Expanding on king and queen distinctions

[emporer]

I am stuck on the queen of cups. I understand king of cups but I have found all of the queen of cups explanations largely insufficient due to limiting gender stereotypes except for the queen of swords. Most of the king vs queen explanations describe the king to be diplomatic and strong and the queen to be soft and accommodating to others. It just feels shallow to me particularly in the queen of cups. As a disclaimer I’m not on here to argue. If you don’t share the same sentiment i don’t care. I’m looking for a deeper interpretation and to work with others to mend the archetype for my own understanding.

[JudyK]

The way I see it, the general associations linked to Queens and Kings are all fairly shallow, but they're just suggestions for the expression of dualism within each suit. One set of cards represents passive/receptive principles, and the paired set represents active/expressive principles. I could swap the titles "King" and "Queen" around for those concepts, or call them something else entirely. The words are just identifiers. But whatever they're called, I'd need those sets to be internally consistent for ease of interpretation - all the "As" would have to signal one principle and all the "Bs" the other.

[TheLoracular]

I am stuck on the queen of cups. I understand king of cups but I have found all of the queen of cups explanations largely insufficient due to limiting gender stereotypes except for the queen of swords. Most of the king vs queen explanations describe the king to be diplomatic and strong and the queen to be soft and accommodating to others. It just feels shallow to me particularly in the queen of cups. As a disclaimer I’m not on here to argue. If you don’t share the same sentiment i don’t care. I’m looking for a deeper interpretation and to work with others to mend the archetype for my own understanding.

I really emphasize. One of the things that has been playing in my head loudly this week is that it would be more helpful to me to work with a tarot deck where king/queen roles were combined as something like "Monarch" and all the command, mandating, authority attributes included there under what is currently conventionally the King. Then for the conventional Queen? I'd use something more like "Throne" or "Maker" or "Kingdom" even and focus on all that formative energy, introversion and introspection without gender-izing it.

This is a work in progress for me though. It would be the approach of changing what there was on the card to interpret vs. finding a different interpretation for what is on the cards.

[Rose Lalonde]

Welcome to the forum!

The Thoth and Thoth inspired Tabula Mundi I read with use the literal acts involved in bringing a child into the world as a metaphor for all acts of creation. So Kings come across as putting their energy out there while Queens receive. But also, Kings have a limited period of usefulness before they roll over and go to sleep, at a time when Queens are just getting started, growing increasingly complex life within and bringing it into the world. -- So if you want a fast fix for a broken water main, you could call a King, but if you want to build a community's water system, you're going to need a Queen.

Everybody has some of both of those characteristics in their personality at different times. I don't read Kings as always male and Queens always female; I tend to associate myself most closely with the Prince of Swords and my husband with the Queen of Cups, both of which fall on our respective birthdays, and also tend to suit us pretty well if I want to use a significator.

As JudyK and Loracular said, if you want, the names can be swapped, and there are decks that switch things up. Spirit Keepers Tarot has the Kings and Queens of Wands and Swords as male while Kings and Queens of Cups and Disks are Female, and the Numinous has non traditional courts with none of the usual names. There are many more.

--- Edited to add: You were discussing the Queen of Cups specifically, and I get why that would be one of the more problematic courts looking at it from a gender perspective. In the Thoth, she literally starts to disappear into the background of the card. But there's power in connecting with others and even in making the decision to put others before ourselves in a certain situation, regardless of the gender identification of the actual person making that decision. If you include Waite/Thoth astrology in readings, we can look for additional traits in the minors that share the same decans as the Q of C: the 2 of Cups and 3 of Cups, the first two decans of Cancer. The Q of C's shadow is the 10 of Swords, the last decan of Gemini.

[emporer]

For some reason the water system analogy made things click for me. I laughed at the rolling over in bed part. Yes there is power in putting others before you but you rarely see that as a quality that stands out in male archetypes and it makes me so angry lol. @rose lalonde

[Nemia]

The whole archetype thing was put into the world by C.G. Jung, a patriarch of the old fashioned kind, based on the myths of the patriarchy that watered down female archetypes because they feared their powers. It's ridiculous to the male energy at the creation of life as active and the female as passive - let's face it, we do all the work while the man just stands by. Pregnancy and giving birth is definitely NOT a passive thing, so even using this analogy is ridiculous.

I have somehow reconciled myself that the archetype idea is tainted by stereotyped thinking characteristic for our culture long before Aristotle put it into writing.

Male principle: active, light

Female principle: passive, darkness

Yeah, of course you need both, but it turns the female principle pretty quickly into a backdrop for male brilliance! Until some years ago, many people really believed that women are incapbable of creating anything except for babies and maybe lace and tapestry (which were typically downgraded to "crafts" because men made art and women only "crafts").

It's actually very difficult to un-think these stereotypes so in a way, I have to roll with them while keeping in mind how limited and limiting they are.

It's actually about time passivity and darkness get their due respect, no matter whethere they're connotated with male or female energies.

In order to get a better feeling for the court card's personal energies, it's probably useful to study the many decks that have overthrown the old gender-class-age diagram.

And let's not even get into Emperor and Empress archetypes!

[Ciderwell]

“Men, they were able to conjure it up immediately, that was one of their powers, that thunderous splashing as they stood lordly above the bowl. Everything about them was more direct, their insides weren’t the maze women’s were, for the pee to find its way through.”
― John Updike, The Witches of Eastwick

I'm sure this has a lot to with why men make better plumbers than women!

[Rose Lalonde]

...Yes there is power in putting others before you but you rarely see that as a quality that stands out in male archetypes and it makes me so angry lol. @rose lalonde

Yeah, you're right. People admire Ghandi's 'passive resistance' that forged real change, and what he accomplished seems very like the tarot Queens to me. But you're not going to see a Marvel movie where the earth is saved by Iron Man's jaw dropping power of... patience. We love drama and a quick fix. But many of the world's actual problems need long-term solutions that get very different people sitting down together and putting an issue like our shared environment above their individual nations' concerns. I'm sure there are many men among those helping to facilitate that work, but like you said, it's not a quality that we tend to hold up and be riveted by.

(If you haven't seen it, you might like the Numinous Tarot.)

[Ciderwell]

Of course the Rider Waite has a fascinating viewpoint from the perspective of the Queen of Cups. Pictured as she is, examining the lidded cup with such intensity she fails to see the bigger picture ... the open sea.
As with the King, adrift on his floating throne, with no wheelhouse or star to guide him.

Ah, such are the affairs of the heart!

[emporer]

...Yes there is power in putting others before you but you rarely see that as a quality that stands out in male archetypes and it makes me so angry lol. @rose lalonde

. But you're not going to see a Marvel movie where the earth is saved by Iron Man's draw dropping power of... patience. We love drama and a quick fix.

Oh my god.......you have no idea how much I needed to hear that part lmao

[emporer]

“Men, they were able to conjure it up immediately, that was one of their powers, that thunderous splashing as they stood lordly above the bowl. Everything about them was more direct, their insides weren’t the maze women’s were, for the pee to find its way through.”
― John Updike, The Witches of Eastwick

I'm sure this has a lot to with why men make better plumbers than women!

I think you’re being sarcastic but in case you’re not FYI the idea that someone is inherently a better plumber due to their gender is preposterous

[emporer]

Of course the Rider Waite has a fascinating viewpoint from the perspective of the Queen of Cups. Pictured as she is, examining the lidded cup with such intensity she fails to see the bigger picture ... the open sea.
As with the King, adrift on his floating throne, with no wheelhouse or star to guide him.

Ah, such are the affairs of the heart!

Idk how I feel about the interpretation of the queen of cups failing to see the bigger picture because she’s analyzing the cup. I could see that making sense for queen of cups in reverse sure but it doesn’t make any type of sense that her not gazing out to the sea is some kind of shortcoming.


as I’m writing this it also just occurred to me that because she has a serious face a lot of interpretations assume there’s something wrong with her or that she’s unhappy rather than just serious or concentrating. It kind of reminds me of how people think there’s something wrong with women if they don’t smile like that they must be upset or mean spirited (resting bitch face) but with men not smiling it’s “he must be deep in thought” or that he’s just a serious person. I think this kind of sentiment gets carried over to gender distinctions in tarot cards

[Ciderwell]

The Queen's lidded cup can quite easily be an interpretation of a tarot card, with the sea as a metaphor of the world at large.
I like the idea that the world at large is by rights the Queen's domain. While the King oversees the upper world - as above so below, kinda thing.

[Ciderwell]

“Men, they were able to conjure it up immediately, that was one of their powers, that thunderous splashing as they stood lordly above the bowl. Everything about them was more direct, their insides weren’t the maze women’s were, for the pee to find its way through.”
― John Updike, The Witches of Eastwick

I'm sure this has a lot to with why men make better plumbers than women!

I think you’re being sarcastic but in case you’re not FYI the idea that someone is inherently a better plumber due to their gender is preposterous

I think John Updike was being sarcastic. I was being facetious.

Fair enough, maybe plumber wasn't a good choice. Rock guitarist might serve as a better example.
Men are simply more aggressive by nature - we're just hard wired that way.

[TheLoracular]

I think John Updike was being sarcastic. I was being facetious.

Fair enough, maybe plumber wasn't a good choice. Rock guitarist might serve as a better example.
Men are simply more aggressive by nature - we're just hard wired that way.

I have a soft spot for John Updike. It started when I picked up my mom's copy for The Centaur as a precocious little kid and didn't completely understand but I came to love his flavor of snark and wit as I kept going- and Witches of Eastwick was just my jam as a young Wiccan

Speaking of archetypes? I toyed with making a tarot deck with characters from that book, looking at the witches there as the Queens. I can't remember half the reasons why, but I do remember being so struck at how "elemental" the main characters were. I might have to read it again.

Also, by sheer coincidence I was reading this article this afternoon about men being hardwired for violence vs. women as part of a completely different conversation. And the biochemistry was just a shade beyond my kenning but I liked the take-home message at the end.

"In short, behavior results from hugely complex processes, and much work is ahead for those who wish to better understand how sex differences may or may not influence behavior."

I also really like the idea of Mahatma Gandhi being a good example of soft power, the patient kind I totally see as part of a Water Court.

I immediately started thinking about Indira Gandhi and both of them as an archetype of King and Queen of Water... or would someone like her be a better example of Queen of Swords?

Or are real people just a whole lot more complex than Court Cards?

[Ciderwell]

I have a soft spot for John Updike. It started when I picked up my mom's copy for The Centaur as a precocious little kid and didn't completely understand but I came to love his flavor of snark and wit as I kept going- and Witches of Eastwick was just my jam as a young Wiccan

As John Updike said about the three witches,

".... which witch is which!"

Its a pity I don't have a good camera as the evening sky had the most incredible cloudscape. I think it was meant to rain tonight because there was a bank of dark grey cloud on the horizon, like a humungous frozen wall. And the sky over my part of town had a beautiful swirl of clouds shaped like a milky white spiral galaxy. To be sure, I suspect there might be witches near to where I live.

[BlueStar]

I see a Queen as an equally strong character as the King just with a different energy and approach. They are a duality. Both have equally valuable qualities,skills, energy which can be positive or negative depending on the context, so I certainly don't see the Queen as shallow.

Rather than approach the court cards such as the Queen with gender stereotypes I think it's more helpful to think about these masculine and feminine characters more in terms of ying yang, passive/active, and other terms used to express the duality of the energetic quality which I believe is essentially what is being portrayed. Those aren't limiting or shallow and are universal fundamental archetypes and without gender stereotype. And neither is inherently weak or strong, good or bad - it's about context. Sometimes a masculine energy can be a weakness or negative in a certain context, or the opposite in a different one. Same for the feminine.

But also we can think about the symbolism of a 'queen', and it can be useful to do that. For example if we think in terms of what it means to be of that position. I would say being a queen requires requires a a certain amount of strength or fortitude, either to have got there in the first place, or to survive in that kind of position. There are qualities we can see the Queen as symbolising if we think about what (ideally) a Queen might be, or do - some suggestions I have seen are things like being diplomatic and skillful at communicating with others to achieve outcomes, a unifier/harmoniser bringing people or communities together. Organisational skills. A leader. She can be 'motherly' i.e. caring, empathetic, and thoughtful about those she rules. As an older person she will have maturity, wisdom and insight borne through her experiences (compared to pages for example) which she will bring to her role. All of these can be done in a positive or negative way (e.g. is she using her communicative skills to harmonize or benefit the community or is she trying to manipulate or destroy for selfish means).

Additionally instead of thinking about a queen in terms of an ancient or outmoded role in society we can draw parallels in the modern world with someone who is married to a 'ruler' such as a CEO of a global corporation, or a first lady in the US and the type of things that might be required of them and that they do, and skills needed for the role (I'm not looking at personalities just at similarities to a queen's role). These roles are essentially modern day versions of the old Kings and Queens.

I hope that made sense and is not too rambly:)

[JudyK]

Or are real people just a whole lot more complex than Court Cards?

.......... ☝

[Mokona]

For me the Kings aren't active at all; they're about control. The King of Cups is about controlling emotions, and this can be good or bad, light or shadow, depending. Sometimes the KIng of Cups looks benevolent to me, sometimes ambivalent, sometimes emotionally constipated. The King of Pents is control of resources, the King of Swords is the control of ideas, the King of Wands can be creative control or restrained action. I suppose I'm following just another stereotype, but that's how the Kings have shown up in my readings, and even the Emperor is not 'active' to me: he's someone who strategises from behind the scenes.

I read the Queen of Cups as someone who has integrated her emotions within herself, whereas the KIng 'manages' his emotions. The Queen of Cups does not suppress her own emotions, but she has mastery of self in how she responds to her emotions and others' too. In romance readings the Queen of Cups is placid, self-composed love, tending towards affection rather than passion; the Page might be infatuation or puppy love, the Knight of Cups is the more passionate lover, with the accompanying highs and lows. And the King, depending on the reading, might be an emotionally unavailable lover, or a placid lover like the Queen. Someone who isn't given to extremes of romantic emotion. I find similar meanings for relationship readings that aren't romantic.

Also, I almost never read the Courts as people. They highlight different qualities in a reading. And they'll represent certain qualities in one reading, certain other qualities in the next reading. So I depend a lot on the surrounding cards when I read the Courts.

[Joan Marie]

What about the elemental association for the Queen of Cups?
She is the Watery part of Water. (As opposed to the King of Cups, the Fiery part of Water)

This is why I have a hard time buying into the passive nature of the Queen of Cups (or any Queen really because they are all represented by Water)

Sure water may seem passive, flowing around obstacles as it does. But Water can take down mountains, make houses fall into the sea- is even the sea itself! It is storms and flood. It freezes into glaciers and carves the land.

Water nurtures, creates, and it also destroys. Then there is the connection to the moon and it's influence on water, and rulership of the night sky.

Water is reflective. A mirror. There is mystery and power.

And it extinguishes Fire! (the element of all the kings)

Fire provides warmth, comfort. It's how we cook food. It gives light. One could easily argue these are "female" attributes because they reflect the home, the classic domain of females.

But some people tend to focus on fire's destructive (aggressive?) qualities. The "energy" and "power" of it and claim those characteristics for males.

I don't see a reason to attach a gender to any of these qualities, I think it is just a convenience from the past that is becoming less and less relevant, at least on a literal level. Maybe it is up to each of us to get past our own preconceptions of gender instead of assuming that the assignations made in the past mean what we think they do.

People will (and always have) make of this what they will depending on their own evolution of thought regarding gender. It all probably made a lot more sense a long time ago to divide things up that way. I suppose the more reductive one's perception of gender and gender roles and qualities, etc. the more limited their readings will be. Conversely, the more expansive it is the greater the understanding of the possibilities of the meanings and correspondences assigned to the cards, and their reflection of who we are, what we can be.

[emporer]

I'm sure this has a lot to with why men make better plumbers than women!

I think you’re being sarcastic but in case you’re not FYI the idea that someone is inherently a better plumber due to their gender is preposterous

I think John Updike was being sarcastic. I was being facetious.

Fair enough, maybe plumber wasn't a good choice. Rock guitarist might serve as a better example.
Men are simply more aggressive by nature - we're just hard wired that way.

The earliest most influential inventors of rock music was Sister Rosetta Tharpe a femme guitarist.

https://clmnorthwest.com/article/sister-rosetta-tharpe/

“more aggressive by nature” is erroneous. the nature vs nurture question cannot be answered in a post colonial world built on violent hierarchal categorization of race and gender. That’s the foundation of our society and the effects that’s had on human behavior is immeasurable.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10. ... 2.10648839

Scientific Studies where they’re like We gAve RaTs TeStoStrOne AnD tHey BeAt tHe ShiT Out oF eAChOtHer So mEn aRe MoRe VioLeNt bY nAtURe don’t even take into account that there are many men with more estrogen than testosterone and women with more testosterone than estrogen to varying degrees and there’s also more than 2 sets of chromosomes.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... mplistic1/


Please take a look at these femme rock musicians displaying potent aggressive energy



And this little girl that’s rocking harder than any of the male musicians I know (wait til she gets to the chorus she’s fucking amazing)


I didn’t want to get sidetracked but you left me no choice

[emporer]

What about the elemental association for the Queen of Cups?
She is the Watery part of Water. (As opposed to the King of Cups, the Fiery part of Water)

This is why I have a hard time buying into the passive nature of the Queen of Cups (or any Queen really because they are all represented by Water)

Sure water may seem passive, flowing around obstacles as it does. But Water can take down mountains, make houses fall into the sea- is even the sea itself! It is storms and flood. It freezes into glaciers and carves the land.

Water nurtures, creates, and it also destroys. Then there is the connection to the moon and it's influence on water, and rulership of the night sky.

Water is reflective. A mirror. There is mystery and power.

And it extinguishes Fire! (the element of all the kings)

Fire provides warmth, comfort. It's how we cook food. It gives light. One could easily argue these are "female" attributes because they reflect the home, the classic domain of females.

But some people tend to focus on fire's destructive (aggressive?) qualities. The "energy" and "power" of it and claim those characteristics for males.

I don't see a reason to attach a gender to any of these qualities, I think it is just a convenience from the past that is becoming less and less relevant, at least on a literal level. Maybe it is up to each of us to get past our own preconceptions of gender instead of assuming that the assignations made in the past mean what we think they do.

People will (and always have) make of this what they will depending on their own evolution of thought regarding gender. It all probably made a lot more sense a long time ago to divide things up that way. I suppose the more reductive one's perception of gender and gender roles and qualities, etc. the more limited their readings will be. Conversely, the more expansive it is the greater the understanding of the possibilities of the meanings and correspondences assigned to the cards, and their reflection of who we are, what we can be.

EXACTLY

[emporer]

For me the Kings aren't active at all; they're about control. The King of Cups is about controlling emotions, and this can be good or bad, light or shadow, depending. Sometimes the KIng of Cups looks benevolent to me, sometimes ambivalent, sometimes emotionally constipated. The King of Pents is control of resources, the King of Swords is the control of ideas, the King of Wands can be creative control or restrained action. I suppose I'm following just another stereotype, but that's how the Kings have shown up in my readings, and even the Emperor is not 'active' to me: he's someone who strategises from behind the scenes.

I read the Queen of Cups as someone who has integrated her emotions within herself, whereas the KIng 'manages' his emotions. The Queen of Cups does not suppress her own emotions, but she has mastery of self in how she responds to her emotions and others' too. In romance readings the Queen of Cups is placid, self-composed love, tending towards affection rather than passion; the Page might be infatuation or puppy love, the Knight of Cups is the more passionate lover, with the accompanying highs and lows. And the King, depending on the reading, might be an emotionally unavailable lover, or a placid lover like the Queen. Someone who isn't given to extremes of romantic emotion. I find similar meanings for relationship readings that aren't romantic.

Also, I almost never read the Courts as people. They highlight different qualities in a reading. And they'll represent certain qualities in one reading, certain other qualities in the next reading. So I depend a lot on the surrounding cards when I read the Courts.

This was really helpful!
reminded me of this video 070 shake did about how men can be afraid of their own emotions and turn it into aggression to keep themself from theirselves.



Aka emotionally constipated. Ideally I’d like to think of the king of cups as someone who’s evolved from this

The quote from 070 shake in the video is
“Altough am not a boy,
I wanted to display
A boy broken
How he manages his sadness
When he is not allowed to cry
From Young
A boy must create a shell
That protects him from
His own emotions
But when that shell cracks
It creates an intense amount of vulnerability
Where the boy must replace the shell with actions
That make him seem as if the shell never broke
He replaces the shell with Ego, Desire and Pride“

I think the shell metaphor is interesting. King of cups- ocean- crab- shell you know

[fire cat pickles]

This reminds me--who is your audience, your sitter for your readings? Is it you?

There needs to be buy in. What will they see or understand when they see a male King of Cups /Coins/ Swords /Wands sitting in front of them?

There is quite a basic distinction there. In a perfect world this doesn't matter. But to most, unfortunately, it still does.

How to explain? Will you be choosing your sitters? Or, again, are you reading for yourself only? If you're only reading for yourself, you can obviously disregard this post.

Of course, if you get non-gender specific decks you can avoid this issue. Something to think about.

[Mokona]

I'm glad you found it helpful. And that's a beautiful quote!
The King of Cups isn't always emotionally constipated–he has shown up in some of my readings that way, but he can also symbolise healing from the same societal wounds of toxic masculinity you've talked about, I think. It also depends on the art on the card.

I think the shell metaphor is interesting. King of cups- ocean- crab- shell you know

Yes! In many RWS-style cards, the King is floating on the waves, and that makes me think that he is trying not to fall into his emotions, trying to stay high and dry. But in the Tarot of Mystical Moments (which I want but don't have yet) the King of Cups has the ocean inside him, and is also holding a ship; so he has integrated his emotions and can feel them when needed but he can also float and not drown in them (and help others stay afloat) when needed.

The same creator, Catrin Welz-Stein, created a King of Cups for the Pride Tarot and he is underwater, keeping the ship afloat with his hair. It's almost like he went underwater so that he could support the ship for it to stay up. And he isn't drowning; he's at home in the water, at home in his emotions, even interacting with a couple of fish.