Mind altering substances

[Diana]

Following a conversation I had with someone who uses mild altering substances for spiritual development, I decided to ask the Tarot the following question :

What role do mind altering substances such as LSD, mushrooms, marijuana…. play in spiritual development and enlightenment ?

Grimaud Tarot of Marseilles. Majors only.

1) Benefits : LE PENDU XI (Hanged Man)
2) Downsides : L’HERMITE VIII (Hermit)
3) Conclusion : L’EMPEREUR IIII (Emperor)

1) Benefits – THE HANGED MAN

Well, this is a most appropriate card for our question. If there is any character in the Tarot who is in an altered state of mind, it is he. is inner and outer world must look so different to what he’s used to. He’s very peaceful and serene. It's a card that speaks of spirituality – there’s that sense of abandon and surrender that one can attain in deep meditative states. When the outer world disappears from view. Also there is a sense of expectancy and of confidence. It’s very tempting in some way. To be able to slip away onto cloud nine with the help of the sap that comes perhaps from those very trees on either side of him.

He is of course, unable to escape from where he is once he’s in that state. He can’t just click his fingers and snap out of it. He’s dependent on that rope which will hold him there suspended until the effects of the substance wear off. Pendu – Suspendud, did you notice ?

In French “pendule” means a clock. There’s always an element of time present in the card of the Hanged Man. Tic toc tic toc tic toc. But for him, time is standing still. Timelessness. His sense of space and place too are modified. It is useful though I would think, when one is seeking spiritual enlightenment, to be able to remove oneself as far as possible from the concepts of time and space. So this seems like an effective means to do so at least. We are in the benefits part of the reading here after all.

He hasn’t lost complete control of himself though because he’s still able to hold his hands tidily behind his back, and also his legs are forming a symbolic number 4 - the same as is the Emperor, the card of the conclusion of this draw. So I’ll have to get back to this later when we reach the Emperor. The Hanged Man is still conscious of himself and his body and his surroundings and accommodates them well. He's not a zombie.

So the first two elements from this card would indicate that firstly there is indeed some benefit to go into a different state of consciousness with the assistance of some mind altering substance. Secondly there is this time factor. Apart from the fact that he doesn’t have complete control over himself for a while which I don’t think is a problem as it’s kind of one of the goals of the whole exercice, perhaps this question of Time is also hinting at the fact that the long term effects of the experience, however beautiful and amazing and mind blowing they may be, do not last. And that therefore, our efforts may be in vain because what is not lasting cannot be enlightenment, or at least it’s not very effective if one has to ingest each time a substance to reach that state. I don’t know yet if it’s hinting at that. It’s just a thought that came to me. I hope to learn more with the next cards.

2) Downsides – THE HERMIT

Gosh, what a contrast between the Hermit and the Hanged Man. On the left, a young hippie of the day, and on the right an old wise man with a lantern and all, looking at him. Not with any mockery, nor animosity, nor judgment. He’s just observing him. I think we would all surely agree that the Hermit is the Philosopher of the Tarot, “le grand Sage”, he represents the Ancients. All the gurus and masters and teachers of all time. And of course, he is looking for a Man with his lantern. And the Hanged Man has not escaped his attention. Is he wondering whether he has found a Man… or maybe even a disciple ?

I think the Hermit has recognised in the Hanged Man, due maybe to the revelations he had in his altered states of consciousness, a fellow and a brother. Or at the least the Hermit recognised the intentions that led to the Hanged Man taking the substances. That the intentions were pure and were to seek enlightenment. The lantern shines light on the matter and the light is true. Something happened maybe during the altered state of consciousness that led to a new understanding of the world and the universe. So the Hermit is waiting patiently for the Hanged Man to be released from the rope. But the Hermit, being a Master, has no need of any mind altering substances. It’s rather difficult to imagine Buddha or Jesus passing round joints to their disciples. He has learned to go to those places without them. So he will invite the Hanged Man to join his community, in order to teach him to do WITHOUT all these artificial paradises.

It would seem therefore that these substances can be useful to kickstart one on a spiritual journey, but that they are not required nor useful in the long term. Tic toc tic toc tic toc. How long will it take for the Hanged Man to release himself fully from the rope which is a form of addiction, I forgot to mention that, and walk off into the mountains (meaning higher consciousness) where the Hermit lives.

3) Conclusion : THE EMPEROR

I’ll get back then now to the number 4 formed by both the legs of the Hanged Man and the Emperor. I think it would be wrong to ignore the coincidence. One of the first things I learned when I started studying the TdM was “the Emperor’s legs form a number 4”. A number of solidity and of sound construction. So there is a beginning of a certain construction in the card of the Hanged Man, the benefits. It’s not a false start.

The Emperor’s eagle on his shield has his wings facing downwards. It’s still earthbound. (The Empress’ eagle is ready to take flight.) I get a sense that this is saying that the mind altering substances of the Hanged Man, although they seem to make the person “fly”, that they are not going to elevate us very high. They continue to plant us in the realm of matter and earthly concepts.

I think the conclusion to this reading is that it doesn’t do any harm to take mind altering substances. It’s not proscribed from the outset. They are not paths that will lead us up blind allies. But that we would have to one day decide to pass over to the REAL thing. And go with the Hermit to his Mountain. Then then the number 4 will no longer be a virtual one, but a real one. An Emperor kind of 4. The one that has proper dominion, not an artificial or temporary dominion.

I hope this makes sense.

[BlueStar]

Great question to pose for a tarot reading, and your result is really interesting.

Regarding enlightenment there are a number of stories of people in history such as artists, inventors, scientists, who have had eureka moments, profound insights or creative bursts whilst using such substances for example Francis Crick (DNA double helix shape)
http://www.hallucinogens.com/lsd/francis-crick.html

That's not to say all people have good experiences - there are also stories of scary experiences. From what I've read in the past I think one's current mental and emotional state maybe have an impact on the experience.

I thought the Hermit for the Downside in the reading was interesting and very apt, suggesting there could be a a danger of going more and more 'inward' like a hermit, to keep wanting to experience the effect (addiction I guess) rather than using the experiences and insights gained to benefit or help in everyday life and our interactions in the world around. Perhaps also the Emperor suggest that - staying 'grounded' or 'ordered' (in the sense of not letting oneself get addicted or life get chaotic through them), is necessary and overall the experience, if approached in a grounded way can help give us 'order' in some way in our lives (maybe just by helping us understand something).

Fascinating topic.

[Diana]

I'm glad you appreciated this reading. Thanks for elaborating more on it.

Yes, mind altering substances have indeed led to many creations and discoveries as you say. Your link is interesting - thanks for that too.

In my youth, I took LSD several times and am convinced without a shadow of a doubt that it opened doors of perception that I would not have had otherwise - or at least not so early on in my life. And am hugely grateful for the experience. It did give me a nudge in the right direction. It showed me that there was another world out there - where space, time, forms and perception were different. But they were real. There was nothing incorrect about them - just another "way" of seeing the world. It was mind-blowing. I'll never forget those beautiful pink swans dancing on the lake !

But I wouldn't be interested anymore in taking it. I have had the opportunity but always turn it down. I don't think it would serve any purpose anymore.

And your comments on the Emperor are spot on. I wish I'd said that !!!

[chiscotheque]

One of the benefits of the Plato's Cave restructuring is it facilitates a revision of past posts, and allows one to comment directly on each post.

it's interesting how both the Hermit and Emperor are turned toward the Hanged Man - concerned for his well-fare, or possibly blocking is progress. The HM is sometimes seen as a traitor - hanging is a traitor's punishment - and the earthly rulers certainly seem to view him that way. They are certainly "of the earth" on the horizontal plane while the HM is god-knows-where. On that note, the HM has sometimes felt to me to be in utero - the rope his umbilical cord. Gnostically speaking, the HM is the mid-way point of the deck, suggesting the traveler's birth from mundane entrapment to his awakening to matters metaphysical. The Hermit certainly does seem to be saying: do it my way, the slow, steady, and safe way; focus on the little light in the lantern like the soul in the body, don't just put it all out there. I note the Hermit carefully suspends his own soul, in a sense, while the HM suspends himself. I think I'm right in saying the HM is the only card where the character on it looks directly out at the viewer (I don't know that the lion on Le Monde counts). The Emp holds his sceptre like a truncheon and confines the bird by sitting on it.

You mentioned the Emp's legs, Marigold. The HM of course also has crossed legs, although his are reversed, being crossed behind. A myth persists that crossed legs (on tombs and statuary at any rate) indicate knights who have "taken up the cross", either by crusading literally in the Holy Land (Emp) or crusading in metaphorical Holy Lands, such as members of secret societies or fellow travelers might describe. The myth was begun during the Renaissance (in Camden's 1594 work Brittannia, for instance), a time of allegory and allusion - the time the tarot was becoming codified. That this myth is not literally speaking True is - as with all myth - moot, beside the point.

It's a great topic, one I wouldn't mind doing an extrapolated reading on sometime myself.


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[Diana]

One of the benefits of the Plato's Cave restructuring is it facilitates a revision of past posts, and allows one to comment directly on each post.

This was a brilliant move on your and Joan Marie's part. Your idea of Plato's Cave also a brilliant idea.

it's interesting how both the Hermit and Emperor are turned toward the Hanged Man - concerned for his well-fare, or possibly blocking is progress. The HM is sometimes seen as a traitor - hanging is a traitor's punishment - and the earthly rulers certainly seem to view him that way. They are certainly "of the earth" on the horizontal plane while the HM is god-knows-where. On that note, the HM has sometimes felt to me to be in utero - the rope his umbilical cord. Gnostically speaking, the HM is the mid-way point of the deck, suggesting the traveler's birth from mundane entrapment to his awakening to matters metaphysical. The Hermit certainly does seem to be saying: do it my way, the slow, steady, and safe way; focus on the little light in the lantern like the soul in the body, don't just put it all out there. I note the Hermit carefully suspends his own soul, in a sense, while the HM suspends himself. I think I'm right in saying the HM is the only card where the character on it looks directly out at the viewer (I don't know that the lion on Le Monde counts). The Emp holds his sceptre like a truncheon and confines the bird by sitting on it.

I know that the Hanged Man is sometimes seen as a traitor and I understand why people think so. I found the idea interesting too at one time, but I've never found this hypotheses to stand to the test. In spite of the historical practice of hanging traitors sometimes upside down. I once read that some of the Christian martyrs were also hung upside down, but I've never found anything to corroborate this.

I know also that the Death card follows him, so some people say that this is his punishment. But look how happy he looks. Almost innocent. That's no Judas. I know one mustn't judge a book by its cover and that the TdM is sometimes cryptic, but this cryptic ? Naaah. This is more a card of surrender. Not surrender after defeat. More an Islamic kind of surrender. At least an attempt. Not a very good attempt however when it comes to our reading at hand.

You revealed some very important aspects about the Hermit which I would never have seen. Wonderful. That's the advantage of having these separate threads now. We can really get into the discussion.

You mentioned the Emp's legs, Marigold. The HM of course also has crossed legs, although his are reversed, being crossed behind. A myth persists that crossed legs (on tombs and statuary at any rate) indicate knights who have "taken up the cross", either by crusading literally in the Holy Land (Emp) or crusading in metaphorical Holy Lands, such as members of secret societies or fellow travelers might describe. The myth was begun during the Renaissance (in Camden's 1594 work Brittannia, for instance), a time of allegory and allusion - the time the tarot was becoming codified. That this myth is not literally speaking True is - as with all myth - moot, beside the point.

I had no idea !! Now that is a very important piece of information you've provided there. I'm not yet sure of the import, but I feel it is of big significance. When I've had time to think about it and do a bit of research, and if anything interesting comes up, I'll share it here.

I don't think this is connected, but it's a sort of related fact. The Maison Dieu (Tower) in the TdM is most likely a sort of a hospice - I mean the origin of the word Maison Dieu, not the actual depiction on the Tarot card - hospices didn't have that kind of architecture. There are some theories that it could be rather a place of shelter and rest for the pilgrims who were off to the Holy Land. But it's more likely a hospice. Maybe both ? That kind of cryptic the TdM is capable of.

It's a great topic, one I wouldn't mind doing an extrapolated reading on sometime myself.

Looking forward to it.

[chiscotheque]

I know that the Hanged Man is sometimes seen as a traitor and I understand why people think so. I found the idea interesting too at one time, but I've never found this hypotheses to stand to the test. In spite of the historical practice of hanging traitors sometimes upside down. I once read that some of the Christian martyrs were also hung upside down, but I've never found anything to corroborate this.

I know also that the Death card follows him, so some people say that this is his punishment. But look how happy he looks. Almost innocent. That's no Judas. I know one mustn't judge a book by its cover and that the TdM is sometimes cryptic, but this cryptic ? Naaah.

how i feel about it is the tarot contains many layers; meanings not always germane to a given reading but in there as part of each card's ganglia, admixture, DNA. The most famous martyr crucified upside down was Peter. this is sort of interesting because he is in a way the apostle most opposite from Judas. yet like many opposites, they contain aspects of each other - the upside-down thing, but it was Peter who denied Christ 3 times. peter was christ's first disciple and Judas was arguably his last - both the 12th and the 13th. the HM is numbered 12, but is the 13th arcanum if we include the Fool. Judas was Christ's treasurer - Peter is the first pope, and isn't the catholic church effectively Christianity's treasury if not treasurer? many have believed the pope to be the antichrist. and if we consider Judas not as how the church paints him but as do gnostics, say, then judas is an integral and enlightened player in Christ's passion and ministry. in other words, flip our notion of Judas as a traitor on its head and you see that he was fulfilling a divine duty. the Gospel of Judas has him an enlightened apostle, who struggles as does a man in a snare and who is seen as a traitor - but who in reality is a character not unlike the Hanged Man. Similarly, the Death card which follows is a metaphorical death - an awakening.

again, these meanings are just some of many embedded in the tarot's substrata. certain meanings not only stand out because of the issues inherent in a particular reading but because certain meanings resonate more with certain readers than do others.


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[Diana]

I know that the Hanged Man is sometimes seen as a traitor and I understand why people think so. I found the idea interesting too at one time, but I've never found this hypotheses to stand to the test. In spite of the historical practice of hanging traitors sometimes upside down. I once read that some of the Christian martyrs were also hung upside down, but I've never found anything to corroborate this.

I know also that the Death card follows him, so some people say that this is his punishment. But look how happy he looks. Almost innocent. That's no Judas. I know one mustn't judge a book by its cover and that the TdM is sometimes cryptic, but this cryptic ? Naaah.

how i feel about it is the tarot contains many layers; meanings not always germane to a given reading but in there as part of each card's ganglia, admixture, DNA. The most famous martyr crucified upside down was Peter. this is sort of interesting because he is in a way the apostle most opposite from Judas. yet like many opposites, they contain aspects of each other - the upside-down thing, but it was Peter who denied Christ 3 times. peter was christ's first disciple and Judas was arguably his last - both the 12th and the 13th. the HM is numbered 12, but is the 13th arcanum if we include the Fool. Judas was Christ's treasurer - Peter is the first pope, and isn't the catholic church effectively Christianity's treasury if not treasurer? many have believed the pope to be the antichrist. and if we consider Judas not as how the church paints him but as do gnostics, say, then judas is an integral and enlightened player in Christ's passion and ministry. in other words, flip our notion of Judas as a traitor on its head and you see that he was fulfilling a divine duty. the Gospel of Judas has him an enlightened apostle, who struggles as does a man in a snare and who is seen as a traitor - but who in reality is a character not unlike the Hanged Man. Similarly, the Death card which follows is a metaphorical death - an awakening.

again, these meanings are just some of many embedded in the tarot's substrata. certain meanings not only stand out because of the issues inherent in a particular reading but because certain meanings resonate more with certain readers than do others.

All very well argued and debated. I've nothing to say in opposition. I think I didn't realise that Judas was a treasurer. Need to go and check all that and fill some holes in my education.

Only 12 and 13 doesn't necessarily hold up for the TdM. The Fool is unnumbered and doesn't have a specific place in the deck. He's sort of the joker of the card game. So in that case, however well argued and debated, it's still a bit tenuous. He's actually a sort of invisible twin of the Death card. If you put them back to front, one gets a name (Death card in the TdM is unnamed) and the other gets a number and they sort of mirror each other also physically when back to front. They're definitely related. It's no coincidence.

But absolutely and definitely about the DNA and substrata.

I really need to log off now and get some rest. But I'd like to come back to what I didn't address in your last post in due time.

[chiscotheque]

now, Marigold, not to be an irritating stickler, but in esoteric teaching, hidden meanings are often implanted 3 different ways, in order to be verified as distinct from coincidence. i do not insist the HM is Judas, only that it's one of the ways to view the card allegorically. just on the issue of numbering alone i suggested 2 reasons to affiliate the HM with Judas, and here's a third: in the Gospel of Judas, Jesus calls Judas, who is always on the outs with the other apostles, "the thirteenth". why 13th? because Jesus is the first but outside the numbered group - that is, Jesus is the Fool. again, this schema makes Judas the apostles + Jesus - the 13th - and the HM - the 12th arcanum + Fool. If, as you say, the Fool and Death are connected, the implications surrounding Jesus' death become obvious, as do teachings that death is not the absolute end and claims of resurrection, transcendence, eschatology, soteriology, etc. we may also see the significance of the HM with regard to the Fool's Death. one commonly held view of the HM sees him placed in a very prickly spot which, to get out of, he must come up with a solution sublime, counterintuitive, hermetical. ie - he must make himself the scapegoat - an imitation of sorts of Christ.

again, i don't mean to argue that this is THE way to interpret the HM card and it's position vis-a-vis the Fool & Death, only that it is one valid hermeneutical way.



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[Diana]

now, Marigold, not to be an irritating stickler, but in esoteric teaching, hidden meanings are often implanted 3 different ways

Stickler maybe. Irritating never. Than you as ever for all that. Pretty deep stuff you're sharing there.

I understand now that this is one of the things that separates the anglo-saxon tarot tradition and the French tradition. It's the historical side to the Tarot of Marseilles. The anglo-saxon decks, being contemporary, don't have this history behind them. We know all about the Golden Dawn and Crowley. There's little we don't know if we look for it.

Us Tarot of Marseilles folk, who consider the Tarot of Marseilles to be the Ur Tarot, are constantly and longingly looking also for the history behind the cards. Who is this Papesse ? Did she represent one particular person at the outset ? If so, who ? Pope Joan ? Manfreda ? Mary Magdalene? Or is she a symbolic representation of Sophia ? We want to know. We long to know. This Hanged Man - what did he represent for the people in the Middle Ages ? What did he represent for THEM ? We try desperately to put ourselves into the mindset of the people of the time - but we know this is impossible. But still we search. So that is why I look at the Hanged Man in the TdM and ask myself : "would a guy playing a game of tarot in the local tavern think of Judas when looking at this picture ?" (Pictures were not very prolific in those days either. I often think of how amazed someone from the middle ages would be if they came here in a time machine and saw that everywhere except in nature there are pictures, pictures, pictures.)

This is just to explain that I think I was approaching this topic with my usual passion for the history of the TdM. (It's actually what drew me to the Tarot to start out with - those cards looked to me like a history book.)

[chiscotheque]

ugh - i admit it, i'm an irritating stickler. i'm in no way adverse to skepticism - in fact, i get adversarial when it's absent. by the same token, i rankle at incredulousness as much as credulousness. i agree and appreciate everything you said there above, Marigold, but - being an irritating stickler - i would just point one thing out. are we to judge the meaning and intentions embedded in the tarot by what might occur to "a guy in a local tavern"? like the New Historicists, we easily delude ourselves by pretending to know what the average guy in a given time and place would and would not think and feel. take Shakespeare - are we to deduce what he was capable of and what he accomplished by what a hypothetical illiterate grounding who strumbled into the Globe theatre presumably made of what he saw? As with the Tarot, there are many versions of Shakespeare's plays, many of the intentions are lost or hidden, and some of the plays were never performed - how and by whom do we evaluate these? Many of the plays began as entertainments performed at court, for the queen and nobles - highly literate people who spoke many languages and were familiar with literature, myth, and history. sometimes, in trying to be "reasonable', we reveal our own unreasoned biases and the limitations of our data.

i say this in all humility, as a guy in a local tavern.


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[Diana]

somzzetimes, in trying to be "reasonable', we reveal our own unreasoned biases and the limitations of our data.

i say this in all humility, as a guy in a local tavern.

Whole post approved with a nod.

I'm a living example of unreasoned biases and limitations of data. I think I've shown this multiple times since I joined these boards a few months ago. They should make a statue of me I think - sort of as an example to others to warn them of what happens when one makes even feeble attempts to stand on the shoulders of giants. The less I know, the less I know I know.

Na zdrowie

[chiscotheque]

...the less I know I know.

i know, right? luckily, less is more.

[Diana]

As we were talking about the Hanged Man in this thread, yesterday I had a sudden thought and it didn't leave me. Would the Hanged Man be a representation of some sort of Crucifixion. Not in the literal sense of hanging someone on a cross with nails or ropes, but the meaning often attributed in spiritual terms of the need to "deny oneself" to reach the kingdom.

This would fit in with the reading here. Another benefit. Deny yourself - i.e. let your ego die - which leads to a symbolic death (the card after The Hanged Man).

Through mind altering substances, the ego loses its power. It happens also to some extent with marijuana, but never so radically as with LSD or mushrooms (which are the only two strong substances I experimented with in my youth). My experience of reading the Tarot with marijuana and without it is very different (which is not just a thing of my youth but current). Both seem valid .. but have different colourings. Even different insights. There is a gentleness with the green magic that there isn't without it. A kind of a flow, like a stream that flows and we just let ourselves be carried on the water.

[chiscotheque]

As we were talking about the Hanged Man in this thread, yesterday I had a sudden thought and it didn't leave me. Would the Hanged Man be a representation of some sort of Crucifixion. Not in the literal sense of hanging someone on a cross with nails or ropes, but the meaning often attributed in spiritual terms of the need to "deny oneself" to reach the kingdom.

This would fit in with the reading here. Another benefit. Deny yourself - i.e. let your ego die - which leads to a symbolic death (the card after The Hanged Man).

this is one of the fundamental ways in which i interpret the hanged Man. one might also call it the dark night of the soul. in gnostic terms, the man is upside down in a world that is upside down - therefore he is properly oriented, on the precipice of awakening (to continue with the upside-down analogy: we are born seeing the world upside down - images projected in the eyeball are wrong way up - but we learn to correct this and see the world "right way up").

in the Beatles Tarot, i explicitly allude to the ego-death of LSD on the Death card -

John actually experienced an ego death on an acid trip, which destabilized him for quite a while. here, we see him "playing dead", which not only alludes to this ego death but, eerily, to his own assassination years later. the book john holds is "the Psychedelic Experience" by Timothy Leary based on the Tibetan Book of the Dead, which John read and used for the lyrics to Tomorrow Never Knows. the date at the bottom of the card, November 9, is the date john first met yoko and "coincidentally" the date Paul was supposed to die - all that "Paul is Dead" stuff. the partially eaten apple refers to the Beatles company - Apple - but also to the Fall's forbidden fruit of the Tree of Life.


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[Diana]

this is one of the fundamental ways in which i interpret the hanged Man. one might also call it the dark night of the soul. in gnostic terms, the man is upside down in a world that is upside down - therefore he is properly oriented, on the precipice of awakening (to continue with the upside-down analogy: we are born seeing the world upside down - images projected in the eyeball are wrong way up - but we learn to correct this and see the world "right way up").

Would this be necessarily and always be a dark night of the soul ? Surely it would be more of a dark night of the ego... it's the ego who has absolutely no interest in dying and will fight to its teeth to not be relegated to oblivion. I've always found a bit odd this poetic expression "dark night of the soul". The soul can't be dark.

In my spiritual practice, there is a lot of emphasis on the need to die daily. There have been times when this dying has been hard - really hard, but there have also been many times when the sheer joy of seeing the ego fade away into its nothingness has been full of light and peace. It happens before the death itself. Maybe it's a light softer version of an NDE ?

I had NO idea about babies and their seeing the world upside down. That is quite fascinating. I went to read up a bit about it. What a surprise to hear this. Maybe this is why very young children can write and read upside down. Even sideways. When my granddaughter started to write letters of the alphabet when she about 4, she would write them indiscriminately both the right way round, sideways or upside down. Even today at 5 she sometimes does it, but less and less. Little kids seem to have a different spatial perception.

John actually experienced an ego death on an acid trip, which destabilized him for quite a while. here, we see him "playing dead", which not only alludes to this ego death but, eerily, to his own assassination years later. the book john holds is "the Psychedelic Experience" by Timothy Leary based on the Tibetan Book of the Dead, which John read and used for the lyrics to Tomorrow Never Knows. the date at the bottom of the card, November 9, is the date john first met yoko and "coincidentally" the date Paul was supposed to die - all that "Paul is Dead" stuff. the partially eaten apple refers to the Beatles company - Apple - but also to the Fall's forbidden fruit of the Tree of Life.

Thanks a million for all that info. It was worth coming to CoT this evening.

[Monk]

Dear Diana,

I felt reluctant to post a reply to this thread as you sought reflection on the reading and did not ask for a lesson in psychedelics.
Still I think you might find the following insightful when interpreting your reading:

It would be wrong to compare the use of psychedelic substance to e.g. drinking alcohol. Alcohols effect wears off, and most epiphanies are simply forgotten once sober. (short acting) tryptamines such as the various forms of DMT (di-methyl-tryptamine) are a class of psychotropic substances which's effect doesn't simply "wear off". DMT is by no means a "sedating" substance, nor is it possible to become even addicted in the slightest of ways like with alcohol and nicotine. DMT is often referred to as the "Spirit Molecule" or the "God Molecule". There are many sources of DMT but each is more or less the same. It awakens a light that can never be extinguished.

Imagine experiencing a level of consciousness that is absolutely and completely devoid of time.
-or-
Imagine being awake and fully conscious but without the "Ego" part of our psyche.
-or-
Being "reborn", ..the experience of being a metaphysical "cloud" that descends back into a human "jacket" defies each and every aspect of imagination.

Just three profound characteristics of DMT on the brain. There's much more, much much more. We meet people, cuddle with our spirit animals, float about the stars, have bodies flow together as if they were two droplets joining, meet god, ancestors, see future children, learn to speak languages instantly, flip through layers of consciousness as if it were a small booklet.. there is much much much more. It is Profound. Period.

Hanged Man

Very clear card indeed!
I say this in contrast to your 4th paragraph explaining the Hanged Man card: The psychedelic experience offers profound, lasting insight. It is not the passing around of a joint that covers the tradition. So I'd rather say the HM is enlightened, he is VERY much in control suspended/uplifted by his own choice and will. He is in an unnatural state, and skilfully performed! ..and the Hermit looks upon him in awe.

Hermit

He may be even helping or guiding, maybe even praising him by holding up his lantern set with a star. (Star: spiritual connection!)
You read the Hermit card as a downside, I would say that my interpretation of the Hermit might tell something. An aspect I attribute to the Hermit is that of (temporarily) withdrawing (to reflect) from the public (or closer to -or- inside oneself!) So what if this reflects upon the fact that the psychedelic experience is a deep solo expedition into the psyche. Yes it can be scary! One can find heavy insights there, things we're not ready for yet. And, forget not: one is there "Alone" and secluded in ones mind. It takes courage to experience an intense psychedelic experience as the kind I am talking about is NOT recreational. They are devine states of deep trance that one has to see to a useful end BY ONE SELF... Not every one is capable of doing that.

I say that last thing as at higher dosages one actually experiences things as inexistance of time, ego-death, NDE, OOBE. You may imagine that experiencing that leaves deep marks in one's psyche. Going through that, learning from it and taking up the complimentary self-knowledge is nothing short of life changing. Every time again. And you wil not forget about it let me tell you

So if there were a "downside" it would be the profound shaking of ones fundaments. There are no lies on that side of reality. so buckle up.

Emperor

Sucking up these incredible new perspectives on the self, the self in space time, the ego in the body, VASTLY extends every dimension of our (spiritual) being. An improved being, grown, ripened, complete ...The Emperor. Long lasting insight put to responsible and balanced use.

Nice Subject! And always food for thought.

<3

[Diana]

Very very insightful Monk. I'll respond probably tomorrow. Thank you.

Btw, the readings on Plato's Cave serve as a basis for discussion, not so much for help with interpretation of the readings - they're sort a springboard. So your post and all its comments were very appropriate and welcome.

[Joan Marie]

I'm going to dip my toe into this conversation. Forgive my clumsy attempt.

Right away I see the Hanged Man and the Emperor as opposites. Their legs are positioned the same odd way but the Emperor is right-side-up.

I agree with the general idea that the HM has attained a state of grace. (upside)
The Hermit, has no one to really share this with. He's stuffed all this newfound enlightenment into his lamp that no one sees. (downside)
The Emperor, although he hasn't forgotten the experience, was unable to apply it in any real way, and just ended up like he was before, the upright version of the HM.

So the original question, "What role do mind altering substances such as LSD, mushrooms, marijuana…. play in spiritual development and enlightenment," I would see the answer here is they can open the door, but for any real positive change to take hold requires much more than just the drug experience. A person needs a way to articulate, share how what happened really changed them, if only to understand it better themselves. And this is not so simple. You can say, "I realised that we are all part of the same thing"...(or some similar kind of statement) but it's what you do with that information, how you expand on its real meaning for you that will have a lasting effect.

It's like the drug experience gives you the title of the book, and maybe some of the outline. But then you have to write the book.

Or you just end up right side up again, and not really as "changed" by the experience as you think.

[Monk]

I'm going to dip my toe into this conversation. Forgive my clumsy attempt.

Right away I see the Hanged Man and the Emperor as opposites. Their legs are positioned the same odd way but the Emperor is right-side-up.


Platos cave substances.jpg



I agree with the general idea that the HM has attained a state of grace. (upside)
The Hermit, has no one to really share this with. He's stuffed all this newfound enlightenment into his lamp that no one sees. (downside)
The Emperor, although he hasn't forgotten the experience, was unable to apply it in any real way, and just ended up like he was before, the upright version of the HM.

So the original question, "What role do mind altering substances such as LSD, mushrooms, marijuana…. play in spiritual development and enlightenment," I would see the answer here is they can open the door, but for any real positive change to take hold requires much more than just the drug experience. A person needs a way to articulate, share how what happened really changed them, if only to understand it better themselves. And this is not so simple. You can say, "I realised that we are all part of the same thing"...(or some similar kind of statement) but it's what you do with that information, how you expand on its real meaning for you that will have a lasting effect.

It's like the drug experience gives you the title of the book, and maybe some of the outline. But then you have to write the book.

Or you just end up right side up again, and not really as "changed" by the experience as you think.

I very much agree, we get things shown (in alternative) reality that inspire us to thoughts and actions. And the only thing that counts is what we "take home from it" and how we implement it in our spirit.

Very interesting interpretation of the Emp being the upright mirror image of the HM.. so quite the opposite of the "skilfully experiencing" subject..
He may be the "sober" mirror image on his side of the mirror. In this light I would not see him as not having been able to implement insights gathered, rather that he's back in reality and having to deal with the "actual" in stead of the metaphysical.

<3

[Diana]

Gosh.. how could I have missed the mirror of the Emperor and Hanged Man !! I even spoke in quite length about the way the Emperor's legs are crossed, and also the Hanged Man's. But I didn't connect them properly.

How silly of me. No chocolate for me tonight - that should teach me a lesson.

Somehow I am reminded of the Magician in Valentin Tomberg's book "Meditations on the Tarot". I will have to go and read that chapter again to see what aspect of the Magician reminds me of this.

[Joan Marie]

He may be the "sober" mirror image on his side of the mirror. In this light I would not see him as not having been able to implement insights gathered, rather that he's back in reality and having to deal with the "actual" in stead of the metaphysical.

I like that. I still would wonder though, what role the Hermit played between them.

I think that when I saw him with sceptor in hand and fancy threads, he'd gone back to his old capitalist ways.

[Monk]

He may be the "sober" mirror image on his side of the mirror. In this light I would not see him as not having been able to implement insights gathered, rather that he's back in reality and having to deal with the "actual" in stead of the metaphysical.

I like that. I still would wonder though, what role the Hermit played between them.

I think that when I saw him with sceptor in hand and fancy threads, he'd gone back to his old capitalist ways.

Well, if we didnt't make things to complicated and started taking things pretty straightforward:

In Diana's reading she took card two for the downside of the experience. The card Hermit would be sort of analogy for the experience right?
>>An analogy seeing the experience in the context of its downsides. So indeed personal/character traits of the Hermit would signify aspects.
So: card one and two both describe one and the same experience, just from different perspectives. The reading just states that the Hermit "perspective" could be a negative tone to the (psychedelic) experience. I know it is personal but I would read from the card in this context that feeling of being on one own. Secluded, hermetic, one one own, with ones own thoughts, relying one one own without the help of others. That might be considered a down side when dealing with intense psychological/psychotropic stuff

It takes a lot of effort and insight to deal with this kind of powerful experience.
Thats why I read the Emperor as fitting a conclusion.
He is the result of efforts channeled in a fruitful way.
Established.

[Diana]

He may be the "sober" mirror image on his side of the mirror. In this light I would not see him as not having been able to implement insights gathered, rather that he's back in reality and having to deal with the "actual" in stead of the metaphysical.

I like that. I still would wonder though, what role the Hermit played between them.

I think that when I saw him with sceptor in hand and fancy threads, he'd gone back to his old capitalist ways.

In mystical terminology, there is an expression which is "living between two worlds". The mystic as long as he remains on this plane of existence, is constantly going from one world to another and then back again. The spiritual dimension and the other dimension. It's not always very easy for different reasons.

It's not so much that he cannot implement the insights gathered, but that the two worlds don't meet so he can't. Not in the way that "this world" can understand anyway. "My kingdom is not of THIS world". That's a quote from Jesus but can be found said in different terms in almost all great spiritual teachings and traditions.

The Hermit may be the bridge between these two worlds. The light that guides them safely like a ferryman.

That's one way of looking at it.

Oh and that's funny Joan Marie about his old capitalistic ways. You did make me chuckle. (You know how much I hate capitalists I think!!!)

[Monk]

In mystical terminology, there is an expression which is "living between two worlds". The mystic as long as he remains on this plane of existence, is constantly going from one world to another and then back again. The spiritual dimension and the other dimension. It's not always very easy for different reasons.

Yes, you reach out and hit! Exactly how I see it! And indeed this concept of a mystical multiverse is onmipresent throughout many cultures.
Not the least being the Native Americans that practically invented traversing them by mans of psychotropical substances.
In their shamanistic traditions a barrier between the pshychological multiverse is indeed sort of blocked by a "crack" between the two.
And it takes great training working with this crack and being able to traverse from one to the other mental plane.

And this is also beautifully delved into in "A Yaqui Way Of Knowledge

The Hermit may be the bridge between these two worlds. The light that guides them safely like a ferryman.

Yes, he could be the ferryman, and therefore also a "traveller". Accompanying the "other" traveller (Hanged Man)
He is therefore indeed literally bridging the two worlds moving from one into the other and back.

[Diana]

I've been giving these new insights into the original reading a lot of thought. And I stick with my original interpretation. And will explain why.

1) It's always been a bit of a sticky issue - when people reinterpret a reader's reading, however talented the reinterpreter is. Although new insights can be welcome additions. Because the reader normally has established a very unique and special relationship with the Tarot and the cards. In my case, it almost seems that there is some kind of "convention" established for some cards. For instance, in all my years with the Tarot, the Star has always without exception or shadow, never shown its negative aspect. It's sort of as if the Tarot and I decided once that the Star means all is well and bright and beautiful. It's surprising, but that is how the Tarot and I work together. Now how could anyone who is re-interpreting a reading for me know this ? It's personal so they can't.

If I had made such a serious error in my interpretation I would have realised it by now. Or felt it (like once in a Plato's Cave reading, when I corrupted the meaning and disrespected the Wheel of Fortune - I will never forget that day.)

2) The Hermit is a downside. He can't be a bridge therefore. A bridge would be something positive - a helping hand - a shepherd guiding his flock. I deliberately chose the position "downside" to make it unambiguous. I didn't want any flip-flopping so I chose words like "benefits" and "downsides" to reflect this. The Hermit is however a gentle downside - which is a further indication that there are benefits to taking mind-altering substances (by the way Monk, you mentioned alcohol - naturally I was not including alcohol in my reading which is not a mind altering substance, but a brain altering substance). The downside for the Hanged Man is that the Hermit will not join the Hanged Man on his rope. The Hermit has a lantern instead - he can take it everywhere he goes and doesn't need to even go and stock up with the local salesman for new paraffin or oil. It's always lit - it's the perpetual flame that guards his inner temple.

3) In my reading, the Emperor meant solidity and stability. Emperors rule over their kingdom and have absolute authority. The Hanged Man needs to climb down from his tree, leave the rope behind and go off with the Hermit to the mountain (his higher consciousness) in order to reach this state. There is a sense of movement and of travel and of a saying good-bye.

I refused to put any of my own wishes and desires into this thread. I started out almost hoping that the Tarot would tell us that there is a way through material means to reach full enlightenment. Would have been nifty. It's always nice when the cooking is done for us and we can just sit at the table and enjoy the delicious food.

But I think the Tarot is clear. We can go so far... even very far.... even very very far as Monk has described with mind altering substances. But the last part of the journey must be made alone. With our lantern which is only a symbolic lantern.

There. That's it.