Cult of Tarot Forum

I think for a lot of people who use Lenormand, especially beginners, the playing cards with each image are largely disregarded. In fact, on a lot of modern decks the playing cards are left off entirely as if they were totally superfluous.

Holmes has provided us a very generous and complete analysis of the meanings and interpretations of all the numbers on the cards which adds a whole 'nother element to readings.

My question is about the suits, Heart, Diamond, Club and Spade.

I have seen interpretations of the meanings of those suits on Lenormand cards. It's interesting. But I wonder if it strays off into "Tarot-territory" (Tarotitory?) too far using all the tarot correspondences.

For example I have seen explanations that assign elements (Hearts- Water, Clubs _Fire, Diamonds-Earth, Spades - Air) and then proceed to go on how those influence the cards in a Lenormand spread. Additionally, the astrology signs are then connected to their corresponding elements and thus also influence the cards.

My personal feeling is that there must be something to this or why would the playing cards continue to have been included past the time of it's original intention as a game?

But what I am skeptical about is the "Tarot-ization" of Lenormand trap. I think it's pretty well agreed that the 2 systems read entirely differently.

What do you make of the playing cards on the deck? How far do you take the correspondences that are implied?

I have a feeling I might be starting a fight here. I know there are many disparate opinions about this as I can tell from all the different things I read.

I didn't read with Lenormand for a while... .... but I take the card faces into account only for the court cards, when I read them as persons or characteristics - Snake or Lilies. Otherwise I don't even look at them in order not to be confused That doesn't mean I read them as I would in the tarot - it just reminds me that these cards can be person cards.

Wow, I once read a really good book about persons in the Lenormand... have to go and dig a bit to find it.

I don't have much time, but this fairly well documented stuff. The whole Lenormand system is based on playing card reading. That is, the rider is the 9 of Hearts because the 9 of Hearts already represented a set of meanings that the rider card was meant to represent. Suits are useful in Lenormand for 1) being able to quickly tell if a particular suit is in preponderance or, perhaps, absence and 2) for the highly skilled and knowledgable there are certain playing card combinations that might override the visually suggested interpretation. I can recall a reading where the fact that the line was 3 aces was clearly more important than card titles.

It's important to note that the suits don't have necessarily the same meanings as they do in the English speaking world. Clubs, not spades, are the trouble suit in Lenormand.

IIUC, the idea underlying most esoteric correspondences is that, like the material world, the supernatural operates according to a set of consistent laws. Any form of divination would using the same basic mechanism and, therefore, connections can be drawn between them. If you think this is the case, then it makes sense that astrology etc. could be applied to Lenormand, but what does it really add? In what situation would astrologically inflected Lenormand be the most appropriate tool? I see a lot of people put energy into broadening the meanings of the individual Lenormand cards. One wonders if its because they have difficulty reading with precision.

Different tools for different tasks.

Charlie Brown wrote: ↑26 Jun 2019, 15:40 Different tools for different tasks.

This all makes so much sense.

Of course all the correspondences are there. The question is how, when and why to use them.

And to what Nemia said, I can also see how using the court cards is helpful to represent people, when you need that.

To an experienced reader, the playing cards can add just that little bit more precision when needed. I just have never seen any documentation on how to use them with Lenormand. I suppose one would need to understand how to read playing cards on their own before being able to use them with Lenormand.

Joan Marie wrote: Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:43 am
My question is about the suits, Heart, Diamond, Club and Spade.

I have seen interpretations of the meanings of those suits on Lenormand cards. It's interesting. But I wonder if it strays off into "Tarot-territory" (Tarotitory?) too far using all the tarot correspondences.

Your suspicions are correct. There is so much out there that's totally off the rails. I think it's actually more difficult for people to learn Lenormand now than it was when I started and there was little or nothing available in english. Better to google translate german than take the easy path and be misled!

For example I have seen explanations that assign elements (Hearts- Water, Clubs _Fire, Diamonds-Earth, Spades - Air) and then proceed to go on how those influence the cards in a Lenormand spread. Additionally, the astrology signs are then connected to their corresponding elements and thus also influence the cards.

My personal feeling is that there must be something to this or why would the playing cards continue to have been included past the time of it's original intention as a game?

But what I am skeptical about is the "Tarot-ization" of Lenormand trap. I think it's pretty well agreed that the 2 systems read entirely differently.

What do you make of the playing cards on the deck? How far do you take the correspondences that are implied?

I have a feeling I might be starting a fight here. I know there are many disparate opinions about this as I can tell from all the different things I read.

I'm not here to fight, this isn't personal opinion - it's historical facts!

Lenormand originated with Das Spiel der Hoffnung https://www.britishmuseum.org/research/ ... 9&partId=1 and the Alemannic playing cards common to Austria, Germany, Switzerland, Hungary, and parts of Eastern Europe. The suits are hearts, bells, leaves and acorns. These correspond to the suits of hearts (hearts), diamonds (bells), spades (leaves) and clubs (acorns) in Anglo-French cards.

While most Lenormand decks feature Anglo-French suits, the meanings do not correspond to the typical cartomancy methods found in France, Italy, the UK or the US, nor do they correspond to Tarot. Clubs, rather than Spades, are the trouble suit because they're acorns. Nobody bothers with acorns unless they're desperate. So the Clubs suit contains cards like the Fox, Snake, Mountain, Whips, Clouds, Coffin, and Cross. Even more benign-seeming cards like the Bear and Ring are potentially nasty.

Spades are happiness, important relationships, and growth because they're leaves. The Bouquet, Lily, Child, Park, Letter - all spades.

Diamonds are precarious. They talk about finances, concerns about things that could come or go. This is not earthy, comfortable Pentacles - the Queen of Diamonds presides over the fork in the Roads!

Hearts cards are domestic affairs, day to day concerns like changes, affections, aspirations, news, jobs, health and reputation.

So the insets have a purpose, they're vital to understanding the atmosphere and flow of a reading. Lenormand will never click if you try to shoehorn the cards into an occultist-type Tarot model, as they aren't compatible with that. It's a folk tradition rather than an esoteric one, and the geography is important to consider. I highly recommend Andy Boroveshengra's book (again, lol) and Caitlin Matthews'. And this blog post by Mary Greer is relevant to the subject! https://marykgreer.com/2013/10/04/lenor ... e-sources/

Charlie Brown wrote: ↑26 Jun 2019, 15:40 I don't have much time, but this fairly well documented stuff. The whole Lenormand system is based on playing card reading. That is, the rider is the 9 of Hearts because the 9 of Hearts already represented a set of meanings that the rider card was meant to represent.

Exactly this. You don't have to learn an antiquated Alemannic playing card method, because Lenormand IS that method. It's just that the playing cards have been illustrated.

The beauty of it is that it works so well in our own time. The communication cards easily accommodate phones and internet, the Rider can refer to your car as easily as a horse. there is no need to change or update the method. It's utter genius. <3

Joan Marie wrote:To an experienced reader, the playing cards can add just that little bit more precision when needed. I just have never seen any documentation on how to use them with Lenormand. I suppose one would need to understand how to read playing cards on their own before being able to use them with Lenormand.

Anyone who reads Lenormand according to the standard card meanings is reading the playing cards - even though they may not know that!

It all falls apart if you try to use it with Martello, Kapherus, Hedgewytchery, Ana Cortez, or any of the other common playing card methods people tend to use.

Lenormand is actually a Sibilla-type deck, i.e., an illustrated deck of playing cards. So is the Italian Sibilla, and all of the various French Sibylle decks. - but if you try to match them up by the playing cards, it doesn't work. All of the cards below are the 7 of Clubs - Lenormand, Livre du Destin, and the Vera Sibilla pattern, respectively:



Mice, Love Letter and Grand Consolation. Mice are about loss, worry, and ruin. Love Letter is positive communication, with an element of affection. Grand Consolation fulfills dreams and ambitions. These decks are each speaking a different language! There is no universal cartomancy method. Even if you compare only French Sibylles, a lot of things won't match up, since not everybody in France used the same reading method.

Charlie Brown wrote: ↑26 Jun 2019, 15:40Different tools for different tasks.

Exactly. And different techniques for different tools. If I use my drill as a hammer, there's a good chance it will break.

The best way to approach Lenormand is to take off your hermetic hat, and be open to it exactly as it is. There is no 777 of Lenormand correspondences, nor should there be one. The simplicity of it is elegant, and a big part of what makes it work!

Like Nemia, I mostly only check out the court cards on the Lenormand cards, though I will admit sometimes, when I am able to take my time with reading with my lenormand deck, I do tend to pay attention to how many cards are together with the same suit or a mix of suits, etc. I also like to pay attention to the Aces.

I started out many decades ago reading playing cards. I forget the book I had purchased way back then to learn that system and when I did get it, I realized it was very different from the system my mother used - and her mother as well. My mother learned the craft from her mother, whom I think learned it from her mother and so on. My aunt read with both playing cards as well as tarot cards. My mother also read with Lenormand and Tarot--depending upon the customers needs and/or wants. Interestingly enough, each read slightly different from each other, and I do think this is something that is natural really. Everyone may start out with a set of definitions for a card - be it playing card, lenormand or tarot--but after years of reading they begin to see a pattern and may tweek the meaning of said card accordingly. It may not be a meaning that others see - but if you read a lot for others, it may just present itself to you as you go on. Of course, this also can be just the readers psychic abilities kicking in with the reading of the cards too.

And, as others pointed out here, the Lenormand way of reading started with playing cards of course! And, also as was pointed out in a previous post on this thread, it also depends upon your style of reading Lenormand, which is different, depending on the country you came from or learned. The German way of reading is different then the French, and so on.

In my opinion, it really doesn't matter how you read the cards as they are really just a tool and it is used to spark your intuition and being able to rely upon it to give a good reading. If your reading style doesn't work well for your customers, you're soon to find out because suddenly you won't be having repeat customers. So, if using the playing card suits to give more information in a Lenormand deck, then go for it. If not, that's cool too. I have many Lenny decks, some with the playing card inserts, some without. My favorite deck is the Piatnik Lenormand deck and my most go to Lenny.

As for using playing cards the same way as tarot, again, if it works for you, so be it. You are the reader and need to find the style that you are most comfortable with. It doesn't matter as long as it works for you. The only draw back to a playing deck being used as a tarot deck,you're missing the major arcana and the four princess cards.

Opal wrote: ↑15 Jul 2019, 23:48 In my opinion, it really doesn't matter how you read the cards as they are really just a tool and it is used to spark your intuition and being able to rely upon it to give a good reading.

Opal, I was reading your post and going "Yes, yes, OK, yes..." until I got to the above.
It has been stated many, many times that Lenormand is a method, not a deck.
Yes, you can purchase a Lenormand deck and read it any way you like. There are no cartomancy police coming to your kick door in!
You bought the deck, you own it - do what you like with it. But be aware that simply using them as "a tool to spark your intuition" is not Lenormand reading.

Intuition IS a part of Lenormand reading, but within the system - intuiting the messages of combos and distance as per the system. Lenormand is actually quite complex and requires a good many years of study. There are the rote meanings to learn - that's the easy part - and then there is technique. Technique takes some years to master, as it is quite different from what most coming from a Tarot background are used to.

It DOES matter how you read the cards. Clients who know nothing of reading methods may be happy if you tell them what they want to hear ("He loves you and he's coming back," etc.) and they will return again and again to hear these tales.

Sometimes, actually reading the cards means losing a client. The Scots had a phrase: "The tongue that cannot lie." (Predicting the future didn't work out so well for Kenneth Mackenzie - IIRC, he was burnt in a spiked tar barrel.)

But I've digressed. In any case, Lenormand is a folk tradition based on Alemannic cartomancy and the PL sheet. https://images.app.goo.gl/GCfURvK59wFwi7QBA

As for regional differences (German, French, Dutch/Belgian), those are mainly concerned with shifted card meanings: Moon, Anchor, or Fox as the main work card, etc. They're actually pretty inconsequential. My Bear carries some of Andy's Tower meanings, but we're speaking the same language.

Sadly, as the Lenormand Oracle gained popularity in the Anglo-Saxon market, a specific view of the playing cards as twee decorative motifs was cultivated. This was exacerbated because the playing-cards did not correspond to the “standard” associations most English and American cartomantes adhere to.

Thus many recommend ignoring them, erroneously claiming that they are contradictory.

Claims that the playing cards “differ” or “contradict” the traditional emblems’ definition stem from ignorance of both the cards’ roots and the myriad of variations that exist in Continental and Eastern Europe. There has never been one set of meanings for playing cards universally accepted by all.

Much of the individual cards’ meanings derive from their suits, and the savvy cartomante can tell much from seeing which suit dominants a reading. Also, all royal cards can be read as people - and who they regard or connect to (hearts = paternal line, spades = maternal line, etc) is important. Seeing three tens or two aces all carry significance.

These levels of of interpretation help the cartomante understand and refine details.

Elemental associations are varied and often illogical, e.g. Spades with Air, the most life-affirming of the elements and also the most social one. There are seasonal associations which are Spring Summer Autumn Winter. Astrologically, Ptolemy advises us, that spring is the wet season (Aries), summer hot (Cancer), autumn dry (Libra) and winter cold (Capricorn). However I don’t like mixing astrology and cartomancy.