Sun: quick help

[Charlie Brown]

Hey...

Can anyone remind me which historical deck Waite & Smith took their inspiration from for the Sun card?

[Papageno]

Carey-Yale Visconti

[Papageno]

my bad, the Cary-Yale is a Luigi Scapini recreation of the Visconti Sun card.

I believe the correct answer is the Jacques Vieville Sun card:

[fire cat pickles]

The Sun from the Vandenborre Bacchus Tarot may also be a contender:

[Charlie Brown]

The Sun from the Vandenborre Bacchus Tarot may also be a contender:

That's the one I was thinking of, yes. And it looks like maybe that card drew from the Yale.

[Joan Marie]

Looking at these 3 possibilities, I would lean toward Cary-Yale-Visconti based on the overall vibe of happiness or innocence.
Although the Jacques Vieville resembles the RWS in many respects, that Sun looks mean.

Just for kicks, here is the closest thing to a "Sun" card from the Sola-Busca.

The bright red and the "sunflowers" on the knees. The Basilisk (for a horse). The crowns. The outstretched arms. And the look of childlike innocence on the boy's face are all a bit similar.

[Papageno]

TIME OUT..............or more accurately, are we forgetting the time line here?


First of all the Scapini recreations are from 20th century.

The Vandenborre Bacchus is from 1780, therefore the Scapini Sun of the Cary-Yale deck cannot have been the source inspiration,
unless I'm overlooking something again.

Also, if we compare it to World card (Cary-Yale) it's seems that Scapini was attempting to provide aesthetic continuity.

According to DePaulis/Kaplan, the World card is authentic.

Compare the the original World card and the Scapini Sun recreation, the overall composition of both cards are nearly identical.
Notice the scalloped formation of the clouds and framing of the city on the ground below.

It seems to me that Scapini cherry picked various elements to "recreate" or more accurately, depict his own vision of what might be a suitable Sun card for the U.S. Games Cary-Yale deck.

The actual "Sun" head in the hands of Apollo/Helios is almost identical to the Pierpont-Morgan Visconti, which is also an authentic card.

The horse seems to be inspired by other depictions of the Apollo/Helios chariot being drawn by stallions across the sky.

I agree with JM about the Sunflowers (nice catch) .
The almost child-like countenance of the face being inspired by the Sola Busca is an interesting point, especially given that
Cherubic depictions of that time were never really that charming.......Cherubs though they may be.

At first I looked the Sola Busca, but quickly dismissed it.......well that'll learn me

Notice also the red attire/armor of Apollo/Helios in the Sola Busca and the red sash of Apollo/Helios in the Scapini rendering, as well as the authentic Pierpont-Morgan Visconti Sun.

[Charlie Brown]

You know, I realize I actually misread the post about the Yale and thought that was the Vieville. The Vieville is the image I was looking for in my mind when I posted this question.

[Papageno]

You know, I realize I actually misread the post about the Yale and thought that was the Vieville. The Vieville is the image I was looking for in my mind when I posted this question.

It’s so easy to get these details mixed up, ESPECIALLY with the historical decks.
I have a ridiculous amount of notes on many decks in my collection, in minutae……
I do wonder sometimes (rolls eyes).

So getting back to the matter of which historical deck or decks inspired Pamela Colman Smith, I think it’s fair to say that she, like Luigi Scapini, cherry picked elements from various (authentic) sources.

Just my amateur opinion, but PCS was probably influenced by BOTH her knowledge of art history as well as her study of actual tarot decks.

She was obviously more than familiar with genuine historical depictions of Apollo/Helios being drawn across the sky in his Sun chariot by stallions.

The red sash hovering above the child in her Sun card harkens back to the Pierpont-Morgan Sun card.

The sunflowers are very likely inspired by the Sola Busca deck as are the more charming and innocent faces evident on both the Sola Busca and RWS cards.

I also just realized the Vieville and Vandenborre Sun cards are facing in opposite directions.

[Papageno]

Upon further investigation and a cursory comparison of two Sola-Busca editions and a brief cross referencing of a book by Sofia Di Vincenzo with a preface by Giordano Berti, I've come to the realization that there are major discrepancies between the edition published by G. Berti and a very early edition by Lo Scarabeo under the title, Ancient Enlightened Tarot / Sola Busca.

The "Ancient Enlightened Tarot / Sola Busca" Deck was published perhaps in 2000? correct me if I'm wrong.
This was during that unfortunate period of Lo Scarabeo's history when they were printing multilingual titles in the corners of the cards.
They also chose to simply use the numbering on the cards and arbitrarily assign completely incorrect meanings to them.

For instance, the "OLIVO" card # XVI is cited as "The Tower", although this card has absolutely nothing to do with a standard TdM or RWS Tower card. Joan Marie is correct when she states that "OLVIO" is basically a close representation of the Sun card.

The most recent offering from Lo Scarabeo, the "Museum Quality" boxed set appears to have mercifully done away with that unfortunate practice. I don't have it, I already own the lovely Rinascimento edition by G. Berti., so I don't know what sort of printed material is included with their deck.

Meanwhile, the earlier LS printing of the "Ancient Enlightened Tarot / Sola Busca" deck serves well enough for study and reference.

The book by Sofia Di Vincenzo was published by US Games in 1998 under ISBN 1-57281-130-7
and is now OOP, although I'm sure you can find a copy without much effort.

You need this book.......seriously.

Sola Busca Lo Scarabeo.jpg (23.32 KiB) Viewed 2036 times

[TheLoracular]

Dare I add that it's very possible it might have been an alchemical drawing of the Filius Philosophorum in a museum collection that inspired the card just as much as anything else? I am pretty sure that's how it made its way into the earliest Major Arcana one way or another, via alchemically-minded art and symbology.