Cult of Tarot Forum

This topic started on another thread where I was particularly interested in the Knight of Wands, where Marigold mentioned the Knights being 'chivalrous' by nature, and where we started to consider what that could mean in the 21st Century.

The topic of course then moved to what chivalry would mean based on the Suits!

So! What would chivalry mean for the Knight of Wands? The Knight of Pentacles? The Knight of Cups? The Knight of Swords?

To me the Knight of Swords is the epitome of the Knight in Shining Armour. The Knight of Cups, I can see chivalry being very stereotypically romantic - opening doors, pulling out chairs, walking on the street side so you don't get hit by carriage (car) water as they drive by.

The wikipedia entry on chivalry is long and interesting. They identify three major strands of chivalry:

Different weight given to different areas produced different strands of chivalry:

• warrior chivalry, in which a knight's chief duty is to his lord, as exemplified by Sir Gawain in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight and The Wedding of Sir Gawain and Dame Ragnelle
• religious chivalry, in which a knight's chief duty is to protect the innocent and serve God, as exemplified by Sir Galahad or Sir Percival in the Grail legends.
• courtly love chivalry, in which a knight's chief duty is to his own lady, and after her, all ladies, as exemplified by Sir Lancelot in his love for Queen Guinevere or Sir Tristan in his love for Iseult

Sir Gawain, like the RWS Knight of Swords, races in, perhaps foolhardily. His story also focuses primarily on his honesty and, through that, his devotion to the ideas and ideals of chivalry, which would connect him to the air element. The sword is also the emblem of war.



Now, religious chivalry is the tricky one. We would tend to think of the cups as the suit connected to religion. It's also easy to see the Cup as the grail. I think, however, that religious chivalry is more fully expressed in the Knight of Coins/Pentacles. The RWS Knight of Pentacles is a figure of slow, consistent, and devoted service. Meanwhile, the Marseille Knight of Coins doesn't posses his coin but is chasing it. It could easily be something he sees in a vision. Note that calling him the "Knight of Money" is a bad translation, to be sure. Sir Percival/Parsifal saw visions of the grail that guided him on his quest.




When we see religious chivalry as residing with the knight of coins, then Courtly love chivalry clearly resides in the Knight of Cups and the sexy, come hither look of his horse.



So there are three main kinds of chivalry, but four knights. This is appropriate because it is historically clear that none of the three kinds of chivalry actually existed. They were ideals that bore little resemblance to the realities of the day. This leaves us with the knight of wands.


He's the historical knight. He's going to ride up on his surly looking, protected horse and beat you over the head until you pay up with those taxes.

I have nothing to add to this.

I'm going to copy here a post that I wrote In the thread that WolfSwan mentioned about a Knight of Wands. But I'd like to get back to this thread when I have time to post more about the specific Knights and how they could relate in their own specific ways to the concept of chivalry. But modern chivalry this time. Charlie Brown has well covered already the older type. So here's what I wrote.

************************

I went to look up what chivalry could mean in the 21st century. Some ideas I gleaned from a contemporary Knights Templars website (I don't mention them all because some of them are more in the line of "obey our lord jesus christ" kind of thing.) But others I find helpful for our thread:

Respect and defend the weak against abuses by the strong.

Do not be a coward, face the enemy.

Fight the enemies of good relentlessly and without mercy.

Never lie nor breach your word, be reliable for friend or foe.

Give generously and wholeheartedly, striving to make a difference for the better.

Always uphold right and good, against all evil and injustice.

Another website when speaking of chivalry in the 21st century took the example of a young activist who has taken up the struggle against human slavery with devotion and selflessness.

Charlie Brown wrote: ↑28 Jul 2019, 15:59 The wikipedia entry on chivalry is long and interesting. They identify three major strands of chivalry:

Different weight given to different areas produced different strands of chivalry:

• warrior chivalry, in which a knight's chief duty is to his lord, as exemplified by Sir Gawain in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight and The Wedding of Sir Gawain and Dame Ragnelle
• religious chivalry, in which a knight's chief duty is to protect the innocent and serve God, as exemplified by Sir Galahad or Sir Percival in the Grail legends.
• courtly love chivalry, in which a knight's chief duty is to his own lady, and after her, all ladies, as exemplified by Sir Lancelot in his love for Queen Guinevere or Sir Tristan in his love for Iseult

Sir Gawain, like the RWS Knight of Swords, races in, perhaps foolhardily. His story also focuses primarily on his honesty and, through that, his devotion to the ideas and ideals of chivalry, which would connect him to the air element. The sword is also the emblem of war.


Swords 12.jpg



Now, religious chivalry is the tricky one. We would tend to think of the cups as the suit connected to religion. It's also easy to see the Cup as the grail. I think, however, that religious chivalry is more fully expressed in the Knight of Coins/Pentacles. The RWS Knight of Pentacles is a figure of slow, consistent, and devoted service. Meanwhile, the Marseille Knight of Coins doesn't posses his coin but is chasing it. It could easily be something he sees in a vision. Note that calling him the "Knight of Money" is a bad translation, to be sure. Sir Percival/Parsifal saw visions of the grail that guided him on his quest.


Coin 12.jpg




When we see religious chivalry as residing with the knight of coins, then Courtly love chivalry clearly resides in the Knight of Cups and the sexy, come hither look of his horse.


Cups 12.jpg



So there are three main kinds of chivalry, but four knights. This is appropriate because it is historically clear that none of the three kinds of chivalry actually existed. They were ideals that bore little resemblance to the realities of the day. This leaves us with the knight of wands.


Wands 12.jpg


He's the historical knight. He's going to ride up on his surly looking, protected horse and beat you over the head until you pay up with those taxes.

This is fantastic Charlie Brown! I like the historical take on the Knights here. My only point of disagreement would be on the Knight of Wands. He looks a bit like a brute in the cards you've depicted, I'll agree with that! However, I would seem the Knight of Wands as the typical chivalrous knight, a bit brash, a bit rough around the edges but with a good heart. Actually, I'd compare that Knight of Wands to Dean Winchester from Supernatural (okay, not a historical character, but it's the closest that I could think of as far as energy).

I definitely see the Knight of Pentacles as more spiritual, and the Knight of Cups as more of the romantic Sir Lancelot style knight.

Marigold wrote: ↑28 Jul 2019, 21:54 I'm going to copy here a post that I wrote In the thread that WolfSwan mentioned about a Knight of Wands. But I'd like to get back to this thread when I have time to post more about the specific Knights and how they could relate in their own specific ways to the concept of chivalry. But modern chivalry this time. Charlie Brown has well covered already the older type. So here's what I wrote.

************************

I went to look up what chivalry could mean in the 21st century. Some ideas I gleaned from a contemporary Knights Templars website (I don't mention them all because some of them are more in the line of "obey our lord jesus christ" kind of thing.) But others I find helpful for our thread:

Respect and defend the weak against abuses by the strong.

Do not be a coward, face the enemy.

Fight the enemies of good relentlessly and without mercy.

Never lie nor breach your word, be reliable for friend or foe.

Give generously and wholeheartedly, striving to make a difference for the better.

Always uphold right and good, against all evil and injustice.

Another website when speaking of chivalry in the 21st century took the example of a young activist who has taken up the struggle against human slavery with devotion and selflessness.

So, to get into the 21st Century style Knights, I'll say again that Dean Winchester from Supernatural reminds me of the Knight of Wands energy! Sam Winchester would definitely be a brooding Knight of Cups. I'm trying to think of fictional characters from this day and age that would be the Knight of Pentacles / Knight of Swords...

Chivalry is one of those concepts where the idealised literary image has overtaken the historical reality, to the point of “life imitating art”, in some cases, notably where gallantry towards women is concerned. As a code of conduct formulated in the Middle Ages and with its roots in classical antiquity, it behoves us to investigate the history and evolution of this notion in order to interpret how the knights of the Tarot court may correspond to these ideals. The definitive work on the subject is the following (long out of copyright): http://www.strobertbellarmine.net/books ... ivalry.pdf

Contrasting the reality of knightly life with the literary motifs which have grown around the ideal of chivalry is revealing, to say the least. Perhaps some readers will gain a better insight into the mechanisms involved through reading this book and related works.

True. This review of another book gives a short version: https://origins.osu.edu/review/knightho ... sh-it-were

"His narrative and most of his topical discussions though, while well-researched and excellently presented, are not groundbreaking in terms of historical conclusions. In Chapter 14, for example, he agrees with the current opinion that chivalry rendered the position of aristocratic women in society rather ambiguous. This is because, while they were made objects of reverence (and therefore could wield power over men desirous of their company), they were at the same time relegated to the position of appendages to men in a hyper-masculine martial society. Moreover, as chivalry became more stylized, women were increasingly restricted in their behavior because any deviation from the chivalric ideal of the passive, beautiful female was gradually more unacceptable. The higher the pedestal, it seems, the harder the fall."

It's all kind of a proto-50's housewife situation. You're taken care of (as long as you're the "right" type), but don't go getting your own ideas - or, if you do, shut up.

And the women we're talking about didn't even have valium.

It's all worth a read. Bits from the Grail legends could apply to your readings - but so could the reality.

Why does the Knight of Money have a what looks like a baseball bat or club?

That's a good question and I don't really know the answer. There are a few Marseille courts holding the tools of another suit. The Knight of Coins, The Queen of Coins, and the King of Swords all have little wands/scepters, and The Queen of Cups holds a small sword.

Thinking about the Knight of Coins, if we think of the Wands as representing will or desire then it we can see it as an illustration of the will and desire that motivates his quest for the visionary coin. Plus, Knights just need to be armed, no? True, it looks like the Knight of Cups is unarmed but I imagine he does have a rapier-like wit. Also, I bet the drink is roofied.

He's not Bill Cosby.
Rapier wit is a Swords thing, anyway, to my way of thinking. This guy is in the thrall of that chalice.
He's still a knight, though. Shake out that drapery he's wearing and you'll probably find all kinds of lovely old-school weapons. Rondel daggers, war hammers, flanged maces. No metal detectors in those days, and he probably likes the element of surprise.

2curious wrote: ↑31 Jul 2019, 02:34 Why does the Knight of Money have a what looks like a baseball bat or club?

Great question. Thanks for asking. Probably got us all scratching our heads.

After my scratching my head, I think this would imply that there is a connection here to the suit of Batons. The Knight's coin seems to be floating in the air. Doesn't look very tangible (yet). Almost like it's still a kind of a dream or a goal that's still quite far off. So I think the Baton is there to show that there's still some work to do, an effort to make. Maybe the Knight of Coins (or Money as the publishers here decided to translate it - which is a bit odd but who cares except me) may be requiring a bit of that "Baton" energy.

Which makes me wonder how all these court cards interact with each other.

It's late so I hope this doesn't sound too off the wall, but...

I'm thinking that the club in his right hand may mean he has the ability, or the right, to punish but should not receive (left hand) money. This may be part of the code of chivalry which says "To despise pecuniary reward". The code is here: http://www.medieval-life-and-times.info ... ivalry.htm - as well as the courtly love - http://www.medieval-life-and-times.info ... y-love.htm

Also in keeping with the right as giving and left as receiving - the Knight of Swords has his sword in the wrong (left) hand (receiving hand). If a sword is drawn, it is almost always depicted in the right hand - especially if justice is involved. Horses were mounted from the left side in medieval times and are still mounted from the left today. This is because sword scabbards were worn on the left side and swords were drawn with the right hand, so it was easier to mount from the left. My guess is this is not an error on the card, but representative that he is receiving a challenge. Of all the Knights, this is the only one who is fully armored, horse included, and battle ready. The only one who actually looks like a knight.

Then there's the Knight of Clubs who is semi-armored (breastplate) using a saddle that would hold the rider in place - so I'd say this horse and rider are fit for jousting - he won't easily be injured or unseated if hit with a lance. Helmet would be nice, perhaps he is preparing for a tournament as the club is in the left (receiving) hand.

And lastly, the only knight where we can see what both hands are doing - the Knight of Cups. He is offering a cup while being in control of his mount. He is the only one shown holding the reins of any of their horses. It is only implied that the other knights have control of their horses, but this knight is the only one where it is actually shown.

2curious: What great observations you make there which I think most definitely help us understand these courts better.

It's important I think to make comparisons between the courts like you did. As another example, one can take the suit of Batons. The Page of Batons has a very basic baton - it's unhewed and needs a lot of refinement. The Knight of Baton however has one that is definitely taking shape and which can be used. The Queen's is even more fancy. But when we get to the King, it's no longer a Baton but has become something more - something ceremonial which denotes great power.

_R_ wrote: ↑30 Jul 2019, 12:45 Chivalry is one of those concepts where the idealised literary image has overtaken the historical reality, to the point of “life imitating art”, in some cases, notably where gallantry towards women is concerned ...

This is why I'm not a fan of art for art's sake. It should make shit happen.