Thoth: Looking for a new Deck

[Joan Marie]

My old US Games Aleister Crowley Thoth deck is getting a bit tattered and I'd like to get a new one.

I'm wondering if anyone knows of a nice version of this deck, maybe something printed on better cardstock, or just something a little fancier than the standard US games version. Or does US Games own the rights entirely to this deck and only make the one version available?

Seems like this should have gone into public domain by now like RWS which has endless versions available. But maybe not.

[Maskelyne]

The copyright for the Thoth belongs to the Ordo Templi Orientis (OTO), who have authorized US Games and AGM Urania to print it. I would guess that the timer on that copyright started with first publication c. 1969, so may last until 2059. AGM published a "gold box" edition a few years ago, slightly smaller than the standard edition, that was based on new, more accurate photography of the artwork with more muted colors than the older editions. I bought one from Amazon.de, but I couldn't find it on their website just now. AGM now has a new Gold Edition (made from the old photos)
with gold edges. Unfortunately, they have resized the deck and distorted the proportions, and it comes in one of those kit boxes with a flimsy cardboard well to hold the cards.


My favorite Thoth is a large one that with the borders trimmed off.

[Charlie Brown]

By all accounts the version printed by Mueller is sublime and, lucky for you, is what's readily available in Germany. I'm not sure if the titles are in German though.

[Joan Marie]

My favorite Thoth is a large one that with the borders trimmed off.

Is there a larger printed version?

[Maskelyne]

The "large" version I mentioned is 5.5x3.75" (140x95mm), as published by both USG and AGM. Trimmed, they measure 4.4x2.95" (112x75mm). As far as I know, that's the largest one published. There are also standard (4.35x2.75"/110x70mm) and pocket (3.5x2.25"/90x57mm) editions.

[reall]

I have that gold box edt & confirm it have superb colors & sharpness! sadly it's poker size, shame that golden edges edt don't use same hi quality graphic!

Regarding copyright, I would like to hear Bell opinion?
but my understanding is both authors Crowley & Lady FH intended deck to be public domain & think wiser edt was also declard as public domain?
http://www.davidmcclanahan.com/tarot/Th ... itions.htm
Also if ruled by" In the United States, copyright for a work published after 1923 but before 1978 will remain in the images until 95 years after the date of first publication," & illustrations are 1st published in the book of Thoth 1944= US pd 2039!

But powerful forces (oto & usg) think otherwise!
Btw acording to oto original illustrations are restored & curated by https://warburg.sas.ac.uk/ institute wonder if they allow access to it for research academic sake?:)

Funny thing most countries declare public domain author life+70yrs & Lady FH rip 1962= public domain 2032!
& more interesting life+50yrs is also standard accepted by China Italy Philippines & few more countries so it entered pd 2012!:) but we are yet to see someone test this out?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... ht_lengths

[Joan Marie]

Today I received my AG Müller, large size print version of Thoth.

It's big! A real pain to shuffle actually, but I really do love the big prints. It did come from Germany but the book and all are in english.

BTW, regarding the copyright, it says on this box that it is held (as stated earlier in this thread) by the OTO International/AGM, Switzerland, 1944, 1962.

1962 being the year Lady Frieda Harris passed away.

Could that mean that the copyright expires in 2032?

US Games & AGM versions

[imno007]

I know I'm a bit late to the party, but I stumbled on this thread and thought I'd mention that US Games has a new "Limited Gold Edition" out now, in case any of you weren't aware of it. Not sure it's worth the high price, but if you really like gold gilt edging, then this is for you:

https://www.usgamesinc.com/aleister-cro ... k-set.html

[fire cat pickles]

Could that mean that the copyright expires in 2032?

This is what I've found:

https://www.lashtal.com/thoth-tarot-cop ... itigation/

I heard this to be the case. Around this time I bought quite a few Thoth decks. I have a total of five in my collection:
Thoth AG Mueller (blue box)
Thoth ("greenie")
Thoth (US Games, 3 magus cards)
Thoth (USG large - trimmed)
Thoth (USG white box)

The greenie and the trimmed are the only two I had prior to 2013. The trimmed one is an absolute butcher job, I will never trim another deck!

[Joan Marie]

Interesting article.

here's the net from it on copyright:

Incidentally, don’t believe what you read in some places on the Internet about Thoth Tarot copyright terms—these rights don’t expire anytime soon. If memory serves, they run until end of 2039 (first authorized publication in 1944 + the 95 year extended US term) in America, and they run until end of 2032 in Europe (the life of Lady Harris, the last co-creator to die, in 1962, plus 70 years).

[Merrick]

Today I received my AG Müller, large size print version of Thoth.

It's big! A real pain to shuffle actually, but I really do love the big prints. It did come from Germany but the book and all are in english.

BTW, regarding the copyright, it says on this box that it is held (as stated earlier in this thread) by the OTO International/AGM, Switzerland, 1944, 1962.

1962 being the year Lady Frieda Harris passed away.

Could that mean that the copyright expires in 2032?



Thoth Tarot.jpg

If one were to border trim the large print deck, would it be close to the size of the regular size deck with borders intact? I never liked all the keywords on the Thoth deck and would be happier without the borders.

[Rachelcat]

Here's my trimmed US Games large green box (left) beside my still in the cellophane US Games medium lavender box (right)

Trimmed large = 4 1/2 x 3 inches
Medium = 4 3/16 x 2 3/8 inches

So the trimmed is just slightly larger than the medium.

I also have a trimmed small (pocket Swiss) if you want to see it compared to untrimmed!

[Merrick]

Here's my trimmed US Games large green box (left) beside my still in the cellophane US Games medium lavender box (right)


Thoths.jpg


Trimmed large = 4 1/2 x 3 inches
Medium = 4 3/16 x 2 3/8 inches

So the trimmed is just slightly larger than the medium.

I also have a trimmed small (pocket Swiss) if you want to see it compared to untrimmed!

Thanks! That large trimmed one looks absolutely amazing. Is it the same thin card stock as the standard size US Games deck?

[Papageno]

I heard this to be the case. Around this time I bought quite a few Thoth decks. I have a total of five in my collection:
Thoth AG Mueller (blue box)
Thoth ("greenie")
Thoth (US Games, 3 magus cards)
Thoth (USG large - trimmed)
Thoth (USG white box)

The greenie and the trimmed are the only two I had prior to 2013. The trimmed one is an absolute butcher job, I will never trim another deck!

just out of idle curiosity, have you ever compared the AGMüller, US Games and "White Box" versions side by side?

I've never had owned a OTO White Box deck before.........and I'm not looking for one either.

However, I have compared the AGMüller and U.S. Games versions and the differences are quite revealing.
Each publishing house takes a very different strategy as to their interpretation of how the images should be restored and printed.
In some cards, those differences are subtle and very pronounced in others.

They both have merit, although I much prefer the AGMüller Blue Box printings.

IMHO.......the OTO people are really missing out on a lucrative licensing opportunity by not authorizing anybody to
release a borderless version of the Thoth.....but that's their business.