Cult of Tarot Forum

How do you all feel about them?

I'm discovering that I'm not a fan. I feel like every card heads this vast range of potential, and a renamed card is pulling the focus to one aspect of what that card can mean (and, usually, a more palatable aspect) which kind of narrows the card's potential for me.

Libra wrote: ↑18 Dec 2019, 16:18 How do you all feel about them?

I'm discovering that I'm not a fan. I feel like every card heads this vast range of potential, and a renamed card is pulling the focus to one aspect of what that card can mean (and, usually, a more palatable aspect) which kind of narrows the card's potential for me.

Could you give some examples?

Libra wrote: ↑18 Dec 2019, 16:18 How do you all feel about them?

I'm discovering that I'm not a fan. I feel like every card heads this vast range of potential, and a renamed card is pulling the focus to one aspect of what that card can mean (and, usually, a more palatable aspect) which kind of narrows the card's potential for me.

Hi Libra!

Belenus (in the sign of Libra no less!) here.

I guess it depends on which decks you are talking about. If you are talking about the Waite-Smith (often times referred to as the rws) and its clones - that is (un)fortunately part of the cloning process. As each card-maker wants to make their deck unique - but not radically so different from the WS - yet different enough to get folks to buy it - renaming is a common occurrence. I think it is in large part due to marketing, and giving a deck its "uniqueness." There are of course other reasons, e.g., the deck creator has a personal and different understanding of that particular card.

Now in regards to the traditional tarot, e.g., Tarot de Marseille and its cousins, and/or Sola Busca, Minchiate, Visconti-Sforza, etc., - those decks came from different regions, languages, and different lines of playing cards. Their different names were a result of different countries and their respective languages, and traditions of their origins. Thus In the TdM (Tarot de Marseille) Major XII is named "Le Pendu" (the suspended one) whereas in Italian decks XII is often referred to as "L'Apesso' (the traitor). BUT most importantly in both decks the meaning is exactly the same - just different languages according to the people using the deck (and of course designing it.)

Cheers,
Belenus

Libra wrote: ↑18 Dec 2019, 16:18 a renamed card is pulling the focus to one aspect of what that card can mean... which kind of narrows the card's potential for me.

I agree with that but there are a lot of (mostly visual) readers who buy a s**t ton of decks and are heavily influenced by things like that. They aren't necessarily carrying around a vast storehouse of the cards' different implications that they can call upon absent an external stimulus, so having a deck that calls to mind one particular aspect of the card can be useful for them.

I'm pretty sure it's a situation where a small minority of readers are buying the majority of the decks. Things like renamed cards probably appeal to those folks more than someone like you or me.

Charlie Brown wrote: ↑18 Dec 2019, 20:41 I'm pretty sure it's a situation where a small minority of readers are buying the majority of the decks. Things like renamed cards probably appeal to those folks more than someone like you or me.

What about Crowley's Adjustment, Lust, Art, Aeon, and Universe cards?

Those are pretty much "canon" now aren't they?

Joan Marie wrote: ↑18 Dec 2019, 22:20

Charlie Brown wrote: ↑18 Dec 2019, 20:41 I'm pretty sure it's a situation where a small minority of readers are buying the majority of the decks. Things like renamed cards probably appeal to those folks more than someone like you or me.

What about Crowley's Adjustment, Lust, Art, Aeon, and Universe cards?

Those are pretty much "canon" now aren't they?

This post was edited in one paragraph which made no sense at all - some odd copy/pasting I think.

I also wanted to bring up the Thoth.

There are three major traditions in the Tarot. I'd go so far as to say that they are the only three traditions. Tarot of Marseilles, Rider Waite Smith and the Thoth. I think it very unlikely that a new tradition will appear for a long time... it would be foolish to say never. But it's unlikely any of us will see this happening, if and when it does, even the younger members. These three traditions are firmly established and are fixed for a long time to come.

The Oswald Wirth is perhaps a tradition. But I consider it to be a bit more of an offshoot.

So the differences in names between these three traditions is normal and natural and appropriate.

(Waite switching 8 and 11 however - that's sort of like a crime against humanity and is not appropriate at all. He's wreaked havoc the silly man. And there's no way to fix this. It's a broken piece in the Tarot tradition.)

The decks that are inspired by the three traditions but veer from them are in my view more Fantasy tarots. If they are viewed as such, then I think it's okay for people to change the names of the cards.

I would never use them myself though. I don't want Death to be called Transformation or Butterfly, or the Hermit to be called the Sage or the Old Bear.

I'm not using the word Fantasy in a derogatory way. Fantasy is not a bad thing in itself. I like fantasy novels for instance.

But if I were the Master Librarian of the Tarot Library in the Sky, I'd have a special section for Fantasy tarots such as these decks that do not adhere to the Tradition.

Come to think of it, I think I'd put a LOT of decks in the Fantasy section. Not only those that change the names of cards.

Joan Marie wrote: ↑18 Dec 2019, 22:20

Charlie Brown wrote: ↑18 Dec 2019, 20:41 I'm pretty sure it's a situation where a small minority of readers are buying the majority of the decks. Things like renamed cards probably appeal to those folks more than someone like you or me.

What about Crowley's Adjustment, Lust, Art, Aeon, and Universe cards?

Those are pretty much "canon" now aren't they?

To be honest, the Thoth didn't even cross my mind. I was thinking about these novelty decks that pop up everywhere. The Thoth does strike me as a little different in that Crowley was trying to make a complete system that would supplant traditional tarot practice, which he saw as obsolete (belonging to the last Aeon). He also isn't trying, with ART, for example, to focus on an aspect of Temperance, my sense is that he would see it as a different card or, perhaps, a correction. He certainly wasn't a whatever-works-for-you/Different-Strokes type.

I took Libra to mean things like calling The Lovers "Marriage" or something like that.

Now that I think about it, the Tinker's Damn does it rather effectively. In that case though, it seems necessary because that deck is really trying to work with aspects of Thoth, RWS, and Marseille.

Joan Marie wrote: ↑18 Dec 2019, 17:12

Libra wrote: ↑18 Dec 2019, 16:18 How do you all feel about them?

I'm discovering that I'm not a fan. I feel like every card heads this vast range of potential, and a renamed card is pulling the focus to one aspect of what that card can mean (and, usually, a more palatable aspect) which kind of narrows the card's potential for me.

Could you give some examples?

Death often gets called Transformation or Rebirth, or I've got a deck that calls Judgement "Life Renewed". I'll often find these changes interesting in that they invite me to explore that aspect of the card in greater detail, but in actual use of the deck, I feel limited by the rename because the imagery is adapted to fit that one aspect and it usually doesn't leave room for any other areas of the cards original meanings to shine through.

Libra wrote: ↑19 Dec 2019, 20:01
Death often gets called Transformation or Rebirth, or I've got a deck that calls Judgement "Life Renewed". I'll often find these changes interesting in that they invite me to explore that aspect of the card in greater detail, but in actual use of the deck, I feel limited by the rename because the imagery is adapted to fit that one aspect and it usually doesn't leave room for any other areas of the cards original meanings to shine through.

Well, I reckon if the image on the card is good enough, that should be enough. If one doesn't get the idea from the picture - then it's not a Tarot of a very high quality. And any further explanations can be given in the LWB or from info or pdfs downloadable from the website.

Interesting question that you asked when you started up this thread.

Diana wrote: ↑19 Dec 2019, 21:16 Well, I reckon if the image on the card is good enough, that should be enough. If one doesn't get the idea from the picture - then it's not a Tarot of a very high quality.

Oh, I disagree with that, in the Marseille, for example, I think it's essential to know that the card is called Temperance.

Charlie Brown wrote: ↑19 Dec 2019, 23:12

Oh, I disagree with that, in the Marseille, for example, I think it's essential to know that the card is called Temperance.

You're quite right. When I wrote what I wrote, I said to myself "there's a huge flaw in what you've just said." I didn't think to go back later to look for what it is. It's not just Temperance, it's all the others too or almost all. The grim reaper is sort of obvious for example.

I have found that I really appreciate deck creators who try to excavate some of the gender essentialism and hierarchy from the tarot. What do we mean when we say that something is masculine or feminine? What do we mean when we say that something is king-like or queen-like? De-hierarchy-ing the courts and de-gendering the Emperor and Empress have really opened up those cards for me.

i prefer decks that remove the names altogether. if you're going to expand the meaning of the card with different aspects, why not keep it "expanded" instead of locking it down again into a new name?