Are TdM decks really free from fixed meanings?

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Hello,

are TdM decks really free from fixed meanings?

People who often prefer TdM decks argument that this kind of Tarot has neither an immediate creator nor fixed meanings (as the Waite-Smith etc.) what makes it more appropriate for free intuitive reading.
But I‘m not sure about the conclusions that are drawn from it. Being an owner of the CBD Tarot, I‘ve learned from his book „The open reading“ that there are fixed meanings in a certain sense. Ben-Dov has his own way to interpretate the cards, which makes imho no difference between CBD and Waite-Smith/Thoth Tarot etc…
I think if you really want to use a deck without any influence from a contemporary author, you can just switch to non-restored decks.

I‘m not sure, my thoughts..

[JudyK]

I think if you really want to use a deck without any influence from a contemporary author, you can just switch to non-restored decks.

Or just not read the author's book and do as you will.

My reading of Ben Dov's book didn't leave me feeling like I'd been fed fixed meanings, necessarily. Instead, I was invited to look at each card and ask myself what the image represented in my understanding - What is happening? What could it signify? How would it "behave"? Ben Dov gave his insights - would make for very short books if authors didn't - but I'm free to see what I see. Of course, my understanding is informed by the same cultural references that inform others', so there's bound to be some common ground.

I don't think of the cards as having meanings. They are potentialities. They depend on their relationships to context, each other, and intuition to give them form.

YMMV.

[fire cat pickles]

I don't think they are completely free of fixed meanings for me. I can't speak for others. This is only for my reading style. I don't come from a tradition of reading TdM. I can't separate some of my preconceived notions of card meanings, for instance from Hedgewytchery or from especially the Majors when reading, to name just a few.

If the imagery and patterns speak to me this can override these fixed meanings. It's definitely a hodgepodge of reading techniques when I read with the TdM. I also use decantes thrown in there, but I rarely explain any if this part. They're in the back of my mind somewhere.

[Charlie Brown]

There's no one way to read TdM. Ben-Dov definitely falls on the more "fixed meanings" end of the spectrum if, by fixed meanings, one means the ability to define a card by one or two keywords the way that, in RWS, one might say "celebration" or "charity" for the 4 of wands and 6 of Pentacles. Overall, though, I think it's probably more common to interpret the pips using a combination of number and suit symbolism applied within the context of the question.

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Hello,
@ Judy:

Or just not read the author's book and do as you will

Yes, but would you say the same if it’s about the Waite-Smith deck?
I assume there are a lot of Waite-Smith readers, who never read Waite’s "Pictorial key" book and believe that those cards are open to many different interpretations.

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@ Charlie Brown:

There's no one way to read TdM.

Just this is the reason why I wonder that so many TdM readers say the Waite-Smith cards are so limited in their meanings. Does ist really make a difference to read with TdM or WSM deck? I think that the illustrated scences can help, but eventually they are useless when you don’t deal with stuff like Numerology. I think also TdM readers derive their knowledge from Numerology, because there is no „ancient knowledge“ how to read Tarot correct.

[fire cat pickles]

I don't use numerology with TdM.

[fire cat pickles]

Hello,
@ Judy:

Or just not read the author's book and do as you will

Yes, but would you say the same if it’s about the Waite-Smith deck?
I assume there are a lot of Waite-Smith readers, who never read Waite’s "Pictorial key" book and believe that those cards are open to many different interpretations.

But within reason. You're not going to find an RWS reader saying that 5 of Pents is going to mean "happy marriage" or 10 of Cups to mean "unlucky" for instance, in any context. It just isn't going to happen. In TdM this is well within the realm of possibility. Meanings are much more wide open.

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@ fire cat pickles

But within reason. You're not going to find an RWS reader saying that 5 of Pents is going to mean "happy marriage" or 10 of Cups to mean "unlucky" for instance, in any context. It just isn't going to happen. In TdM this is well within the realm of possibility. Meanings are much more wide open.

Hmm I dont’t know. Do you think a TdM 5 of coins could be interpreteted as „happy marriage“?

Yes, Numerology is just one possible option to work with Tarot. But honestly, I wouldn’t know how to interpretete nonpictorial pips without Numerology (?).

[Charlie Brown]

There's a difference, I think, between numerology and number symbolism, although people often use the two interchangeably. I do think that using number symbolism is very common in pip reading but, also, a large segment, perhaps the majority of readers read TdM majors only and/or segregate the pips for follow-ups.

[fire cat pickles]

There's a difference, I think, between numerology and number symbolism, although people often use the two interchangeably. I do think that using number symbolism is very common in pip reading but, also, a large segment, perhaps the majority of readers read TdM majors only and/or segregate the pips for follow-ups.

This.

From what I've learned, this is the go-to, more traditional TdM method. It's what is practiced in Europe. Definitely not the fixed, RWS-style we're used to.

[Papageno]

this is an excellent thread btw.

it occurs to me that there are essentially two characteristics that influence how people read TdM and RWS decks:

1. the artwork, obviously. A straightforward TdM deck is a TdM is a TdM is a TdM...a rose by any other name, even accounting for stylistic differences.

As one observer noted, there are so many artistic interpretations of the RWS theme, that some or many readers pick up on every nuance and detail of a particular card and assign significance to it, whether or not the artist actually intended for a minuscule detail to be read as such.

2. Creating a TdM deck for an Anglo/American audience vs. Eurocentric readers.
Ciro Marchetti put "training wheels" on his Tarot Decoratif, incorporating RWS imagery, thus encouraging interpretation of TdM images by way of the RWS system.

Robert Place is currently working on his Alchemical Tarot of Marseille, which essentially follows Ciro's formulae.
The artwork is on his webpage and the incorporation of RWS symbolism is self evident.

While this approach isn't a crime or anything......well, I suspect many TdM purists do consider it as such......this will certainly have an impact on the evolution of TdM reading methodology, particularly in the Anglo world......but on the other hand, I have a feeling this also contributes to the confusion about what is considered "proper" or "correct" when reading TdM.

I seems to me that American artists such as Ciro and Place, take this route to make their decks more sale-able, something I don't fault them for.....a person has to make money after all......the deck is just another commodity, it's entirely up to the buyer to decide how to use them.

It will be interesting to see if this approach to reading TdM actually becomes a trend, especially in Anglo communities, or if
there will be a very limited output of such decks, purchased mainly for their aesthetic appeal.

[Charlie Brown]

Who can say, but based on the readers I personally know who are enamored with Ciro's work they aren't the sort to be sweating the finer details of technique. I'm not saying they're bad readers, they're the contrary, in fact. But they are the sort who first and foremost read intuitively from the pictures.

[fire cat pickles]

@ fire cat pickles

But within reason. You're not going to find an RWS reader saying that 5 of Pents is going to mean "happy marriage" or 10 of Cups to mean "unlucky" for instance, in any context. It just isn't going to happen. In TdM this is well within the realm of possibility. Meanings are much more wide open.

Hmm I dont’t know. Do you think a TdM 5 of coins could be interpreteted as „happy marriage“?

Yes, Numerology is just one possible option to work with Tarot. But honestly, I wouldn’t know how to interpretete nonpictorial pips without Numerology (?).

Sorry for the delay. I went to sleep very early last night....

I'm glad you asked because this could be a very could draw a very good example of how some (not me, necessarily) not all TdM readers read... They would take the Major and correlate it with the 5 of Coins minor--the "Hierophant" in this case, the "priest/Pope" card. The element earth is solid and grounded. Bingo. You have a well-grounded, happy marriage. All in context of course. Probable in a marriage-related question the 5 of Coins could mean a happy marriage. Just an example, for what it's worth. Totally different from the RWS meaning.

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@ fire cat pickles:

hey would take the Major and correlate it with the 5 of Coins minor--the "Hierophant" in this case, the "priest/Pope" card. The element earth is solid and grounded. Bingo. You have a well-grounded, happy marriage.

But the same method could be applied for RWS readings.
The reason why you can see two beggars passing the church on the RWS, is because the number 5 symbolises conflicts (Admittedly just one aspect). And in this case material conflicts/issues etc.
As you already said the 5s are associated with the Hierophant (or Pope). My personal interpretation is, that the Hierophant is the root of conflicts which lie in the churche’s claim of religious authority.(Also just one aspect).

Like the most British people also Waite has been a protestant and I think his believe took also influence on those cards - the protestants never accepted the authority of the Catholic church and considered their claim of power somewhat difficult.
I don't know if that is too far-fetched.

I agree with you saying the earth element is solid and grounded. But what about the relation with the Hierophant: Why a happy marriage? Do you associate marriage with the Hierophant?

[fire cat pickles]

So I'm not going to split hairs with this... the hierophant (scratch that) Papus is all about traditions, the order of things. He also marries people. That's why he could be seen as a marriage card. It really doesn't matter. I was just using that as a possibility. I could have just as easily have used Lover and 6 of Coins as an example. Yet 6 of Pentacles is no more a marriage card in RWS than 5 of Pentacles. You can have an intuitive reader say it is all day long, I don't really care, but within the RWS system, it just doesn't hold water. The 4 of Wands and/or 10 of Cups are marriage/family cards (to name two). It is a fixed, limited system for the most part, at least when you're talking individual card meanings. Once taken in context there is a little wiggle room, but not much. And there definitely isn't the freedom one gets when reading with the TdM. That's one of the many reasons I switched over 10 years ago after reading RWS for 20+ years.