Help with the Devil card

[BlueStar]

I thought I understood this card, but when it turns up in readings I sometimes find it difficult to grasp the meaning. It's not often that it turns up, so it's not one I've interpreted as much as others in the deck.

Recently I did a celtic cross reading regarding how someone would do in an undertaking in their life over the next year or so. The outcome card was the Devil and it stumped me. Wasn't sure how to interpret it in that position.

I'd love to hear anyone's thoughts on what it could indicate in that position. Of course a reading can be different according to reader and context, but any thoughts, ideas, insights would be greatly appreciated:)

[Charlie Brown]

It seems like people resort to addiction as a default for this card, but I don't agree with that so much. I think if you start with the idea that the Devil is a oppressive, degrading force, then it's easier to put it into context. I don't really know the project or the rest of the reading, but I'd hazard a guess that this thing is going to be a slog that it's going to overwhelm the querent in some capacity and may lead to some pretty bad consequences.

[Diana]

Hard to say without seeing the whole reading. What was your first impression when you saw this card ? The very first "emotion" or feeling that you had. However crazy it may sound.

Devil is also often our ego getting in the way which prevents us from seeing the true picture.

But really, it's hard to pin down its interpretation without the other cards. And the reader's first impression is often the right one.

[BlueStar]

Thanks both for your thoughts:) I think I need to think a bit more about what the card means to me, the different ways it could be interpreted. It's not one I'm used to drawing in a spread, so I'm less familiar with it than others.

[Diana]

BlueStar, I had a feeling earlier when I was reading your post. Couldn't put a finger on it. It came to me just now. Maybe it is a strong warning for this person not to go against his or her better judgement. If this fits with the rest of the cards, it may be something in that line. Also not to get taken in by people who make grand promises, i.e. not to be led up the garden path.

[Monk]

Blue Star,

I doubted quite a bit posting the following as it might complicate stuff even more for you.

Ór it may inspire you ?

I know I was (am still) also having trouble explaining the Devil card. I believe that really engaging the subject from many angles gives one a wider view on the questions in life. Just read a lot ! And you'll see he light one day.

Here's my two cents, a very interesting read:

https://hermetic.com/osiris/levibaphomet

Best
Monk

[tarotman101]

I personally think this person may be getting in their own way. And I see the devil card as temptation and the shadow side. So this could end up being self-sabotage or some darker qualities that have been rejected within himself may come spilling out while he's trying to achieve his undertaking. It could really derail things.

[Ailsaek]

For what it’s worth, my default reading for the Devil is “bondage to the material”.

[Diana]

For what it’s worth, my default reading for the Devil is “bondage to the material”.

Absolutely. One of my "main" interpretations as well.

[Belenus]

I come strongly from the Tarot de Marseille tradition, so anything and everything I offer may not apply dependent upon the deck you are using. I believe that different decks require different meanings for the same numbered Major. For example the Magician in the RWS has nothing to do whatsoever with the similarly numbered Major (Le Bateleur) in the TdM.

So for me Major XV (Devil) is about impulse, passion, and desire: our unregulated, non-socially conforming, pure erotic/libidinous nature - uninhibited by religious (or social) norms. Why? Because Major XV is the decimal pair of Major V (The Pope). These 2 cards are an interpretive unit, just as all decimal pairs are. Thus one card of a decimal pair must always be interpreted in light of the other card of the decimal pair. The Pope represents among many, many other things - the sublimation, even repression and suppression of our most basic human urges, desires, passions, needs, and expressions. Remember how one of THE major concerns of just about every religion is the control of our sexuality and desires (be they sexual, gustatory, material, etc.) Are the 2 bound figures enslaved and addicted to desires? Or is the Devil freeing them from the rigid control of religion and social norms? Both are equally present in this most ambiguous card of the Majors.

Of course interpreting a card in the Outcome position of a Celtic Cross is like being one of the several blind persons feeling a different part of the elephant and come to a sound conclusion about the nature of elephants. LOL In other words the CC is guided by not only the querent's question, but the Outcome card MUST be interpreted as directly related to each of the other 9 cards in the spread. So unfortunately I can not apply Devil possible interpretations without the essential context of question and the other cards in their positions.

[Diana]

So for me Major XV (Devil) is about impulse, passion, and desire: our unregulated, non-socially conforming, pure erotic/libidinous nature - uninhibited by religious (or social) norms. Why? Because Major XV is the decimal pair of Major V (The Pope). These 2 cards are an interpretive unit, just as all decimal pairs are. Thus one card of a decimal pair must always be interpreted in light of the other card of the decimal pair. The Pope represents among many, many other things - the sublimation, even repression and suppression of our most basic human urges, desires, passions, needs, and expressions. Remember how one of THE major concerns of just about every religion is the control of our sexuality and desires (be they sexual, gustatory, material, etc.) Are the 2 bound figures enslaved and addicted to desires? Or is the Devil freeing them from the rigid control of religion and social norms? Both are equally present in this most ambiguous card of the Majors.

I wish you'd make a special thread about this in the appropriate section of the board. I think this could really start an interesting discussion. There's so much to say about this pair of cards, and here it would get lost or maybe not seen by people who're looking for specific TdM stuff. So I don't want to respond here. Your post above would make a great introduction. We could then go on to discuss the other pairs.

[Belenus]

I wish you'd make a special thread about this in the appropriate section of the board. I think this could really start an interesting discussion. There's so much to say about this pair of cards, and here it would get lost or maybe not seen by people who're looking for specific TdM stuff. So I don't want to respond here. Your post above would make a great introduction. We could then go on to discuss the other pairs.

Thanks Diana. I have attempted the posting in TdM group. I hope I did it correctly. I am still very new to all the techniques of this forum (plus laboring under a recovery from a very difficult tooth extraction.)

all my best,
Belenus

[Natural Mystic Guide]

Here is what I wrote about for XV Major Arcana card 'The Devil' or sometimes I call it Mammon which is originally a neutral word meaning the material world from Aramaic and earlier from the Hebrew. This was for my Tarot Netivot newsletter that comes out every lunar week.

"The Major Arcana card XV is associated with the Solstice. This is the liberation from addiction card! The imagery and associations of this card can be scary, but I put a very positive twist on this card. Solstices are one of those stop in your tracks and re-evaluate moments. Here we are invited to consider our habits and how we relate to all of creation and to ourselves.

Envision a human soul as a sphere with the Seed of Life webbing superimposed upon it. Each point is a place of intersection with other beings. Ideally, we are in right relationship with All That Is — we are existing in mature, interdependent relationships filled with compassion. Too often in our confusion, our relationships with others have been tainted with a desire to subjugate, to manipulate, and to take. We are continually growing in our capacity to be more loving. Take this opportunity to take a long, hard look at any areas in our own lives where we might come even closer to an ideal of positive interconnection."

In my Tarot world, there are no 'bad' cards. I do use reversals, if I am not doing an elemental reading. All upright cards have very positive meanings. A reversed card indicates an area for growth or an area of challenge.

[Diana]

Here is what I wrote about for XV Major Arcana card 'The Devil' or sometimes I call it Mammon which is originally a neutral word meaning the material world from Aramaic and earlier from the Hebrew. This was for my Tarot Netivot newsletter that comes out every lunar week.

Where can one subscribe to your Tarot Netivot newsletter ? I love it that you do it every lunar week. What was your motivation to choose this period of time? And why the name Netivot ? (Sorry for all these questions!!)

I've always liked the word Mammon. I'm glad to know where it comes from so thanks for the explanation. I always tell myself that one cannot "serve both God and Mammon". I realised it meant the material world, but didn't know the origin of this word. Would it not be more correct to say "materiality ?" I don't know, but that's what's buzzed through my mind when I read your post.

I don't know anything about lunar weeks. So I've just bookmarked two sites that look interesting to look at as soon as I have time. So thanks for leading me onto some new discoveries. That's what I love also about the Tarot. I have always called it my own little University. The Tarot has taught me so much about history, geography, religions, philosophy, mythology.... and I could go on till the cows come home. There's no end to what the Tarot can give us if we care too look, and on what journeys it will take us. They're all delicious too - that's also what's so great about the Tarot. Every day there's something new and exciting to explore.

"The Major Arcana card XV is associated with the Solstice. This is the liberation from addiction card! The imagery and associations of this card can be scary, but I put a very positive twist on this card. Solstices are one of those stop in your tracks and re-evaluate moments. Here we are invited to consider our habits and how we relate to all of creation and to ourselves.

Why is the Arcana XV associated with the Solstice ?

Envision a human soul as a sphere with the Seed of Life webbing superimposed upon it. Each point is a place of intersection with other beings. Ideally, we are in right relationship with All That Is — we are existing in mature, interdependent relationships filled with compassion. Too often in our confusion, our relationships with others have been tainted with a desire to subjugate, to manipulate, and to take. We are continually growing in our capacity to be more loving. Take this opportunity to take a long, hard look at any areas in our own lives where we might come even closer to an ideal of positive interconnection."

A very nice take on the Devil. Does this come mostly from your own musings or is is inspired from something and then developed ?

In my Tarot world, there are no 'bad' cards. I do use reversals, if I am not doing an elemental reading. All upright cards have very positive meanings. A reversed card indicates an area for growth or an area of challenge.

There are neither good nor bad cards in the Tarot to be even more precise, I'm sure you'll agree. I think instead of the awkward "positive" and "negative" which we use for the want of a better word, it's maybe just more practical to say "upright" and "reversed". They're always neutral to start out with though. It's we who weave the story into them.

[Belenus]

Diana,

You asked why Major XV is associated with the Solstice. It is a convoluted history, primarily because I believe the Golden Dawn and its adherents (Waite, etc.) convoluted the tarot when it tried to make tarot match up (correspond) to astrology. THUS the dreaded changing VIII and XI - because they wanted La Force to match up with Leo and La Justice to match Libra, just as Leo precedes Libra in natural progression of Zodiac signs. IMPPO - once you start messing with the system all kinds of things begin to unravel! LOL

So back to Solstice. Here is the convoluted path: Arcanum XV was associated with Capricorn; and by association Saturn the ruler of Capricorn. Why? One possible reason is that in some traditions Saturn is referred to as the Great Malefic (or Great Devil.) (Side note the Lesser Malefic, Little Devil was assigned to Mars.) The actual imagery of Arcanum XV in the RWS (notice it is not in other tarots e.g. the TdM) is associated with Saturn as Great Malefic. The Sun enters the Zodiac sign of Capricorn on/about December 21st - the Winter Solstice. Hence XV = Winter Solstice.

Now, many will find, as they get to know me, that 35+ years as a professional astrologer and tarot reader - that I completely dismiss (for entirely professional reasons) the astrological correspondences of the GD, or any other for that matter, to the tarot. IMPPO, they are 2 non-related, entirely different traditions, which simply do not "correspond" as they were never meant to from the beginning. Even the unusual - but highly readable - Minchiate tarots give completely separate cards for all 12 signs of the Zodiac, because it was clear from the very earliest tarot traditions that Capricorn does not correspond (no matter how much pounding a round peg into a square hole) to Arcanum XV, nor Leo with Arcanum XI, Libra with Arcanum VIII, etc., etc. In the Minchiate the 12 Zodiac signs, were given their own pride of place, because they could never be absorbed in, nor represented by one of the other Majors. Its like mixing oil and water eh? LOL

Of course, as in all things, other may respectfully differ in whether astrology can, or should be, corresponded to tarot cards.

Respectfully,
Belenus

P.S. I so LOVE the Minciate tarot because in its Majors, it includes not only the 12 Zodiac signs, but also separate cards for the 4 Elements, and separate cards for the 4 Cardinal Virtues.

[Natural Mystic Guide]

Thanks so much for the questions, Diana. Curiosity is such a lovely trait. It keeps us vital and young.

To subscribe to my free Tarot Netivot newsletter, simply sign up on my website: www.naturalmysticguide.com or pm me your email address and I shall put you on the list. Jewish spirituality centers on the lunar calendar -- as do many other traditions. It also makes a lot of sense for women as, if menstruating, our bodies follow the lunar cycle.

Use of the word "materiality" for Mammon also makes a lot of sense.

I am not familiar with astrological correspondences -- thank you so much to Belenus -- I give credit to Julie Cuccia Watts who first gave me the idea of assigning each Tarot card to the wheel of the year. It set me on a very interesting path. She chose XV 'The Devil' to correspond with the Winter Solstice. I agreed with her on this one, although we deviate on cards. I like the close juxtaposition of the Winter Solstice (in the northern hemisphere) with the Christmas holiday. The way excessive commercialism/materialism that largely colors this time of year seems a good fit for Mammon. Again, Mammon is a neutral, although it has come to take on a negative connotation.

Thanks for the interesting dialogue

[Diana]

Thanks so much for the questions, Diana. Curiosity is such a lovely trait. It keeps us vital and young.

So then can I assume that your not answering my question as to why your newsletter is called "Netivot" was an oversight, and not because you thought I was being too nosy ?

To subscribe to my free Tarot Netivot newsletter, simply sign up on my website: www.naturalmysticguide.com or pm me your email address and I shall put you on the list. Jewish spirituality centers on the lunar calendar -- as do many other traditions. It also makes a lot of sense for women as, if menstruating, our bodies follow the lunar cycle.

I've signed up for your newsletter! I recently read some very interesting articles and blog posts and theories regarding Judaic influences in the Tarot. They were very interesting but I didn't have to time to read them very productively. Also some months ago I read quite a bit about Jewish feminism. But I'm clueless about Judaism so I'm always grateful for an opportunity to get some more understanding and knowledge.

What peaked my interest in those issues was due to the Papesse in the TdM. I was thinking of all the people she could represent - in all the mythologies and legends - and then I started reading up on Miriam, the sister of Moses and first prophetess in the book Exodus (but of course you know that). I spent quite a few days with her and all that surrounded her.

And I fell in love with Miriam. And decided, and I think nothing could make me change my mind - I'll take this decision to my grave - that if I wanted to make some kind of TdM inspired deck one day, that she would represent La Papesse. Oh, when she sang the Song of the Sea, leading her sisters in a dance with their timbrels.... oh, I pictured the scene, I fell into it almost literally - I was transported into another realm, and I danced with them too in their wild abandonment and joy.

Then Miriam the prophet, Aaron's sister, took a timbrel in her hand, and all the women followed her, with timbrels and dancing.
Miriam sang to them:
Sing to the Lord,
for he is highly exalted.
Both horse and driver
he has hurled into the sea.

I bet you she sang a lot more than that. I'd be interested to know more about the Hebraic text is and if so which subtle differences aren't rendered in the English translation.

I bought a book called "Denying Her Voice : The Figure of Miriam in Ancient Jewish Literature". It's the next book on my reading list. My main source and foundations for my spiritual pathway is the Bible - the Old and New Testament. And I've always yearned for the women of this great book to reclaim Their Voice one day. And they will. They are not dead. All women/the feminine are Miriam. And we can hear them singing if we have ears to hear. And we can hear the timbrels too and what a sweet sound that is.

Again, Mammon is a neutral, although it has come to take on a negative connotation.

Thanks for the interesting dialogue

Yes, it's neutral. People have forgotten that. I was listening to a talk by a Sufi master and he was saying that so much has been forgotten... but that it goes much much deeper than that : we have forgotten that we have forgotten.

And thank you also for the interesting dialogue. And thanks once again for joining us here at CoT.

[Natural Mystic Guide]

And I fell in love with Miriam. And decided, and I think nothing could make me change my mind - I'll take this decision to my grave - that if I wanted to make some kind of TdM inspired deck one day, that she would represent La Papesse. Oh, when she sang the Song of the Sea, leading her sisters in a dance with their timbrels.... oh, I pictured the scene, I fell into it almost literally - I was transported into another realm, and I danced with them too in their wild abandonment and joy.

I bought a book called "Denying Her Voice : The Figure of Miriam in Ancient Jewish Literature". It's the next book on my reading list. My main source and foundations for my spiritual pathway is the Bible - the Old and New Testament. And I've always yearned for the women of this great book to reclaim Their Voice one day. And they will. They are not dead. All women/the feminine are Miriam. And we can hear them singing if we have ears to hear. And we can hear the timbrels too and what a sweet sound that is.

This is so exciting. Thank you, Diana, for sharing about your mystical experiences with Miriam. Never doubt such experiences because indeed Miriam is alive and well.

The word netivot from the Hebrew means powerful feminine archetype. I am an ordained priestess with Kohenet, the Hebrew Priestess Institute. One of the core teachings -- in a process of reclaiming and celebrating female leadership as priestess in this tradition is the teaching about 13 Netivot. One of these is Neviah which does represent Miriam and such attibutes as prophesy, speaking out, and creativity in music and dance.

I love this stuff. Feel free to bounce these kind of ideas off me anytime that you like and do consider me a resource/chaveruta (study partner.

Sorry to be tardy in responding. My life can be quite demanding and I am still trying to figure out how this forum works -- I am a bit tech challenged. Thanks!

[Diana]

This is so exciting. Thank you, Diana, for sharing about your mystical experiences with Miriam. Never doubt such experiences because indeed Miriam is alive and well.

You may be excited, but I reckon I'm even more. It's like my fairy godmother has deposited a beautiful golden package in my room.

And your recognition of what I experienced touched me. More than you can know. Much much more. Although now I come to think of it, maybe you of all people would be able to know this.

Miriam has never left me since that experience actually. It's like she's calling to me. In fact, very much like in the song "I'm Calling You" from Baghdad Café : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCLpLWcX2cg (I frequently give links to youtube songs on this forum because the Tarot always reminds me of music. So if it reminds me of music, I tell myself that it must also be music.)

The word netivot from the Hebrew means powerful feminine archetype. I am an ordained priestess with Kohenet, the Hebrew Priestess Institute. One of the core teachings -- in a process of reclaiming and celebrating female leadership as priestess in this tradition is the teaching about 13 Netivot. One of these is Neviah which does represent Miriam and such attibutes as prophesy, speaking out, and creativity in music and dance.

I love this stuff. Feel free to bounce these kind of ideas off me anytime that you like and do consider me a resource/chaveruta (study partner.

Oh that's wonderful your explanation of netivot. I wish I had taken the time or had the time to learn Hebrew. It would make my understanding of scriptures so much easier. I received your last newsletter (the second I've received) and wanted to thank you. Some of those things you said cut deep but the cuts were not painful.

Oh my goodnesss. I went to look at the website of Kohenet. I am overwhelmed. I didn't come across it when I was researching on Miriam. Oh, what a wonderful life you lead! And thank you so much for offering to be my chaveruta (I don't even know how to pronounce it - lol -) but I think I'll be more like a student than a partner. I'll come pretty much empty handed although with a lot of heart.

The Spirituality forum would I think be the most appropriate place I think though for this kind of talk once we've rounded up the loose ends here.

[Natural Mystic Guide]

I received your last newsletter (the second I've received) and wanted to thank you. Some of those things you said cut deep but the cuts were not painful.

Well last week was the end of the season of the Ace of Blades... in my cosmology. And yes, they do often cut deeply... hopefully excising, and pruning things that no longer serves us. Now, with the Full Moon this lunar week we are entering the realm of fire and the Ace of Flames! Feel free to start a thread over in 'Spirituality'. I'm going to try to stay up to date with the forums at Cult of Tarot. I used to be on 'Aeclectic'. I've been on Tarot, Tea, and Me for a while. I've never been super active with either of them because not much has engaged me. Both, though, have been excellent resources when I have had Tarot related questions -- mostly to do with creating a deck and Tarot related media tech.

Yes, Kohenet is pretty exciting. It's very diverse. My personal interests are ritual, dream play, and divination.

[Diana]

I received your last newsletter (the second I've received) and wanted to thank you. Some of those things you said cut deep but the cuts were not painful.

Well last week was the end of the season of the Ace of Blades... in my cosmology. And yes, they do often cut deeply... hopefully excising, and pruning things that no longer serves us. Now, with the Full Moon this lunar week we are entering the realm of fire and the Ace of Flames! Feel free to start a thread over in 'Spirituality'. I'm going to try to stay up to date with the forums at Cult of Tarot. I used to be on 'Aeclectic'. I've been on Tarot, Tea, and Me for a while. I've never been super active with either of them because not much has engaged me. Both, though, have been excellent resources when I have had Tarot related questions -- mostly to do with creating a deck and Tarot related media tech.

Yes, Kohenet is pretty exciting. It's very diverse. My personal interests are ritual, dream play, and divination.

You have shown me I think the doorway to a beautiful garden. I look forward to exploring it and to smell the sweet scent of the roses.

I'm very curious about "dream play". I'll ask about it in the Spirituality forum, unless you start up a thread explaining what it is. I have a bit of an issue with dreams at the moment and don't know how to solve it. It's a recurring nightmare - very frightening and full of despair. I've had this nightmare for at least 15 years, so when I say recurring, it's really really recurring !! Would dream play do you think be able to shed some light and to start the healing process ? It's got something to do with not being able to find my way home. If I could take you into my dream, you would weep with me. I often wake up in tears, but am always deeply shaken. I remember once I woke myself up because I was crying out in desperation "I'll NEVER find my way home".

There is something I would love to have your opinion on. It's a thread I started this morning : viewtopic.php?f=38&t=2228. It concerns the Papesse and the cloth she wears on her head. It's a verse from Corinthians, so New Testament and therefore not so much your domain. However, it's a letter from Paul to the Christian community he'd founded in Corinth, Greece. Now Paul was still very steeped obviously in Judaic tradition and this verse I believe has some implications which I can't grasp as they are beyond my scope of knowledge. I'm wondering if it means anything to you.

[Natural Mystic Guide]

I have a bit of an issue with dreams at the moment and don't know how to solve it. It's a recurring nightmare - very frightening and full of despair. I've had this nightmare for at least 15 years, so when I say recurring, it's really really recurring !! Would dream play do you think be able to shed some light and to start the healing process ? It's got something to do with not being able to find my way home. If I could take you into my dream, you would weep with me. I often wake up in tears, but am always deeply shaken. I remember once I woke myself up because I was crying out in desperation "I'll NEVER find my way home".

Dibarti I hear you.

Thank you for sharing this, Diana. I have checked in with prayer on this and believe that addressing the underlying issue(s) that prompt(s) this dream is beyond the scope of dream play. If you wish to address this, I recommend the modality Soul Memory Discovery. I am a certified facilitator. You can read a little about it on my website, or ask me for more info, and I can send it to you. www.naturalmysticguide.com

... In my dream of this dream, I am so frightened. I can never find my way home. Home is forever barred to me. All that I associate as warm, nurturing, happy, loving -- is forever lost to me. I feel desolate and lost.

There is an explanation and there is healing for this. Without 'going in' I cannot know what that looks like. Perhaps a really gnarly past life?

I'm so sorry that you have this recurring experience. When I have a very bad dream, fortunately I have a wonderful husband -- who incidentally has more than 30 years worth of dream journals -- who I can wake up and be with. Often I begin to pray right in my bed after a very disturbing dream. Also there is a very good method for dealing with a disturbing dream that occurs in older Orthodox Jewish siddurim prayerbooks. It is a ritual that takes three friends. Orthodox Jewish men always pray together first thing in the morning, so they can find 3 such friends to assist them in processing this kind of dream. I have a dream prayer based also on something that appears in siddurim that can be used to play with dreams before going to sleep and to process them after awakening.

Best wishes on this.

[Diana]

Dibarti I hear you.

Thank you for sharing this, Diana. I have checked in with prayer on this and believe that addressing the underlying issue(s) that prompt(s) this dream is beyond the scope of dream play. If you wish to address this, I recommend the modality Soul Memory Discovery. I am a certified facilitator. You can read a little about it on my website, or ask me for more info, and I can send it to you. www.naturalmysticguide.com

... In my dream of this dream, I am so frightened. I can never find my way home. Home is forever barred to me. All that I associate as warm, nurturing, happy, loving -- is forever lost to me. I feel desolate and lost.

There is an explanation and there is healing for this. Without 'going in' I cannot know what that looks like. Perhaps a really gnarly past life?

I'm so sorry that you have this recurring experience. When I have a very bad dream, fortunately I have a wonderful husband -- who incidentally has more than 30 years worth of dream journals -- who I can wake up and be with. Often I begin to pray right in my bed after a very disturbing dream. Also there is a very good method for dealing with a disturbing dream that occurs in older Orthodox Jewish siddurim prayerbooks. It is a ritual that takes three friends. Orthodox Jewish men always pray together first thing in the morning, so they can find 3 such friends to assist them in processing this kind of dream. I have a dream prayer based also on something that appears in siddurim that can be used to play with dreams before going to sleep and to process them after awakening.

Best wishes on this.

Todah (google is a big help! )

I would be interested in speaking to you about the Soul Memory Discovery modality. And to find out how this could be approached long distance (I did see this mention on your website.) I will send you a Private Message soon, this week, about this, when I have an appropriate space and time. I have a firm intuition that this will shed the light needed. Also because you said that there is an explanation and a healing. You said it emphatically and that is how I understand it. And for many reasons, I trust you. You will not lie to me or make up stories.

The dream you had of my dream does indeed paint the scene you describe. But there is also a sense of utter panic as it progresses. But we will be discussing all this I assume if we work together which I sincerely hope we will.

I don't want to assume that it's a past life. It may and it may not. I think not and that it's more complicated even than that. But who knows. I don't want to set out on this journey with any preconceived ideas or theories.

(By the way, the link you gave to your website doesn't work for some reason - I had to type it in manually in google.)

[Natural Mystic Guide]

I don't want to assume that it's a past life. It may and it may not. I think not and that it's more complicated even than that. But who knows. I don't want to set out on this journey with any preconceived ideas or theories.

Perfect. That's the very best way to approach this. I agree. I've been doing Soul Memory Discovery now for almost 8 years and I have to stay that I am utterly astounded by by how effectively it addresses any number of situations. Someone will present with something and I will have this complete blank on it and just wonder how on earth... and amazingly it all just comes together and people get amazing results. So I'm looking forward to further exploration.

Thanks for the heads up on the failure of the link. I'm still trying to learn how to use this site. I seem to be getting the quotes right anyway.

We are moving far afield from our original topic of 'Help with the Devil card'. So to return to that: As I said I do think of 'The Devil' upright as freedom from addictions -- but that's a little too pat. We think addictions and our mind goes to alcoholism or drug abuse perhaps. Or then there's the addiction to always needing to be in a romantic relationship or to spending hours touching our smart phone.

I think of a person, on the spiritual level, as being covered with all of these receptors -- think of the flower of life diagram and all of the intersecting points. Each one of these receptors or holes should ideally be being filled by loving relationships between self and All That Is. In the absence of that, we look for things to stuff our holes with -- maybe so that we don't feel the horrible pain of emptiness. So we turn to all kinds of behaviors that can fill our holes. Anything that keeps us from being in loving relationship with All That Is and with all of the people around us keeps us from being in balance and truly happy. So I see the upright Devil card as saying we are coming into a more healthful balance in terms of being able to be in loving relationship with others and the world around us.

[Crying Owl]

I agree with the interpretation bondage to materialisme.

I would also like to add hopelessness and anti-spirituality, not to forget non-reading/writing and «not thirsty».

Added: Just seconds after I wrote this above I got a vision of a woman entering a bus. I’m not sure if that makes any sense for you?

I also got the word blacksmith. The devil likes fire and real elements and hates symbolisme.

Added more: I also got a vision of a three wheeled children bicycle. Could signify a need/urge to get a child.

CO