Cult of Tarot Forum

We've started the discussion about the Elements for this particular study of how to read the Pips in the TdM in this thread : viewtopic.php?f=132&p=14676#p14676

As I don't see how it's possible to correctly read the pips without having some at least basic background in numbers, that I'd start a thread about this.

Deciding which numerology method to use is always a bit of a headache. And a lot of the stuff one reads is all very nice, but one wonders how on earth one can apply that to the Tarot. Yes, the number 3 is sometimes seen as the Father, Son and Holy Ghost; the number 5 is the number of Man and then one inevitably gets shown a picture of Da Vinci's Vetruvian Man (what is Vetruvian anyway ? I know because I just looked it up.) These things don't really help us when we're reading the cards to get insight into a day to day problem.

So I'm going to start out here with a proposition. Something of a practical nature. It's not mine. It's by Carole Sédillot in her book Ombres et Lumières du Tarot (1997). She talks of the number of man - lol!! -. But I'll forgive her. The rest makes good sense I think. Apart from her "Money" and "Material" for the number 8. That's a bit weird so I put those in italics and brackets.

As far as I'm concerned, these are a very good basis to build on. But I would like to discuss it a bit and not just take it at face value. Otherwise we're just being parrots.

1. Fire, Beginnings, Point, Unity, Primal Cause, Manifestation, Contains 'the all', Active, Masculine.
2. Water, Duality, Opposites, Reflection, Receptivity, Passive, Feminine.
3. Air, Dominates the duality, Causes movement, Trinity, Active, Masculine.
4. Earth, Matter, Concretization, Construction, Equilibrium, Realization, Passive, Feminine.
5. Ether, Number of man, Evolution, Protection, Faith, Spirituality, Active/Passive, Masculine.
6. Hesitation, Search for harmony, Beauty, Decision, Choice, Passive, Feminine.
7. Victory, Energy, Success, Perfection, Active, Masculine.
8. Infinite, (Material), Transformation, Judgement, Balance, (Money), Rigor, Passive, Feminine.
9. Results, Accomplishments, End of a cycle, Inner action, Knowledge, Active, Masculine.
10. End of a cycle and beginning of a new cycle, Summing up, Using one's experience, Renewal, Return to Unity, Totality.

I too have struggled with numerology and the Pips. I have tried out so many systems over the past 3 decades. My experience is similar in that many of them are just so darned hard to remember them. Then 4 things seeped through my thick skull:

1) I realized with such a plethora of systems, that there thus really is no system that is sacrosanct or more authentic than any other.

2) The ONLY real system is "less than/more than." You know, 3 is less than 5 and a lot less than 10; and 10 is more than 8 and a lot more than 2, etc.

3) Thus numbers best denote a sequence, a process. Step-by-step patterns.

Well as if by divine intervention, I found the one "system" that finally was so apropos, and so unbelievably easy to memorize (took me about 10 mins) because it is so logical and systematic. I have used it for several years now, and I am never going back!

ALL credit must go to the amazing and erudite Tarot de Marseille expert - Lee Bursten. He spelled out this system in his, "The Marseille Companion" copyright 2006. Here it is verbatim pg.41:

Ace: There’s a first time for everything. Beginnings. A seed that will grow.
Two: It takes two. A dialogue. Weighing and comparing different possibilities.
Three: Having a plan. Formulating a strategy to accomplish a goal.
Four: Making it happen. Your efforts result in concrete manifestation. Initial success.
Five: Challenging yourself. A monkey wrench. Things don’t go as expected and you’re challenged to grow. Or you may be deliberately challenging yourself.
Six: Keeping it going. You’ve established a pattern or rhythm which allows things to run smoothly. Things are going well and you’re in a position to be generous with others or even to give up some of your goals for others’ benefit.
Seven: Going deeper. You become aware of deeper levels of meaning and hidden motivations. You’re no longer satisfied with superficial answers.
Eight: The efficiency expert. Through use of discipline and structure, you reach peak efficiency.
Nine: You deserve it. You receive rewards due to your own efforts.
Ten: Enough already. You’ve attained your goals, but find them unsatisfying. Time to begin something new.

Lee is also careful to note that, "Please note that any of the above meanings can be seen positively or negatively. Eight, for example, “The efficiency expert,” could indicate too much discipline and structure, or someone who is being too efficient. With the Five, a challenge might be just what you need right now. The Knave (“Learning”) can be nosey." pg. 41

Wonder of wonders!

I apply this to my most "elemental" meanings of the 4 suits, i.e., functions - "Elementary my dear Watson!" And voila, the Pips magically open and flower on the table.

Respectfully,
Belenus

Belenus wrote: ↑25 Jan 2020, 01:53
ALL credit must go to the amazing and erudite Tarot de Marseille expert - Lee Bursten. He spelled out this system in his, "The Marseille Companion" copyright 2006. Here it is verbatim pg.41:

Ace: There’s a first time for everything. Beginnings. A seed that will grow.
Two: It takes two. A dialogue. Weighing and comparing different possibilities.
Three: Having a plan. Formulating a strategy to accomplish a goal.
Four: Making it happen. Your efforts result in concrete manifestation. Initial success.
Five: Challenging yourself. A monkey wrench. Things don’t go as expected and you’re challenged to grow. Or you may be deliberately challenging yourself.
Six: Keeping it going. You’ve established a pattern or rhythm which allows things to run smoothly. Things are going well and you’re in a position to be generous with others or even to give up some of your goals for others’ benefit.
Seven: Going deeper. You become aware of deeper levels of meaning and hidden motivations. You’re no longer satisfied with superficial answers.
Eight: The efficiency expert. Through use of discipline and structure, you reach peak efficiency.
Nine: You deserve it. You receive rewards due to your own efforts.
Ten: Enough already. You’ve attained your goals, but find them unsatisfying. Time to begin something new.

Ah Lee Bursten. Funnily enough, I had an occasion to exchange some words with him online just a few days ago - first time for ages. I had the opportunity I'd been waiting for for a long time to say I regret some of our sometimes acrimonious (mostly mine - he received the brunt of it poor guy!!) discussions on the meanings of the minors in the TdM a long time ago. I don't regret what I said but I could have toned it down a bit!! He's a very good and honest man, Lee.

I think it's important in the Tarot that the numbers in the pips correspond to the Majors. Because they do. Lee's descriptions above do this quite well and I think they're fine, could be elaborated on a bit more however. EXCEPT for the number 8. And that's where it all falls through for me. It seems to me that this is more of a number 11 (Strength) that he's describing. Lee swears that he didn't use RWS interpretations for his meanings, and I believe him. Like I said, Lee is an honest man. (This is what we actually exchanged about recently). But the number 8 has to be about adjustment and justice. It can't be otherwise in the Tarot of Marseilles. It is an incredibly important number this number 8, and Lee missed the mark here. And as he swears it's got nothing to do the RWS, then maybe he did this unconsciously ??

I don't think he's a member here. But if his ears start burning, maybe he'll find us here and he can come and explain and put things right if I'm wrong. I promise I won't jump down his throat (maybe though I'll be the pesky little TdM dog).

Diana wrote: ↑25 Jan 2020, 16:18
I think it's important in the Tarot that the numbers in the pips correspond to the Majors. Because they do.

Hi Diana,

I used to think the TdM Atouts and Pips must correspond. I no longer do. The main reason I have disavowed that theory is because so many tarot historians have challenged me on this former belief of mine, and rightly so. I could not defend it against the historical evidence of the different numberings, and even non-numberings of the atouts, among the different decks through out the formative historical period. It only works if we take the deck when it becomes fixed in the tradition, e.g., Noblet TdM. But then we have to deal with decks such as the Minchiate, equally valid, but an entirely different numbering of the atouts.

Further there are 22 atouts, but only 10 numbers. What do we do with atouts 11-22, and Le Mat which has NO number (the Zero being a rws aberration and abnormality in the tradition)? Are we to simply say that atouts 1-10 have precedence, or superiority in the atouts/pips correspondences? (And btw I have tried - unsuccessfully - to apply atouts 11-22 as "reversals" pips 1-10. )

All that being said, aouts = pips IS workable, just as much as Platonic numerology, Chaldean numerology, hermetic numerology, etc., are equally workable for effective and accurate readings. The point, for me personally, being they all work on some level, and none has ever proven ultimately superior to the others. So, I advise my students and apprentices to choose a system, any coherent system, and then make "your deal with the universe" that that is the system you are committed to; and the "universe will supply" clientele, questions, AND lays of the cards, completely appropriate to, and in conformity with that chosen system.

Respectfully,
Graciously,
Belenus

Belenus wrote: ↑25 Jan 2020, 18:02
I used to think the TdM Atouts and Pips must correspond. I no longer do. The main reason I have disavowed that theory is because so many tarot historians have challenged me on this former belief of mine, and rightly so. I could not defend it against the historical evidence of the different numberings, and even non-numberings of the atouts, among the different decks through out the formative historical period. It only works if we take the deck when it becomes fixed in the tradition, e.g., Noblet TdM. But then we have to deal with decks such as the Minchiate, equally valid, but an entirely different numbering of the atouts.

I don't see what the other historical decks such as the Minchiate have to do in a discussion about how to interpret the Tarot of Marseilles which is a tradition in itself, inspired by some earlier cards, but then became a thing of itself in its own right. I find it fascinating to explore Tarot history, and to see how the cards have evolved. But it doesn't help the TdM if we're going to mix up all sorts of things and add this and add that. A mojito is a mojito. You can't put an orange instead of the lime. It's not a mojito then. A Tarot of Marseilles is a Mojito, not a Pina Colada.

Further there are 22 atouts, but only 10 numbers. What do we do with atouts 11-22, and Le Mat which has NO number (the Zero being a rws aberration and abnormality in the tradition)? Are we to simply say that atouts 1-10 have precedence, or superiority in the atouts/pips correspondences? (And btw I have tried - unsuccessfully - to apply atouts 11-22 as "reversals" pips 1-10. )

Well, you're the one aren't you who spoke of in another thread of how the Majors are paired - you mentioned the Pope and the Devil; I brought up the 1 and the 11. (strength... not justice). The Number X in the TdM is the Wheel turning... it turns again all the way to the Arcanum XX, but on a different level. There is a 7x3 structure in the Tarot, but also a 2x10.

All that being said, aouts = pips IS workable, just as much as Platonic numerology, Chaldean numerology, hermetic numerology, etc., are equally workable for effective and accurate readings. The point, for me personally, being they all work on some level, and none has ever proven ultimately superior to the others. So, I advise my students and apprentices to choose a system, any coherent system, and then make "your deal with the universe" that that is the system you are committed to; and the "universe will supply" clientele, questions, AND lays of the cards, completely appropriate to, and in conformity with that chosen system.

Any method will work with tarot cards or divination cards. If I decide that the suit of Cups corresponds to strife and disputes, it will be so. If I decide that the Bateleur is actually the Devil in disguise, it'll work. They're just pieces of cardboard with pictures on them. Cardboard and ink have no inherent power or wisdom.

If we're to read the Tarot, we have to recognise that it has some kind of structure. After that, if we decide to go along with a Pythagorean system of numbers, or something else... so be it. But it has to make sense and I expect people in this case to back up their theories with facts and reasons and to show that they fit in with the structure of the Tarot and its layers.

Now, if it rains tomorrow, I'll try and read the raindrops falling down the window like Umbrae/Dan Pelletier used to do. That works quite well too apparently. But when I take out my Tarot cards later in the day, I'll recognise I hope that they are not raindrops.

All this being said, I think it is possible to NOT take the numbers in to account if one chooses not to. I'm convinced also that it's possible to read the cards by just looking at the actual card and its depictions. I've tried it a few times, but never done it seriously enough to make a proper assessment.

I do plan one day if someone doesn't before me to make a thread about this. Because the pictures on the cards should... if one is using a number system... have some bearing on the numbers. Otherwise we're just fiddling the Tarot to fit our personal whims and desires. Now one could ask "why can one NOT use it to fit our whims and desires?". And I'd say, there's nothing to stop you and it may very well work perfectly.

But what would be the point ? Why use a deck like the Tarot of Marseilles, with its grandeur and splendour, and not exploit all its facets to the full. I'm sure there are facets we have not yet even dreamed of. And suddenly one day, we'll say "eureka!! There's a new key! Let's see if it fits somewhere!!".

Things have to come together to make a harmonious pattern - a majestic one should be the goal - because the Tarot of Marseilles is majestic. If they don't come together, then we're either not looking at them properly, or else we're on a wild goose chase. Now I love wild geese. But why on earth would I want to chase them instead of watching them fly in front of the sunset ? (This reminds me of the Sound of Music and My Favourite Things - wild geese that fly with the moon on their wings. I've had friends disown me when I tell them that The Sound of Music is one of my favourite movies. Others have suggestsed I be put under medication )

Here is a little ditty I learned quite a while ago. I agree with Diana about the number 5. But, this has helped me read the cards when I draw a blank. I certainly think one could read the pips by image alone, but I just can’t. I need some sort of system from which to work. It’s from Hedgewitchery. Try not to gasp

Kellydii wrote: ↑29 Jan 2020, 23:43 Here is a little ditty I learned quite a while ago. I agree with Diana about the number 5. But, this has helped me read the cards when I draw a blank. I certainly think one could read the pips by image alone, but I just can’t. I need some sort of system from which to work. It’s from Hedgewitchery. Try not to gasp

I think you meant the number 8, not 5.

On your list, I don't understand why 7 brings trouble. That is particularly troublesome to me (lol). 7s are a Divine number - a number of completeness. In scriptural mythology, it is the day that God rested after having done all his work to create the universe and he was apparently perfectly satisfied.

Nor do I understand why 8s are about ideas and thoughts. It's about justice - cause and effect. Harmony - and how easy it is to disturb the harmony by taking an incorrect action by violating the rules of cause and effect. For example.

I think of the 7’s in terms of magic and religion. Those things we turn to to cope with the problems that fate has assigned. The 7’s are the tests in life. How we respond or act in daily life. I like Caitlin Matthews idea of a lucky win for coins, a lucky break or to make peace for cups, a lucky idea for the Swords in the face of double trouble, And my fav which is a lucky chance, or the powers of chance, or a work of magic, for batons. So troubles come along, but we can find a way thru depending on the “7” card.
As for the 8’s being thoughts in the mind, once we have overcome the problems in the 7’s and life continues on, we have a chance to think about what happened and where we are now. We re-evaluate which leads to a growing understanding.
8’s are the base number for Justice and Moon. Justice representing left brained thinking: analytical, logical, scrutiny, while Moon represents right brained thinking: intuition, visions, dreams subconscious. So, perhaps we “think” about how we want to go forward. Which brings us to the 9’s. Change. For the better or for the worse.

Kellydii wrote: ↑07 Feb 2020, 02:18 I think of the 7’s in terms of magic and religion. Those things we turn to to cope with the problems that fate has assigned. The 7’s are the tests in life. How we respond or act in daily life. I like Caitlin Matthews idea of a lucky win for coins, a lucky break or to make peace for cups, a lucky idea for the Swords in the face of double trouble, And my fav which is a lucky chance, or the powers of chance, or a work of magic, for batons. So troubles come along, but we can find a way thru depending on the “7” card.
As for the 8’s being thoughts in the mind, once we have overcome the problems in the 7’s and life continues on, we have a chance to think about what happened and where we are now. We re-evaluate which leads to a growing understanding.
8’s are the base number for Justice and Moon. Justice representing left brained thinking: analytical, logical, scrutiny, while Moon represents right brained thinking: intuition, visions, dreams subconscious. So, perhaps we “think” about how we want to go forward. Which brings us to the 9’s. Change. For the better or for the worse.

Okay. I reckon what numerology we use is a personal one. As long as it's consistent.

But I still don't see WHY 7s are tests in life. I don't see where it fits in with the symbolism of the number 7. I think this is more or less plucked out of a hat, even if Caitlin Matthews says this. Did she not come from an RWS background initially ? I don't know much about her.

Idem with the number 8. In a lot of people's minds - it's hard to get rid of old habits - an 8 is more of a Strength than a Justice. But there can be a re-evaluation in the 8 as you mention. That makes sense as it's about Justice and Adjustment. Justice can't be completely immobile - immobility is death. There has to be some kind of movement. And I can go along with the left brained thinking and its relationship to the Moon. Of course, it has a relation to the Moon and it's nice to remember this.

So I'm almost all agreed with you except for the number 7 which was in the ancient times considered even as symbol of paradise. It's a perfect number - not only literally but also figuratively.

Of course, numbers act differently according to the element they are in. And that's the next thread I'd like to start up. Which element goes with which suit. Two are pretty obvious it seems to me - the other two less so. So if one wishes to use the elements in our interpretation of our readings, one has to sort that out. I want to start that thread this weekend. And after that, I think we can start playing a bit with the cards and our first discoveries.

Of course, it is a difficult task but Movement in the exchange rate is measured by pips. Since most currency pairs are quoted to a maximum of four decimal places, the smallest change for these pairs is 1 pip. The value of a pip can be calculated by dividing 1/10,000 or 0.0001 by the exchange rate.