Cult of Tarot Forum

I have to ask (not being argumentative, I really want to know).
Can someone define the “negative energy” they’re trying to remove from a tarot deck by knocking on it, storing it with a crystal, purifying in ‘moonlight’, or smudging, etc.?
Light, is the result of the alteration of matter (I'll allow a physicist to address this). Fire purifies by changing matter. (our life giving sun really is the depths of hell if you actually understand it). Light is matter, becoming energy.

Darkness – is nothing. No destruction, just the absence of light…or the absence of matter becoming energy.
Negative in energy terms, is a wave-form. In the case of electricity it’s returning to its source…what’s wrong with that?
Then there's entropy...

Even good and bad are terms of judgment. If “All is love”, then that would include the stuff we don’t like (the bad).
And if we love our enemies (because all is love), why would I want to clean myself from that action?
Seriously – What gives? What IS the negative that we’re so afraid of?

Then there's a whole platoon of readers who state, "I knock my deck three times on the table to knock the negative energy out."
If you knock it four time does it knock the good energy out? What happens if you knock it 5 time?
Then they slap that deck onto the pile of negative energy sitting on the table, and they shuffle it right back in. What gives?
As for Moonlight - it's reflected sunlight. I don't understand how that cleans a deck.

Me? I want my deck to contain all my shuffles, all my readings, all that energy - even from the not so good people...

Well, I don't ever cleanse my deck or anything to that matter. So I can't answer the question what gives.

But I've often thought about this so-called negative and positive energy. Surely energy is just energy, I tell myself. If I have a battery, which has a negative and positive pole, I'm not going to be able to do much if one or the other is missing. They're not really two opposite poles - they're both just two important vital components that need each other to function.

Now, I wonder also what happens if one knocks five instead of four times... I'm going to ponder this outside with a cigarette. I get a lot of good ideas outside when I'm smoking.

I tend to tap my deck a couple times to like ... get rid of stagnation lol. Like if I do a couple jumping jacks to get my blood moving or give myself a good shake to recenter. Its not so much knocking on the decks as it is tapping the decks on to the surface a few times. Often it's 3, but that's just because "rapraprap" feels satisfying. If I've been using a deck a lot and just like went for a snack or something, it'll often be 2, that's got more of a "knock knock anyone home?" vibe. So in my practice, knocking isn't about cleansing, it's about ... aligning, centering. More akin to cracking your neck and wrist before sitting down to get to work.

For moonlight, that's also not really about cleansing for me, but more like ... bathing? Basking, soaking it in. Yep, it's naught but reflected sunlight, but there's an energetic shift in that process that I can feel. The traditional example of running through a forest during the day vs the night is a prime example - it can really feel like there's something more than trees and roots and owls. On the other side, if I sit in the same place quietly on a sunny day and on a moonlit night, different things will flow through my mind. If I have a conversation with someone under moonlight, things that might not come out in daylight may come into conversation. Putting a deck into the moonlight for me is about getting it signed with that kind of energy, the ability to connect like you do under moonlight.

Being Native, I do smudge using smoke, but to be honest the tone of the posts here isn't feeling welcoming to me explaining that part of my spiritual path.

Libra wrote: ↑01 Mar 2020, 19:04
Being Native, I do smudge using smoke, but to be honest the tone of the posts here isn't feeling welcoming to me explaining that part of my spiritual path.

Well, I think that would be very interesting.

But DarkWing's talk of energy and its physical qualities is a very astute remark I think. With a very nice tone also. Also the remark about the reflective energy of the moon. We're bang in the Tarot there as well.

There are many people who view energy as something else than in native practices, or in spiritual practices. As something more related to physics. Or at least take this very much into account.

There is room for all practices and beliefs. But it's also true that on a discussion forum, one must be be prepared sometimes to come across very opposite views on things and sometimes these ideas can clash a bit before they're ironed out and discussed and debated. There's no need for people to get too touchy. A healthy debate can be very beneficial.

Also some people are very direct in their speech, others are more gentle. Some are humourous with a touch of irony sometimes. Others are serious and academic. All sorts of tones and hues and colours are necessary.

I can't stand those discussion boards where everything is kisses and light and love and hippy flowers. A Tarot forum isn't Woodstock.

Libra wrote: ↑01 Mar 2020, 19:04 Being Native, I do smudge using smoke, but to be honest the tone of the posts here isn't feeling welcoming to me explaining that part of my spiritual path.

Here's the thing. And I am so glad you've said this.

I realise that this is a problem. It's something I see, something others have mentioned to me. And something I am trying to work on to make this place better. But I can see there is much work to do and to a large extent that is in setting the tone.

This is a forum. That means by definition, it is a place for conversation, discussion.

If more people will post about more things, this would encourage other like-minded people to come out and do it as well, changing the overall tone to something more accepting to more ideas and practices.

There is room here for everyone.

I appreciate very much Libra expressing her(?) perceptions. I know many share them. We have to look at this.

I think there is a perception of a lack of open-ness that is largely feuled by the frequent "shut-down" "what-are-you-even-talking-about" nature of responses we occasionally see.

No one wants a banal forum. But if we aren't careful we could slip into that cliquey, narrow-minded trap that is just as bad.

We can be better.

EDIT: Speaking of negative energy, I feel I have inadvertently spread some here. Didn't mean to. This is a nice thread, an interesting subject. I just wanted to address Libra's concern. I take it seriously.

DarkWing wrote: ↑01 Mar 2020, 15:20 Me? I want my deck to contain all my shuffles, all my readings, all that energy - even from the not so good people...

I often take a walk for the purpose of knocking the negative energy out of myself. I can tell you, it works.

I think to a large extent these rituals are ways of connecting to an object, to a deck. Using crystals or moonlight etc. is very popular in many circles as many rituals are specifically about connecting to nature and seeking to bring that power into one's practice.

Libra mentioned being a Native. I think this is also what a lot of witchcraft practice is about as well, understanding and being part of nature. I would love to hear more from any who practice.

Joan Marie wrote: ↑01 Mar 2020, 20:03

EDIT: Speaking of negative energy, I feel I have inadvertently spread some here. Didn't mean to. This is a nice thread, an interesting subject. I just wanted to address Libra's concern. I take it seriously.

Well speaking just for me, that's not relevant for me what you call "spreading negative energy". So you're ok in my books. As I mentioned further up, for me negative and positive energy is just a fundamental physical principle. Two vital poles. And what is above is as below. As Le Bateleur/Magician confirms. I don't really judge whether one is bad or good. That would be like saying the night is bad and the day is good or vice versa. Energy in itself is neutral.

The Bateleur works well when he's in alignment with Justice (8). And also with the tides, therefore the Moon. 1, 8 and 18.

this is really interesting, it would be awesome if we could have a discussion, or rather, an exchange of ideas and practices where everybody would feel comfortable and appreciated.
darkwing, your post made me laugh..... :lol because i often ask myself the same thing, and you made it clear that you really want to know, not criticize, i appreciate that.
i laughed because i myself never clean my decks, on the contrary, i am one of the most messy deck users ever, right now i have the cards from 3 readings scattered everywhere on my table, covered with books and magazines and tablets i am using, cookie jars, breadcrumbs and the remains of my dinner. so you could say i am not very respectful towards my decks, i have hundreds of them but to me they are just cards with images. but that’s just how i see them.
libra, i found your explanation fascinating, and i can understand why you do it, how it is a way to get comfortable with your decks, it feels like a grounding or centering ritual, and makes me want to try it out, just to see if it would work for me. i do have my own rituals, for example i always shuffle seven times seven (five times five with my oracle decks) and then pick the seventh, fourteenth and twenty first card and so on (fifth/tenth/fifteenth for the oracle decks) why seven? why five? no idea, it just feels good i guess.
and while i would never think of putting my decks in the moonlight, i do that regularly with my crystals on full moon nights. why? don’t know, i read it in a book somewhere so i tried it out and it feels like a nice ritual. the full moon always shines through my large living room windows (when there are no clouds) and i love placing my crystals in the windowsills and then turning down the lights and sitting in the dark gazing at the moon, it feels magical.
i guess everyone has their own way of ‘dealing’ with their decks and our spiritual practices will probably vary widely. i would really love to hear more about this from others on this forum.
btw, i just received the hoodoo tarot and was completely blown away. i seem to deeply resonate with hoodoo spirituality, so i am going to explore this esoteric system further in the coming months, and i will surely try out some of its rituals to see if they work for me.

Diana wrote: ↑01 Mar 2020, 20:53 Two vital poles. And what is above is as below. As Le Bateleur/Magician confirms. I don't really judge whether one is bad or good. That would be like saying the night is bad and the day is good or vice versa. Energy in itself is neutral.

The Bateleur works well when he's in alignment with Justice (8). And also with the tides, therefore the Moon. 1, 8 and 18.

Yes, Bateleur is a catalyst to manipulate energy. I also like your thoughts on the interaction between Bateleur, Justice, Moon.

stronglove wrote: ↑01 Mar 2020, 22:38 i guess everyone has their own way of ‘dealing’ with their decks and our spiritual practices will probably vary widely.

the "spiritual cleansing" of decks is probably a more important issue for professional readers than for solitary readers/practitioners, but I may be very wrong about that, it's just not an issue for me.

I totally understand why professional readers have concerns, but it also occurs to me that the tarot deck a professional uses is always in their possession, their personal energy has been imparted into the deck, the deck is saturated with their energy.
A vital and deeply intimate connection has been made, there's an understanding between the reader and their deck.

The spiritual/psychic bond between deck and reader is very strong and nobody can break it, except the reader, the owner of the deck.

From my own perspective, there's no need to cleanse the deck, any more than it's necessary to cleanse yourself, although some people do smudge themselves and perform other cleansing rituals to keep themselves and/or their auras spiritually pristine, which I also understand.

A person could start a huge thread just on the subject of "rituals" alone.
Ritual is hugely important in any school of spiritual practice, regardless of whether you embrace Roman Catholicism, Golden Dawn, Santeria or just your own brand of spiritual devotion.

DarkWing wrote: ↑01 Mar 2020, 15:20 I have to ask (not being argumentative, I really want to know).
Can someone define the “negative energy” they’re trying to remove from a tarot deck by knocking on it, storing it with a crystal, purifying in ‘moonlight’, or smudging, etc.?
Light, is the result of the alteration of matter (I'll allow a physicist to address this). Fire purifies by changing matter. (our life giving sun really is the depths of hell if you actually understand it). Light is matter, becoming energy.

Darkness – is nothing. No destruction, just the absence of light…or the absence of matter becoming energy.
Negative in energy terms, is a wave-form. In the case of electricity it’s returning to its source…what’s wrong with that?
Then there's entropy...

Even good and bad are terms of judgment. If “All is love”, then that would include the stuff we don’t like (the bad).
And if we love our enemies (because all is love), why would I want to clean myself from that action?
Seriously – What gives? What IS the negative that we’re so afraid of?

Then there's a whole platoon of readers who state, "I knock my deck three times on the table to knock the negative energy out."
If you knock it four time does it knock the good energy out? What happens if you knock it 5 time?
Then they slap that deck onto the pile of negative energy sitting on the table, and they shuffle it right back in. What gives?
As for Moonlight - it's reflected sunlight. I don't understand how that cleans a deck.

Me? I want my deck to contain all my shuffles, all my readings, all that energy - even from the not so good people...

I'm conflicted.
I've never cleansed decks, nor myself (in a ritualistic sense) prior to reading. Yet I strongly subscribe to the belief that I'm affected by 'energies'... not so much positive or negative, it's more about stillness and chaotic.
Aaack... I lack the language to describe, and the understanding of science to explain. The closest I can come to an explanation is that sense of swirling energies - a kinda psychic version of the physical sensation of gusting wind. It can be enervating or disorientating. In just the same way as stillness can be calming or stagnant. I'd stay away from reading when I'm sensing either end of the continuum - yet sometimes its the impetus for a breakthrough self-reading.

Papageno wrote: ↑02 Mar 2020, 01:47
Ritual is hugely important in any school of spiritual practice, regardless of whether you embrace Roman Catholicism, Golden Dawn, Santeria or just your own brand of spiritual devotion.

I agree with you that this is generally the case. However, there are some exceptions to the rule. In my spiritual "practice", there are no rituals whatsoever. I mean really none at all. Not even a bowing of head. No cleansing, no incense, no signing, no candles, no prayer, no clasping of hands, and the list can go on forever. I've never cleansed a deck nor anything else for that matter.

Diana wrote: ↑02 Mar 2020, 07:51 I agree with you that this is generally the case. However, there are some exceptions to the rule. In my spiritual "practice", there are no rituals whatsoever. I mean really none at all. Not even a bowing of head. No cleansing, no incense, no signing, no candles, no prayer, no clasping of hands, and the list can go on forever. I've never cleansed a deck nor anything else for that matter.

I'm basically with you on most if not all points.

I think this is already turning into a "ritual" thread, but it's probably not an issue addressing 2 topics con-currently.

I like candles, but simply because I find candlelight to be very relaxing, I don't scry with candles or anything like that.
Burning incense occasionally used to be nice but allergies now prohibit such indulgences.

Incense has an interesting history of uses, in ancient times incense was burned to keep away flies and mask bad odors.
But it also was (and still is) used ceremoniously to not only purify the physical air but to send messages, prayers, wishes to deities.
Christian churches still use incense and Holy Water, although I don't think Tarot decks will thank you for sprinkling blessed water on them unless they're heavily plasticized......best to stick with incense

the topic of "cleansing the deck" actually branches out into many other sub-topics or new threads altogether.

For instance, I'm sure there are many people who place their decks on altars of their favorite deities or keep them in a living space filled with Chakra art and ephemera.

A couple hundred years ago, they knew for a fact that the heavenly bodies orbiting the earth created the elements. The sun created gold.
This is also why they only searched for gold in the equatorial climes.

The planet Mercury created quicksilver (mercury), lead was created by Saturn, Jupiter made tin, etc.

They knew for a fact that if you left lead exposed long enough to the equatorial sun, it would turn into gold. And they knew that meant a really long time.

The Moon, created Silver, which even in the late 1600’s, they knew that its light was reflected – which gave silver its value.

All that heliocentricity seems silly now - right up there with the 'flat earth' stuff.

Tapping the deck on a table – in the printing industry, that’s called ‘jogging’. It aligns the edges so the ‘stack’ of documents can be handled without damaging edges.

Joan Marie wrote: ↑01 Mar 2020, 20:09 I often take a walk for the purpose of knocking the negative energy out of myself. I can tell you, it works.

Yes. Walking does help us feel better. But I’m concerned that Western thought (Philosophy, religion etc.) has created an internal mechanism that we use to ‘uplift’ and ‘instruct’.

But the Soul does not need spiritual elevation – it is already pure. We don’t have a soul, we are a soul. We have a body.

This division creates a division which sometimes makes sense, and other times misleads us.

I believe that a lot of the cleansing practices have little spiritual value. But I am willing to listen, because I'm willing to admit I'm incorrect.

DarkWing wrote: ↑02 Mar 2020, 12:27 I believe that a lot of the cleansing practices have little spiritual value. But I am willing to listen, because I'm willing to admit I'm incorrect.

Wouldn't the person doing it be the best judge of its spiritual value?

DarkWing wrote: ↑02 Mar 2020, 12:27

But the Soul does not need spiritual elevation – it is already pure. We don’t have a soul, we are a soul. We have a body.

I spent some time not so long ago looking at each part of my body, including heart and brain, to decide if I was there. I didn't find myself anywhere - from the toes to the last hair on my head. I was just checking to see if I was a body or if I the body was mine. I checked again a couple of days later. The irrefutable conclusion was that I had a body but it was not me. That removed any last bit of fear of death that may still have been lingering, although I was already quite convinced that death is an illusion. I reckon I'll recreate another body when this one has done its time. If I think it's still a useful vehicle.

DarkWing wrote: ↑02 Mar 2020, 12:27
I believe that a lot of the cleansing practices have little spiritual value. But I am willing to listen, because I'm willing to admit I'm incorrect.

this made me laugh a little, because to me it seems so paradoxical....
you first state that you don’t believe in the spiritual value of cleansing practices. but that means that you already have chosen a position, and you are not searching for information in order to decide where you stand.
then you say you are willing to admit you’re incorrect. but there is no ‘correct’ in the matter of the spiritual value of cleansing decks, or whatever other ritual or spiritual practice, that’s just the point. joan marie is so absolutely right when she says this is personal. spiritual value is not something you can measure or objectify. i can say that cleansing decks has no spiritual value for me, while exposing my crystals to the full moon does (as well as meditating in front of my altar, connecting with my ancestors through the tarot, communicating with ancient rocks and talking to my spirit animals) but i cannot take that to mean that cleansing decks doesn’t have any spiritual value at all/ in general/for others, nor that others should ‘convert’ to my spiritual practices because those practices are ‘true’ or ‘healthy’ or ‘correct’.
so whereas your original question in this thread made me want to respond, because you kept it personal (i am wondering why people do this, i want to understand) this post doesn’t, because it seems we are speaking in different tongues and i don’t feel you are really interested in/ open to information from a personal perspective, it actually seems to me that instead you are trying to prove a point, to get across what you yourself think of rituals and spiritual practices. you are not the only one who does that. and i can now understand why libra doesn’t want to reveal more of her personal stuff only to be bombarded with information about ‘ancient’ beliefs and superstitions that have been proven ‘untrue’. actually, it seems a bit silly/ childish to drag this kind of stuff into the discussion.

I first noticed the ‘cleansing’ thing back in the aughts. Never heard about it in the 70’s or even into the 90’s.

Over the years I’ve noted that when folks talk about used decks, and can ‘others’ influence your deck, should it be ‘cleansed’; there are the responses that use the terms, myths, legends, belief…also there tend to be things tossed about with implications about what one may choose to believe.

Somebody once said something about not just energy being left on cards (and I suppose the term energy may have caused some concern for a few) but mentioned Fingerprints…DNA.

And I pulled up short.

What are fingerprints? A unique pattern of ridges and valleys on our fingers – a unique chaotic image made up of oils and secretions. These oils and secretions and dead tissue flakes, are left behind on everything we touch or brush up against. It is cellular material that carries a distinct deoxyribonucleic acid marker from the originator. A specific construction of a double helix joined by hydrogen bonds between purine and pyrimidine bases which project inward from two chains containing alternate links of deoxyribose and phosphate…each with a specific marker. DNA…the DNA molecule and double helix approximates Phi (1.6180). It measures 34 angstroms long by 21 angstroms wide for each full cycle of its double helix spiral, and their ratio is, 1.619. A cross-section view from looking down at the top of the DNA double helix, describes a decagon (see the back of a Voyager Deck), so that each spiral of the double helix will trace out the shape of a pentagon (think on that one for a bit).

The universe, from the logarithmic spiral of a galaxy’s arm – to the smallest element, including DNA, is constructed using phi (the golden mean. It’s the stuff of life itself).

But I’m rambling.

Fingerprints are said to be unique to each of us, as is our DNA. And we leave a bit of ourselves on whatever we come in contact with. The lead pipe, the candlestick, the rope, the Tarot deck…we touch it…and leave something unique behind.

A fingerprint within a fingerprint.

So let’s take a deck. A virgin deck, never shuffled, never handled. We shuffle with it, we meditate on the cards, examine the art. We impart a piece of ourselves, a bit of biomaterial, on each card.

So do our bodies contain micro-electricity; small charges of electrical current? Could it be different for each of us? Is it in our DNA or cellular material?

I think it may be possible...

But if we leave a physical, cellular piece of ourselves behind – logic tells me that a micro-electrical charge may be imparted also.

Each sitter touches our virgin deck. Some shuffle, some only cut. Some only rest their hands on it while pondering their question by candlelight.

Overtime, the deck will indeed contain a little of each reading, a little of each sitter, a little of ourselves. A little good left behind by some, evil left behind by others…. A bit here and there…

Overtime…the deck may very well contain more than the sum of the imagery.

Quantum physics tells us the universe, as we know it does not exist. But we make it so. An electron here exchanges with an electron there. A few neutrinos shoot through (Swiiiiiiiiiiiiiing)…

I’m rambling again.

So there it is – genetic material on our deck, left by every sitter…why does a well-loved deck have a special feel to it, is there a feel that goes beyond the paper or ink?

...Atomic material within the deck, left by behind by every sitter… why does a well-loved deck have a special feel to it, is there a feel that goes beyond the paper or ink?

Some describe relationships we have with our decks, and are reminded that we are anthropomorphizing our decks (they hate that).

But seriously, I’m still at a quandary about the whole cleansing thing.
I really want my deck to contain everything.

Everything.

DarkWing wrote: ↑02 Mar 2020, 14:42 But seriously, I’m still at a quandary about the whole cleansing thing.
I really want my deck to contain everything.

Everything.

Cool. So don't cleanse it!

TBH- I don't think you are in a quandary at all. You really sound like you have a very clear and strong feeling about what you think of all this cleansing business.

But I hope some people continue to share their thoughts on this. I'm finding the contributions of people who are open to it very interesting.

I'm pretty sure that people are using the term 'energy' in a metaphorical sense when they talk of negative energies, cleansing, etc. So I'm not sure how much light the contemporary laws and theories of physics can throw on the matter. Anyway, I don't cleanse my decks. But I have had enough personal experience to believe that people do sometimes, or to some extent, leave non-material traces of themselves behind. And that these non-material traces can trigger physical/emotional/psychological reactions. So, anyway, yes, tapping your deck to shake off the bad-energies is, literally, as things currently stand, irrational and or illogical. Then again, so is card-reading, talk of perfect souls and many, many other things that are a part of everyday life for billions of people. Speculating about information bearing micro-charges in an attempt to rationalize this stuff underestimates the scale of the problem, imo. Rationality and logic, while important, are not the arbiter of what is, and isn't, real. Life is, after all, a mystery.

That being said, I do enjoy a bit of crazed speculation!

Valentin Tomberg in his Meditations on the Tarot speaks thus of energy :

Matter is condensed energy. Energy is condensed psychic force. Psychic force is the condensation of consciousness (or spirit).

Causal chain :

Spirit - coming from a personal being /mind
Psychic force - intentions of a personal being
Energy - actions of a personal being
Material - physical manifestation of a personal being.

Spirit causes matter.


(with thanks to throwness https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzavLAc ... L&index=21)

We actually have the four suits of the Tarot there.

DarkWing wrote: ↑02 Mar 2020, 14:42 But I’m rambling.

maybe, just a little, but it's difficult not to ramble on, I do it all the time and then edit my posts endlessly to achieve a measure of brevity however you do raise some wonderfully evocative points, so ramble on.

DarkWing wrote: ↑02 Mar 2020, 14:42 Fingerprints are said to be unique to each of us, as is our DNA. And we leave a bit of ourselves on whatever we come in contact with.

Overtime, the deck will indeed contain a little of each reading, a little of each sitter, a little of ourselves. A little good left behind by some, evil left behind by others…. A bit here and there…

Overtime…the deck may very well contain more than the sum of the imagery.

So there it is – genetic material on our deck, left by every sitter…why does a well-loved deck have a special feel to it, is there a feel that goes beyond the paper or ink?

...Atomic material within the deck, left by behind by every sitter… why does a well-loved deck have a special feel to it, is there a feel that goes beyond the paper or ink?

Some describe relationships we have with our decks, and are reminded that we are anthropomorphizing our decks (they hate that).

But seriously, I’m still at a quandary about the whole cleansing thing.
I really want my deck to contain everything.

Everything.

IMHO the solution is very simple, just don't cleanse your deck, there's nothing to be in a quandary about.

I enjoy reading about your perspective which incorporates a fusion of science and spirituality.
No, I do not hate the idea of anthropomorphizing a Tarot deck but aren't you essentially saying the same thing?

You make the point about genetic material and residual micro-electrical energy, which by your reasoning imparts energy into the deck, energy from every hand that deck has passed through and every reading it has ever been used for.

What you're basically saying is that every "used" "pre-owned" Tarot deck, is "Mnemonic", which I personally think is an absolutely fascinating idea.

Papageno wrote: ↑02 Mar 2020, 20:16
No, I do not hate the idea of anthropomorphizing a Tarot deck

I do. (whispering) (although hate is perhaps a bit too strong) (whispering so as not to disturb the energy field too much)

Diana wrote: ↑02 Mar 2020, 20:47

Papageno wrote: ↑02 Mar 2020, 20:16
No, I do not hate the idea of anthropomorphizing a Tarot deck

I do. (whispering) (although hate is perhaps a bit too strong)

don't whisper Diana , I always enjoy your candor.

the idea of anthropomorphizing a Tarot deck (delightfully) appeals to the artistic and creative aspect of my personality.
It would make for a wonderful pivotal theme or subplot of a movie or book.