I-Ching anyone?

[Rose Lalonde]

Following on from what Rachelcat said... For anyone who has the Asherah Tarot, it shows the Thoth's sixteen I Ching attributions on its court cards.

Crowley decided to forego the Fire, Water and Earth trigrams and go with similarly elemental Thunder, Lake and Mountain. e.g. Thunder is the eldest son, and it allowed Crowley to have the The Arousing (51 thunder over thunder) as the hex for his Knight of Wands instead of The Clinging (30 fire over fire). In the BoT Crowley glosses over the details unless I'm forgetting. He just says things like, "In the Yi King, the fiery part of Fire is represented by the 51st hexagram"

It's straightforward as Rachelcat said, and does reinforce the Thoth's elemental correspondences for the courts.

Mountain - Princesses and Disks
Wind - Princes and Swords
Lake - Queens and Cups
Thunder - Knights and Wands

Court trigram is on top, and suit trigram below to get the hexagram, so the Prince of Cups is Wind over Lake, the Princess of Cups is Mountain over Lake, and the Queen of Swords is Lake over Wind.

Just one way of doing it of course... among those that choose to incorporate I Ching with tarot.

[Joan Marie]

In Benebell Wen's Spirit Keeper's tarot she assigns trigrams to every card.

Scepters (Wands) are alternately Fire and Thunder (Ace = Fire, 2 = Thunder, 3 = Fire etc)
Chalices (Cups) are alternately Water and Wind
Swords are alternately Heaven and Lake
Orbs (Pents, Coins) are alternately Earth and Mountain.

Major Arcana I Ching trigram correspondences, from the "Book of Maps"

And here is here explanation about the "doubles" (click to enlarge)

From "The Book of Maps", by Benebell Wen

I get where Benebell is coming from for the minors, at least in the sense of the trigrams corresponding to the elements (Fire, water, air, earth)

What I am wondering is if these assignations (for all the decks that do them) are arbitrary, or if there is something in the background that would make them agree and make sense?

[Pen]

Papageno wrote: Actually, the I-Ching hexagrams are liberally sprinkled throughout the deck, but not represented on each and every card. Various esoteric symbols are displayed in conjunction with each other, in a variety of combinations.

Haindl has assigned hexagrams to the Minors - ie all cards except the Courts and Aces, so 9 cards in each suit. That's 36 cards with the meanings for those cards in the LWB written by Rachael Pollack seemingly based slightly more on the hexagrams (hex. # and title given in LWB) than the corresponding tarot meanings. As an example, Hexagram 29 (Precipice, Water) appears on the 10 Swords.


From the Haindl/Pollack LWB:

TEN OF SWORDS 29 The Abysmal. A destroyed city is a symbol of the modern world bringing its own ruin. But the clear sky shows a return to spiritual truths. The tips of the swords are broken. Divinatory meanings: Pain, confusion. Personal difficulties. Problems. Reversed: Troubles passing. Relief. Need to rest.

Haindl10Swords.jpg (20.92 KiB) Viewed 3245 times

From the Holitzka LBW

29. PRECIPICE/WATER
Through no fault of your own you have fallen into a critical situation and will need all your strength to escape once more. Solve the problem by following the example of water. Water seeks the easiest course, remains true to its direction after each fall and unwaveringly reaches its end. Follow your principles and make no false compromises. To make real progress you need to understand the problem from within and act upon it in the outside world. This time is extremely instructive and can be of great value for your personal development. Equanimity and optimism in all situations are the best recipe for solving every sort of problem.

NB. This example wasn't exactly a random choice, as I used three Feng Shui coin facsimiles on the 5th June and this was the outcome to a carefully worded question about illustration: What will my experience be like if I...? There were no changing lines. I read through the meanings in two different books - this one and the Holitzer - and decided it was about Covid (rather than my question), and as 'risk-taking' was mentioned that I should be specially careful. Anyway... 2 days ago I tripped when walking over the end of someone's driveway after crossing the road (it was unexpectedly higher than the road) and crashed to the pavement. Luckily I'm fit and strong and fairly lightweight, so a skinned knee, hands and elbow and a few deep bruises that are only just appearing was the only damage. Then first thing this morning (can you believe it...!) I tripped on a trailing throw and fell onto the kitchen rug! No damage this time, and I've been for a long walk with the lovely dog this morning but I can't help wishing that I'd had some changing lines - I can do without this tendency (if it is one...!) being stable.

[Papageno]

In Benebell Wen's Spirit Keeper's tarot she assigns trigrams to every card.

Scepters (Wands) are alternately Fire and Thunder (Ace = Fire, 2 = Thunder, 3 = Fire etc)
Chalices (Cups) are alternately Water and Wind
Swords are alternately Heaven and Lake
Orbs (Pents, Coins) are alternately Earth and Mountain.

I get where Benebell is coming from for the minors, at least in the sense of the trigrams corresponding to the elements (Fire, water, air, earth)

What I am wondering is if these assignations (for all the decks that do them) are arbitrary, or if there is something in the background that would make them agree and make sense?

I don't think Benebell Wen adopts an arbitrary approach to anything she puts her mind to , and with that being said, it only makes sense to refer to the tome-like The Book of Maps and maybe even The Holistic Tarot in conjunction, for further elucidaton.

[Joan Marie]

I don't think Benebell Wen adopts an arbitrary approach to anything she puts her mind to , and with that being said, it only makes sense to refer to the tome-like The Book of Maps and maybe even The Holistic Tarot in conjunction, for further elucidaton.

That was a poor word choice on my part. I'm sure none of them (Haindl, etc) do.

What I meant was, is there consistency between decks (and deck creators) in how the trigrams and hexagrams get assigned or does each one develop their own system?

[Papageno]

What I meant was, is there consistency between decks (and deck creators) in how the trigrams and hexagrams get assigned or does each one develop their own system?

That's a really good question JM, and as my old boss used to say "I only ask good questions"

cherry picking?
honestly, I have no idea. I must admit this is academically way over my head.

Aside from old-school scholars who have spent many decades studying Asian philosophical texts, read all the classics (in original classic calligraphy, not the new simplified calligraphy), recite the texts in perfect Mandarin, cadence , inflection and tonality to match; I suspect that everybody else can (by comparison) only scratch the surface of the I-Ching's wisdom....remember also that there is a strong mathematical element to its structure, not just purely philosophical.

[_R_]

What I meant was, is there consistency between decks (and deck creators) in how the trigrams and hexagrams get assigned or does each one develop their own system?

The short answer is no. No more than astrological or elemental correspondences, there is little to no consensus here, but it doesn't stop people from trying.

[Rachelcat]

Following up on the Crowley courts since I just typed them up for myself.

There are 8 trigrams, often shown in this order.

Crowley uses only four of the eight. He uses the simple rank over suit, so Queen of Wands is Lake over Thunder. Here are his assignments with Wilhelm's hexagram titles.

(Remember Crowley's court titles: Knights are kind of kings and are fire. Princes are kind of knights and are air.)

[_R_]

Jean-Michel David has an interesting take on these I Ching-Tarot adaptations here: https://www.fourhares.com/tarot/dynHexSpread.html

[Papageno]

Jean-Michel David has an interesting take on these I Ching-Tarot adaptations here: https://www.fourhares.com/tarot/dynHexSpread.html

Thank you so very much for providing such an extraordinary resource.

The website provides a plethora of historical, practical and theoretical insights.

I knew I had heard the name of Jean-Michel David somewhere:

Reading The Marseille Tarot / Jean-Michel David

Use this link to purchase the book from lulu.com, the Tarot Heritage website link is outdated:

lulu.com purchase Reading The Marseille Tarot

The Dynamic Hexagramme Tarot Spread is a real gem, creating the spread using the TdM within a modified structure of the I-Ching is extraordinary. I also very much appreciate the views expressed in the deck comparisons.

[Pen]

I've just done a reading with the Visionary I-Ching, the question was 'Direction?' as I'm waiting for some proofs and have many many (mostly mundane and maintenance/clearing-out related) things to do - it all seems too much and I'm stricken with inertia. Both Present and Future were the same - there were no changing lines.

Hexagram 23: Splitting Apart; Mountain Above, Earth Below

Things are not the way they seem: reality appears to be a hall of mirrors, intrigues are multiplying like summer flies, and there are rumours of discontent. It is the time of illusion, disintegration, distrust and deception.

Interesting, because the Haiku I posted two days ago ends with the line: What is illusion? as a response to The Subliminal Tarot Devil card, and Today's Card on CoT is also entitled Illusion. I don't usually think of the Haiku draws as readings, but perhaps they can't help being insights of one kind or another. The guidebook continues:

When you find yourself trapped in a hall of mirrors, it becomes necessary to retrace your steps. return to the familiar; take solace in what is firm and secure. There is no blame in holding back. Indeed, it it your responsibility to keep your strength intact for the period of revival that follows the period of disintegration as surely as dawn follows the night.

There's more, but the Present and Future hexagrams being identical indicates '...that the energies regarding your topic are currently stable without major changes to consider.'

So it seems I can leave the clearing out for the time being...

[sharmaakshay]

its so adorable