Cult of Tarot Forum

I just started exploring the I-Ching and I am really taken with it.

At first I was just figuring out how it works. And then once I did that (it's pretty simple really) I started with some deeper questions and I'm really finding it so profound.

if you aren't familiar, here is a real quick (and slightly incomplete) description of how it works:

You take 3 coins, all the same and with a definite heads/tails.
You hold a question in mind and shake and toss the coins, like dice.
The combination you get will yield either a solid line or a broken line. It's binary code basically, like 1's and Zeros.
You do this six times and the result is a hexagram, comprised of 2 parts, each made of 3 lines (solid or broken)
There are 64 possible hexagrams and each corresponds to a word/number and then you consult a guide for what that word means and there's your answer. I'm currently using this website as my lookup resource: http://divination.com/iching/lookup/

I just want to share one I did this morning.

About a week ago I discovered this abandoned nest in my garden:


It stayed with me. I was thinking about it this morning and decided to ask the I Ching what that nest symbolised.
I threw the coins and here is what I got:




These two symbols (thunder and heaven) combined mean: Innocence.
Interesting concept, no?

There was a really beautiful passage about the meaning of innocence, but just on my own, I thought about those poor little eggs, abandoned. Then I recalled when I first discovered the nest I looked up why this happens, why does a bird abandon a nest like that and I learned that very often it is because it is the first clutch of eggs from that bird and they are too young to know what to do, too young to be a mother yet.

This made me think of, well a lot of things.

We often attach guilt and regret to things we really couldn't help. We are hard on ourselves forgetting that we were young, inexperienced and in over our heads.

Suddenly this abandoned nest took on all sorts of meaning to me. So many levels.

So, I'm really finding the I Ching to be quite an experience already.

Anyone else here throw the coins?

It's also a beautiful compliment to tarot reading.

Wonderful post JM.

The I-Ching is profound, to say the least.
The readings can be very unsettling because there's no sugar-coating, just as it is with the Tarot.

Although I've never attempted this, I believe a dual reading with both systems would be most elucidating, the best of the East meets West methodology.

I haven't used the I-Ching in years, although I do have a standing order from this very reliable vendor who has expanded their inventory to include very lovely and practical storage tubes (there are 2 types of tubes), amongst other items of related interest.

https://www.etsy.com/shop/LPKaster?ref= ... =253634415

I've never used the coin method, I (personally) prefer the more methodical and meditative Yarrow stalk method, but to each their own.

Book: The I Ching - Bollingen Series XIX, Princeton Univ. Press 1977
Yarrow stalk divination - pages 721 - 723

The "Coin Oracle" methodology is detailed at the bottom of page 723 and continues to page 724.

I use cards, the Tao Oracle. Draw 2 cards and read the changing lines between them. Or try to at least. I also came up with a spread for cards that shows the various hexes you get by changing around the lines. (Stolen and "improved" from Total I Ching by Stephen Karcher.)

I agree that I Ching is very deep and also very practical. Sometimes a bit too straightforward!

I have a whole slew of books, but for actual readings I use The Complete I Ching by Alfred Huang.

Rachelcat wrote: ↑21 May 2020, 13:01 I have a whole slew of books, but for actual readings I use The Complete I Ching by Alfred Huang.

Thanks for this recommendation.

I discovered I ching recently (thanks to B Wen Awesome Methaphysician Daily planner guide!:)& fell in love with her interpretations!:)
also find this great book online as great free resource: http://www.pantherwebworks.com/i_ching/index.html#hints
& now looking for good deck!:)

My boyfriend went and got the nest for me.
The eggs are hollow, nothing in them.

My first real I Ching reading has a tangible artifact.
I'm not sure what to do with it but I love it.
(I added the little pinecones. They were sitting on my desk.

So, I’ve had a change of heart and decided to purchase three I-Ching card decks along with coins. I’m waiting to receive all three decks.

My stodgy old school philosophy was, cards are out of the question, it simply isn’t done.

However, it occurred to me that all three techniques will achieve the same level of random selection, so there really isn’t any difference between manipulating yarrow stalks, tossing coins or shuffling cards. All three will provide the desired objective results.

I-Ching Oracle Cards / Lunaea Weatherstone / Llewellyn Publications

Nine Dragons’ I-Ching Oracle / Omi Romi / pyroskin.com

Visionary I - Ching Cards / Joan Larimore - Paul O’Brien / Blue Angel Publishing

I already posted a notice about the Visionary I-Ching Cards in the New Deck Announcements thread and of the three, this is the most thought provoking.

Ms. Larimore’s artwork is ethereal and works seamlessly with Paul O’Brien’s system of meanings and advices that mirror the Wilhelm/Baynes translations.

Mr. O’Brien succeeds in distilling the essence of the Wilhelm/Baynes translations into a vernacular that should resonate with a broader 21st century audience.

This is not to say that the venerable Princeton Univ. Press edition was never accessible, on the contrary, but the O’Brien transcription is to be applauded for maintaining the integrity of the Wilhelm/Baynes treatise in addition to conveying its collective wisdom for a new generation of readers who seek a modern and possibly more pragmatic perspective.

The Nine Dragons’ I-Ching Oracle has tiny suggested meanings in the borders, which at first glance seem unobtrusive enough.
The layout is quite sumptuous, featuring a pattern taken from what appears to be an antique (possibly Imperial) painting. Since the central figure features a dragon with 5 claws, we may assume Imperial provenance, or at least a reasonable facsimile.

The Llewellyn I-Ching Oracle Cards are lovely and sophisticated, and borderless.
I chose this deck purely for aesthetic reasons (just as I did with the Nine Dragons’)

An earlier printing of this deck had borders……good riddance to the borders.

The face of the cards feature segments of ancient scroll paintings in black ink and sepia backgrounds, which provide a perfect backdrop for the black hexagrams.

I think the art director was Isa Donelli?

I haven’t read the Lunaea Weatherstone text for this deck, I will soon enough, although the Amazon reviews have not been favorable.
I’m not even sure if this is supposed to be a boxed set or just a tuck box with a standard LWB.
It would be nice if Llewellyn had provided a more comprehensive product description for Amazon.

Thank Heaven for Wilhelm/Baynes.

I will post side-by-side card comparisons when I receive all 3 decks, which may not be until the end of June or early July .

There's a free app for the Visionary I - Ching Cards / Joan Larimore - Paul O’Brien / Blue Angel Publishing - I downloaded it to my Kindle Fire yesterday. Unfortunately it's incomplete - one can browse 10 cards and their meanings, and throw/spin the coins digitally for the 'present' reading, see the card and read the meaning, but the process to reach the 'future' hexagram painting and text is unavailable until one clicks to update the app by paying a mystery price that is "...less than two cups of coffee." It depends, I suppose, on where you drink or buy the coffee, but I really dislike this sort of marketing, although I'd already pre-ordered the cards with guidebook from Amazon - it's not available until August here in the UK.

So, being a bit of a purist, I spent ages yesterday looking for my Chinese I Ching coins (it's about 30 years since I last saw them, and the translated Wilhelm book) but they must be here somewhere...!

One weird thing - I found a link on the site yesterday that allowed me a test reading complete with spinning coins and after looking up the hexagram it arrived at #24: Returning. I can access that card and the meaning again via my PC History, but the link itself has disappeared - I suppose they only allow one to do that once.

Pen wrote: ↑31 May 2020, 13:02 There's a free app for the Visionary I - Ching Cards / Joan Larimore - Paul O’Brien / Blue Angel Publishing - I downloaded it to my Kindle Fire yesterday. Unfortunately it's incomplete - one can browse 10 cards and their meanings, and throw/spin the coins digitally for the 'present' reading, see the card and read the meaning, but the process to reach the 'future' hexagram painting and text is unavailable until one clicks to update the app by paying a mystery price that is "..less than two cups of coffee." It depends, I suppose, on where you drink or buy the coffee, but I really dislike this sort of marketing,

I dislike those sort of marketing strategies as well.
Thank you for providing this information. Perhaps you should reach out to Blue Angel, not that I expect it will do much good.
After all, they did have to pay programmers to write the code.

However, I still won't discourage anybody from (pre) ordering the cards and book, IMHO, it's an exceptionally well thought out publication with great merit.

Personally I dislike reading on small computer screens, so I don't bother with Kindle et al. and I have only one app purely out of absolute necessity.

With that being said, computer apps for Tarot and such are completely off the radar for me.
I'm sure there are many people who will disagree (yes, we can agree to disagree), but the programming parameters for many apps are extremely limited, hence very little possibility for the sort of 100% random "draw" or "throw" you achieve with physical stalks, coins or cards.

If you play any number of downloadable, non-VR computer games often enough, you will recognize the parameters and repeating patterns that offer few variables.

Pen wrote: ↑31 May 2020, 13:02 although I'd already pre-ordered the cards with guidebook from Amazon - it's not available until August here in the UK.

So, being a bit of a purist, I spent ages yesterday looking for my Chinese I Ching coins (it's about 30 years since I last saw them, and the translated Wilhelm book) but they must be here somewhere...!

Often, the old fashion way is still the best.
You might say that your Wilhelm/Baynes and coins are "hard copy backups" LOL, which is true in one sense, but I prefer to look upon them as the original tried and true. Digital 1's and 0's will never have the same look and feel, at least not in our life times.

Pen wrote: ↑31 May 2020, 13:02 One weird thing - I found a link on the site yesterday that allowed me a test reading complete with spinning coins and after looking up the hexagram it arrived at #24: Returning. I can access that card and the meaning again via my PC History, but the link itself has disappeared - I suppose they only allow one to do that once.

Kudos to you for having such patience, keep looking for your book and coins

I've unfortunately had almost no time to be online recently, but wanted to pop my head in to say hello by chiming in that I enjoy the I-Ching too. Nice to see the discussion here.

(If of interest, a couple of online resources I like -- If I want to quickly compare the variety of names different English speaking authors have used for hexagrams, this page is handy.

Nigel Richmond's daughter allowed Joel Biroco to post his two books, and one is generally expensive from used sellers, while the second, The I Ching Oracle, isn't available anywhere else that I know of, so I mention it for that reason. Those are here.)

The I Ching literature is vast, but I would like to make a couple (or 3) recommendations, one of which is for this pleasant and insightful read: https://www.yjcn.nl/wp/the-lost-work-of ... -sherrill/
and another, more in keeping with the divinatory/practical advice aspect of the I Ching, being “The Pocket I Ching” by Gary Melyan and Wen-kuan Chu (also published under different names. Don’t get the Kindle edition, according to the Amazon reviews, the tables are missing or not formatted properly). This book gives the divinatory meanings (or let’s say advice) for a number of areas of human activity, and represents the way in which the I Ching is most commonly used in fortune-telling (or for consultation) in China and elsewhere in East Asia. Not many western-published books go into this aspect, so it is worth pointing out.

Chu and Sherrill also wrote a couple of other easily available books, of which “An Anthology of I Ching” contains an introduction which will also be of interest to those with a preference towards Tarot rather than the Book of Changes for the insights it brings on the process of consulting the oracle.

Thank you both Rose Lalonde and _R_ for your insightful contributions to this thread and providing such valuable resources to the CoT forum. It is greatly appreciated!

Papageno wrote: ↑02 Jun 2020, 04:21 Thank you both Rose Lalonde and _R_ for your insightful contributions to this thread and providing such valuable resources to the CoT forum. It is greatly appreciated!

Yes, many thanks to you both - the links and info are much appreciated.

I've spent some time on Online Clarity today - aptly named, with some good advice on different aspects of I Ching. The link takes you to the book recommendation page, but there's more advice on books and questions to ask (and how to ask them) on other pages, as well as a forum - much to learn for those who like to explore the depths...

Well, unsuccessful in my search for the missing Chinese coins and unwilling to use anything else, I weakened and updated the free version of the Visionary I Ching app (£6.99), and used it this afternoon. Strangely the very same hexagram came up for the present reading (#24, Returning), with #21, Cutting Through, for the future reading. Although I'm something of a purist, I do like the process very much. The coin spinning is strangely satisfying and truly random, as you spin by tapping the screen and stop in the same way when you like (6 times), and the paintings are lovely, especially seen on the Kindle Fire screen with the light shining through. The cards and book are still on pre-order, but I'll probably think of a reason not to cancel as I haven't bought any cards for aeons.

I do a very brief I Ching reading at every private session I do, although never at psychic fairs because it takes up too much time and because of the materials I use it takes up too much space on the table. I am by no means an expert on the I Ching and the reading I do only lasts around 5 minutes! However, by doing so it helps me when I go on to the Tarot cards for reasons which would be too complicated to explain. I do find this very valuable.

The truth of the matter is that many years ago I purchased a fortune telling kit which had a lot of very useful and varied items which I just can't recall any more. I do remember it had 2 lovely posters which I seem to have lost somewhere over the years. However, it had some very basic I Ching material which I have used for about 30 years or so. It consisted of three Chinese coin, a beautiful coloured chart with all the numbers thereon plus a large card with a few key sentences from each chapter of the I Ching. It hardly makes me an I Ching master but I do find it very useful indeed. For some mysterious reason it will answer any question the client asks even though the few sentences are written in slightly obscure language from centuries ago.

I have on occasion used manuscripts and books with more modern language but it just doesn't work the same somehow. I know very little about the I Ching but I will say the tiny bit I do know helps me to at least do a five minute reading and they seem to love it!

mark lewis wrote: ↑07 Jun 2020, 03:16 I am by no means an expert on the I Ching and the reading I do only lasts around 5 minutes! However, by doing so it helps me when I go on to the Tarot cards for reasons which would be too complicated to explain. I do find this very valuable.

If I grasp your meaning, perhaps what you're benefiting from is the I-Ching oracle providing structure and establishing the parameters, or groundwork so to speak, for your Tarot reading, thereby helping you to frame the question you're asking.
Maybe it helps you recognize the right question you should focus on.

Maybe I'm completely wrong about all that and the oracle simply helps you meditate, or all of the above or some combination thereof . Yes, sometimes it's very difficult to put into words.

Tarot reader/author, Tom Benjamin, discusses the use of oracles in conjunction with Tarot readings:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHc1Lqh ... 77&t=1247s

He begins to introduce this idea about half way through the video somewhere around 22:07.

The last sentence of your first paragraph is the correct answer. It does indeed help me to recognise the right question to focus on. Come to think of it that is also why I usually read the client's palm first before going on to the tarot. They don't even have to say a word. By the time I finish reading the palm I have picked up not just one question to focus on but several. If I then do the I Ching it compounds the insight I have gathered. I do give the client the option of saying out loud what the question is or keeping it to themselves. Usually they will say it out loud since they will feel comfortable doing so because they will be impressed with the palm reading and be less guarded with me.

To be honest I actually find it quite difficult to read the Tarot without doing the palm first. This is a weakness of mine. I can of course do it but somehow I find it trickier. Just lately I have been considering a method where I can do it. After all everyone else seems to be able to! However, I have always borne in mind what a psychic fair promoter once told me. He thought the strongest combination for a reader to use at a psychic fair was the palm combined with the tarot. I have generally found that to be absolutely true.

Incidentally, here is a video of me doing a palm reading at a psychic fair for a New Age Journalist. The comments underneath kept talking about my "ASMR". To be honest I hadn't the slightest idea what on earth that was and had to look it up. So much for my psychic ability!

mark lewis wrote: ↑07 Jun 2020, 11:28 To be honest I actually find it quite difficult to read the Tarot without doing the palm first.

I don't want to stray too far off I Ching in this thread, but since you brought up palmistry and how you use it in your readings, you might be interested in this thread:
viewtopic.php?f=204&t=1607

There is some really good information about using Palmistry as a way into understanding a client.
In this case, for practicing hypnosis and trance therapy. But I think it can be applied to a lot of things.

(Feel free to carry on the palmistry discussion there.)

Yes. I did look at that thread before. Very interesting information.

I-Ching Apps for a uniquely 21st century approach

I-Ching Apps

I believe the Haindl Tarot, which Rachel Pollack wrote the book for, allots an I Ching hexagram to each card. Each card even includes runes, astrological symbols, and letters of the Jewish alphabet. It would take lots of work to be able to use that deck, I should think, but interesting to have those different systems overlapping and informing one another. I don't know the I Ching but I wonder if there are any other books and decks out there that establish a sort of crossover link between the hexagrams and the cards.

Not many people in the tarot community seem to know about Geomancy, though ideas and shapes from it occur in the Thoth deck, but that system of divination seems to me, visually at least, to resemble a very simplified western version of the I Ching hexagrams.

I read a book once about the I Ching by the great Fred Gettings, who claimed that we in the west tend to have a very watered down idea of the actual complexity of the system, which apparently requires years of study and a facility for manipulating complex combinations of poetic images and philosophical concepts. Gettings thought that the beauty of the tarot was that anyone could learn it in a few days(!) whereas the I Ching took many years. Since it took me years to get my head around the tarot, that passage of Gettings is probably what discouraged me from ever studying the I Ching. It seems so deeply embedded in the Chinese way of looking at the world that I wondered if I could make much headway with it. But it's fun to read even tea leaves or so why not read with a stripped down version of the I Ching?

I have that same feeling sometimes about the Tarot de Marseille: that it is so much an expression of the French psyche that I am probably missing nine-tenths of what someone French gets out of it.

dodalisque wrote: ↑09 Jun 2020, 02:23Not many people in the tarot community seem to know about Geomancy, though ideas and shapes from it occur in the Thoth deck, but that system of divination seems to me, visually at least, to resemble a very simplified western version of the I Ching hexagrams.

I practice geomancy and while I’m newer to it, all the references to the I Ching I’ve come across in the geomancy world is that the two systems are a case of parallel evolution and aside from the binary nature of the symbols used, there’s no meaningful overlap between them.

I would recommend that anyone who is considering checking out the I Ching try geomancy first or in addition. It’s an excellent companion to tarot and with only 16 figures to work with is easy to pick up (although like anything worth doing it takes years to master).

Regarding the Haindl, I used to own this deck years ago, sans the 2 Rachel Pollack books, so my appreciation for this deck was (severely) limited to a deep admiration for the profound artistry.

The approach to the creation of the Haindl was unique and deeply personal, and I don’t think it’s too far off the mark to describe this as an idiosyncratic tarot deck that requires dedicated study if one is to actually use it for readings and/or meditation.

It can certainly be enjoyed purely as an exquisite art deck, but even in this vein I think R. Pollack’s books are a necessity.

Unless, as a collector, you demand a first edition of both the deck and the Pollack books, I would recommend the revised editions of her books for both the Major and Minor Arcana. Sometimes, revised editions offer new perspectives and insights that we’re previously overlooked.

Geomancy, yikes, you better start a whole new thread for that discussion.

Actually, the I-Ching hexagrams are liberally sprinkled throughout the deck, but not represented on each and every card. Various esoteric symbols are displayed in conjunction with each other, in a variety of combinations.

For more in-depth analysis, Bennebell Wen offers some insights:

Haindl Tarot Review - Benebell Wen

Regarding an attempt to make direct correspondences between the I-Ching Hexagrams and Tarot cards, this would be an ambitious and highly debatable endeavor.

I had briefly considered this myself, however, it occurs to me that the correspondences would be predicated upon any individuals interpretation of the cards, and then you have to consider which school of thought you want to use as a basis, ie. TdM, RWS, Thoth, etc.

Equally important, I suspect that the use of a just a single hexagram may not be appropriate, although that is the approach taken by Hermann Haindl, not to say that he is to be faulted for this.

I think the same can be said of the Runes and the Kabbalah, although there are countless artists who use solitary esoteric symbols as designations for a particular card.

Definitive incorporation of any of these highly complex esoteric systems into the Tarot tradition is a daunting task, and quite possibly impossible.

Attributing a single Hexagram, Rune or kabbalistic symbol to a single Tarot card is a highly debatable topic of discussion, IMHO.

Truthfully, the only card that I’ve been 100% satisfied with, one that incorporates the I-Ching Hexagrams, is the Wheel of Fortune card from the Night Sun tarot, wherein the complete set of Hexagrams provides the backdrop.

Crowley assigned hexagrams to the courts. It's very straightforward "air over water," "earth over fire," etc. I had it all typed up years ago, but I think my notes went the way of my old-old computer . . . I'll have to dig out my Book of Thoth again!