in what I've been putting together.
Please let me know one day, when you find the time, what you think of my line of thought. I know its a lot to take in, so no rush.

Especially I'm still interested in getting some feedback on the experimental Tarot card super positions on the circle/triangle thing. (Image 1)
I did that particular exploration quite some time ago, so its put together in a time when my understanding of the Tarot was minimal. Still it is somehow at the basis of my endeavours. I'm eager to see how it holds up when being reflected upon by people who are more assured about the meaning/energies of the cards I placed in there.

Thank you also for the suggested vid on YT about the chakras, I will check it out as I like the link you found

Namaste
Monk

[Joan Marie]

The time for reading whether the guy we met at the party fancies us, or if we'll get the job we're looking for, will probably always have a place somewhere in the world of Tarot, but I feel that the time is now ripe for it to be used for bigger questions and I think Plato's Cave is a sign of this. There have been a few little tiny signs elsewhere on the internet, but Plato's Cave is the strongest sign so far.

I could not agree more with this.

Plato's Cave and threads like this. This is also the direction I see Tarot heading in and I am so happy (and proud) that we are breaking ground on it forum-wise.

[Joan Marie]

I'm not trying to challenge Castaneda, but why does he use the word "clarity" as a phase/enemy. I find it a bit hard to understand and you would be able to answer I'm sure.

Castaneda sees one's acquired 'Clarity' as an enemy/phase not because of the profits but of its down sides.

The 'clarity' part of the cycle goes a bit like this:

-Clarity erases fear, and one thinks nothing is concealed. Clarity of mind dispels fear, but blinds as it forces a person to no longer doubt him/herself. The negative aspects of Clarity can lead a person to stop learning (and stop ascending) is what Castaneda is saying. This also illustrates why Castaneda labels this phase and the others as 'Enemies'; there are characteristics to these phases that work against us. Maybe we can attribute all of these to our shadow aspects? I'm saying this because of your comment about ego/shadow. Clarity that's blinding seems an (too big) ego issue working in the shadow against us.

These 'shadow aspects' have given me some matter to think about.

I listened and understood it to mean something more like arrogance. Arrogance fosters a lot of unpleasant behaviours including condescension, and close-mindedness.
That was how I I took it. I also found "clarity" an odd choice as it is usually meant as a positive thing, but that makes his choice interesting because it starts off as positive but without care, degenerates. That's why it fools us and we don't see it.

[Joan Marie]

I just had a close look at your schematic (the first) image.

I thought it all made a lot of sense the way the cards flowed, however, I could easily see a switch with the Hermit and Death card.

Meaning, Death is more representative of Fear and the Hermit of Old Age.

That makes more sense to me.

[Monk]

I listened and understood it to mean something more like arrogance. Arrogance fosters a lot of unpleasant behaviours including condescension, and close-mindedness.
That was how I I took it. I also found "clarity" an odd choice as it is usually meant as a positive thing, but that makes his choice interesting because it starts off as positive but without care, degenerates. That's why it fools us and we don't see it.

Yes, arrogance Joan Marie: "...blinds as it forces a person to no longer doubt him/herself". I would consider it arrogant to presume we are all seeing, all knowing, all feeling, all foreseeing. Clarity can -I think- be achieved at moments, for an instant, for a particular image/insight/perspective. We see something clearly outlined. When Fear has been overcome the moments of clarity (epiphany) can rapidly succeed each other. It does not mean how ever we can assume we have the tools/powers/handles to see "everything" clearly. For that, I think, we need real "Power": Clarity about/over "how we see". Once we understand our inner workings (Temet Nosce), then clarity is to be trusted completely. I then figure we proceed on to the next phase Power. It would in this perspective be arrogant to presume that right off the bat after having one epiphany we have all our knowledge in check.

I just had a close look at your schematic (the first) image.

I thought it all made a lot of sense the way the cards flowed, however, I could easily see a switch with the Hermit and Death card.

Meaning, Death is more representative of Fear and the Hermit of Old Age.

That makes more sense to me.

The Hermit is a hard card for me to come to terms with, Tarot aside: someone seeking seclusion, disconnection makes me wonder their motivations for doing so. Also, being 'hermetically' shut off of other people, leads to a dynamic of inability to reflect with other people. It seems like a sort of fleeing to me. A person can be smart, really smart, brilliant..... but what does that all mean if one chooses to retract oneself from the equation? To me there is a connotation to the Hermit: inadaptability, and giving up by removing one self from the equation, it reeks like fear... Just some first thoughts I had with the Hermit, im open to other interpretations, gladly.. just my first impression stuck with me. Also, this interpretation makes sense to me in the palette of the many forces at work in a deck. Within the refractions that the Tarot casts it covers for me something essential I think.. Meh, learning still

About the death card: I sought to find corresponding motivational energies in the cards that reflected in the positions in the spread/schematic.
My line of thought was that the Death card is about an aspect of the universe that is omni present: all things experience wear. Everything ages as there are always on many plains processes going on that make things weathered, worn, less fertile, sick, broken, used. I mean just this universal energy that makes everything go round, stuff has to die and get broken for there to be renewal. In a sense the death card represents this energy.

I'd be interested though in your motivations as this has not ben explored by me in depth yet!

[Diana]

The Hermit is a hard card for me to come to terms with, Tarot aside: someone seeking seclusion, disconnection makes me wonder their motivations for doing so. Also, being 'hermetically' shut off of other people, leads to a dynamic of inability to reflect with other people. It seems like a sort of fleeing to me. A person can be smart, really smart, brilliant..... but what does that all mean if one chooses to retract oneself from the equation? To me there is a connotation to the Hermit: inadaptability, and giving up by removing one self from the equation. Just some first thoughts I had with the Hermit, im open to other interpretations, gladly.. just my first impression stuck with me. Also, this interpretation makes sense to me in the palette of the many forces at work in a deck. Within the refractions that the Tarot casts it covers for me something essential I think.. Meh, learning still

Hermit : from Late Latin eremita, from Greek eremites, literally "person of the desert," from eremia "a solitude, an uninhabited region, a waste," from erēmos "uninhabited, empty, desolate, bereft," from PIE *erem- "to rest, be quiet" (source also of Sanskrit ramate "to rest;" Lithuanian rimti "to be quiet," Gothic rimis "rest," Old Irish fo-rimim "to set, lay").

We all without exception need periods of calm, of rest. Some people go hiking in the mountains. Others go out to the desert to pray. Others meditate or chant or say mantras. Others listen to a symphony and get transported into heavenly realms.

That is all that the Hermit is. The Man who goes to rest and to seek the light within to restore himself. And when he returns from the desert he can share that light with others.

The Hermit is also Diogenes, the Greek philosopher called the Cynic, who walked around Athens in broad daylight with a lantern claiming he was looking for an honest man. But of course the other great anectode told about him is when Alexander the Great greeted him and asked if he wanted anything, "Yes," said Diogenes, "stand a little out of my sun.". That's the best comeback I've ever heard. He also lived in a barrel which makes him the coolest guy in the world !

One mustn't take the name "The Hermit" literally. Or any of the names of the cards for that matter. It's an Allegory.

The Hermit gets his light from the Sun arcanum by the way. And the Sun is allegorical too. Maybe Diogenes asked Alexander to stand out a little of his sun for a reason...

The Hermit doesn't disconnect. He connects. He's the channel in a way of the Light which is symbolised by the lantern.

Another aspect of him is the Pilgrim.

[Joan Marie]

I'd be interested though in your motivations as this has not ben explored by me in depth yet!

I'll start with the Hermit. Being sort of old myself, I can say that one does tend to retreat somewhat, but this is not out of fear or avoidance. It's a real need for reflection, and not just a need but a real interest in the kinds of things that one can only study and contemplate in solitude. It doesn't have be be TOTAL solitude, but relative to younger days, it almost seems like it.

As one ages you begin to realise that there is so much you want to know and explore. Your books and hobbies become more important, more interesting. And it isn't just socialising that disturbs that focus, it's all the noise and bustle that becomes distracting. Being the Hermit doesn't have to be meant in strict terms, it's just a withdrawal into a quieter more contemplative place most of the time. It doesn't mean no social interaction, no partying. It just means a lot less.

I see people my age who fear this, who push themselves to keep the party going because they don't want to "feel" old. But that party is not as interesting as it once was (and they know it). It was great at one time, but at some point, it's just repetitive and there isn't much to learn there anymore. The party makes me feel old. The solitude and study become what's stimulating and inspiring and make me forget my age.

Then eventually, at some point, you really are more alone, and not by choice. Either your health restricts you, or the health of your friends or partner. hearing goes, eyesight. People die, there are just fewer people in your circle and fewer chances to interact. And you better be able to handle that. You need a solid inner life at this point or you're in big trouble.

So, Hermit!

As for Death being more associated with Fear, well, isn't that always the problem? Fear of change, fear of the unknown? Isn't Death always represented with skulls and such? It represents (and is represented by) all the things we fear the most. The Death card is about irreversible change, crossing over, crossing a line, something permanent, no return. And we tend to avoid that at all costs.

I just thought of something my son once said to me about how he is from the last generation of male who knows the feeling of calling a girl on her home phone for the first time (land-line, no texting!) and her dad answers, or SHE answers and you have to speak. Absolutely terrifying. Your throat closes as you say your name and you live or die on her tone of voice when she responds. Fear of the unknown is real. And many can't face it.

That's the Death card to me, it's isn't just about "Change" like they always say, it's the fear of that change and how or if you are going to overcome it.

So that was my thinking.

[Monk]

The Hermit is a hard card for me to come to terms with, Tarot aside: someone seeking seclusion, disconnection makes me wonder their motivations for doing so. Also, being 'hermetically' shut off of other people, leads to a dynamic of inability to reflect with other people. It seems like a sort of fleeing to me. A person can be smart, really smart, brilliant..... but what does that all mean if one chooses to retract oneself from the equation? To me there is a connotation to the Hermit: inadaptability, and giving up by removing one self from the equation. Just some first thoughts I had with the Hermit, im open to other interpretations, gladly.. just my first impression stuck with me. Also, this interpretation makes sense to me in the palette of the many forces at work in a deck. Within the refractions that the Tarot casts it covers for me something essential I think.. Meh, learning still

Hermit : from Late Latin eremita, from Greek eremites, literally "person of the desert," from eremia "a solitude, an uninhabited region, a waste," from erēmos "uninhabited, empty, desolate, bereft," from PIE *erem- "to rest, be quiet" (source also of Sanskrit ramate "to rest;" Lithuanian rimti "to be quiet," Gothic rimis "rest," Old Irish fo-rimim "to set, lay").

We all without exception need periods of calm, of rest. Some people go hiking in the mountains. Others go out to the desert to pray. Others meditate or chant or say mantras. Others listen to a symphony and get transported into heavenly realms.

That is all that the Hermit is. The Man who goes to rest and to seek the light within to restore himself. And when he returns from the desert he can share that light with others.

The Hermit is also Diogenes, the Greek philosopher called the Cynic, who walked around Athens in broad daylight with a lantern claiming he was looking for an honest man. But of course the other great anectode told about him is when Alexander the Great greeted him and asked if he wanted anything, "Yes," said Diogenes, "stand a little out of my sun.". That's the best comeback I've ever heard. He also lived in a barrel which makes him the coolest guy in the world !

One mustn't take the name "The Hermit" literally. Or any of the names of the cards for that matter. It's an Allegory.

The Hermit gets his light from the Sun arcanum by the way. And the Sun is allegorical too. Maybe Diogenes asked Alexander to stand out a little of his sun for a reason...

The Hermit doesn't disconnect. He connects. He's the channel in a way of the Light which is symbolised by the lantern.

Another aspect of him is the Pilgrim.

Darn, you are a library and I envy a bit you for that. I rest my case and will consider in light of this new insight a reworking of the schematic.
In light though of thís interpretation of the Hermit; I fear it wouldn't fit the position at fear. I placed it at this position as it should reflect what we become, get reduced to when we give in to fear and abandon the path to becoming a person of knowledge. (A literal Hermit would have worked..)

@Joan Marie: Im having second thoughts on the death card.. maybe Death ís supposed to go at the Fear position. As when we stop at fear, never break out of it then the path will never pass Clarity and Power instead lead straight to the end. Old age needs a significator too though I feel..
Hmm conflicting thoughts..
Thanks tho both, just pluck at those loose threads please

[Monk]

I'd be interested though in your motivations as this has not ben explored by me in depth yet!

I'll start with the Hermit. Being sort of old myself, I can say that one does tend to retreat somewhat, but this is not out of fear or avoidance. It's a real need for reflection, and not just a need but a real interest in the kinds of things that one can only study and contemplate in solitude. It doesn't have be be TOTAL solitude, but relative to younger days, it almost seems like it.

As one ages you begin to realise that there is so much you want to know and explore. Your books and hobbies become more important, more interesting. And it isn't just socialising that disturbs that focus, it's all the noise and bustle that becomes distracting. Being the Hermit doesn't have to be meant in strict terms, it's just a withdrawal into a quieter more contemplative place most of the time. It doesn't mean no social interaction, no partying. It just means a lot less.

I see people my age who fear this, who push themselves to keep the party going because they don't want to "feel" old. But that party is not as interesting as it once was (and they know it). It was great at one time, but at some point, it's just repetitive and there isn't much to learn there anymore. The party makes me feel old. The solitude and study become what's stimulating and inspiring and make me forget my age.

Then eventually, at some point, you really are more alone, and not by choice. Either your health restricts you, or the health of your friends or partner. hearing goes, eyesight. People die, there are just fewer people in your circle and fewer chances to interact. And you better be able to handle that. You need a solid inner life at this point or you're in big trouble.

So, Hermit!

As for Death being more associated with Fear, well, isn't that always the problem? Fear of change, fear of the unknown? Isn't Death always represented with skulls and such? It represents (and is represented by) all the things we fear the most. The Death card is about irreversible change, crossing over, crossing a line, something permanent, no return. And we tend to avoid that at all costs.

I just thought of something my son once said to me about how he is from the last generation of male who knows the feeling of calling a girl on her home phone for the first time (land-line, no texting!) and her dad answers, or SHE answers and you have to speak. Absolutely terrifying. Your throat closes as you say your name and you live or die on her tone of voice when she responds. Fear of the unknown is real. And many can't face it.

That's the Death card to me, it's isn't just about "Change" like they always say, it's the fear of that change and how or if you are going to overcome it.

So that was my thinking.

Full circle, your and Diana's inputs are so striking. I will def change the positions in the schematic in post #1 now. No discussion you're both so right.
EDIT: Schematic + position list edited for Death/Hermit swap
Thank You!

[Diana]

Joan Marie: Im having second thoughts on the death card.. maybe Death ís supposed to go at the Fear position. As when we stop at fear, never break out of it then the path will never pass Clarity and Power instead lead straight to the end. Old age needs a significator too though I feel..
Hmm conflicting thoughts..

As I have come to understand it, every single little fear we have - even the tiniest twinge - has at its root a fear of death.

And the Hermit is a very nice signifier for Old Age. The Visconti Sforza deck depicts the Hermit as Father Time.

[Monk]

Joan Marie: Im having second thoughts on the death card.. maybe Death ís supposed to go at the Fear position. As when we stop at fear, never break out of it then the path will never pass Clarity and Power instead lead straight to the end. Old age needs a significator too though I feel..
Hmm conflicting thoughts..

As I have come to understand it, every single little fear we have - even the tiniest twinge - has at its root a fear of death.

And the Hermit is a very nice signifier for Old Age. The Visconti Sforza deck depicts the Hermit as Father Time.


Father Time visconti sforza.jpg

This is why we need more decks.. The answers are between them.

[Diana]

This is why we need more decks.. The answers are between them.

Diana checks that her TdM is safely tucked away in her little bag and goes off muttering "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

LE MAT isis.jpg (119.32 KiB) Viewed 2907 times

And just a little snippet : There's an old proverb of the Middle Ages (I think) that goes : When one sups with the Devil, it is better to use a long spoon. (The stick of Le Mat/Fool is a long spoon.)