Pip cards and no clear reverse. Help!

[Blue moon]

Hello,
I am new to this forum and I am a beginner. I absolutely love the TdM but I am going through various books that explain the meanings of the pip cards (straight and reverse) and I noticed that in my deck for many of the pip cards is not possible to understand when they are straight and reverse in the first place. Is there another way of reading them? Like the 2 of wands, the 5 of coins, the 6 of coins etc. no matter which side I turn them they are the same. Any help would be great. Thank you!!!

[Charlie Brown]

Hi Blue Moon. Welcome to the forum.

I read mainly with TdM myself. First off, it's important to understand that most historians agree that people didn't read reversals until well into the 19th century and, even then, it was something that became more associated with esoteric tarots rather than the Marseille. Most of the readers I know either don't read reversals at all or only read reversals when using majors-only.

For those readers who do use reversals with the pips, it is most common, I think to only 'reverse' those cards that look definitively different when reversed: all of the cups, odd swords, etc. Finally, if someone wants to read reversals with ALL of the pips, most mass market decks will have a small copyright indication on one side of the card. By looking at the position of the copyright, you can tell if a symmetrical card is upright or reversed. Personally, I don't encourage this because I think it's super lame to rely on a corporate copyright label in order to be able to interpret your cards. But other people feel differently.

Personally, I don't use reversals when reading the the TdM.

[Blue moon]

Thank you Charlie Brown for replying to me! I didn't know about the fact that the cards were not read as reversed until the 19th century. I also use an historical deck from the 18th century so it would make more sense not read them in that way then. However, the books I found they always have a meaning for the reverse pips that is opposite to the meaning of the cards when they are upright. If I only use the cards as upright, which meaning do I need to use in order to read them, only the positive? Is there any book that interprets the pips only upright as they used to be read and that you would recommend?
Thanks!

[JudyK]

... However, the books I found they always have a meaning for the reverse pips that is opposite to the meaning of the cards when they are upright...

It sounds like these books were written with "modern" decks in mind. If TdM is what you love, you'd be better served reading books for TdM. There are a few listed in the "BOOKS about the Tarot de Marseille" section viewforum.php?f=83, and for working with pip decks generally, I can personally recommend "Tarot on Earth: a practical approach to the cards" by Tom Benjamin.

[Charlie Brown]

Thank you Charlie Brown for replying to me! I didn't know about the fact that the cards were not read as reversed until the 19th century. I also use an historical deck from the 18th century so it would make more sense not read them in that way then. However, the books I found they always have a meaning for the reverse pips that is opposite to the meaning of the cards when they are upright. If I only use the cards as upright, which meaning do I need to use in order to read them, only the positive? Is there any book that interprets the pips only upright as they used to be read and that you would recommend?
Thanks!

Like Judy said, it seems like maybe you have books designed for modern RWS-style tarots. If you DO want to keep up with pip reading and reversals, the Ben-Dov book provides reversed meanings only for the cards that visually reverse themselves.

To me, reading TdM is a little bit of a different beast from mainstream tarot reading. Especially with the pips, I think that's it's less about specific card meanings and more about the context and how the cards interact. To be honest, I advise people learning TdM to start with only using the majors for reading. However, I don't think I've ever met any beginners who are starting on TdM and not a modern deck.

We do have a TdM reading circle here most months. Not only are you welcome to sign up for that next month (sign-ups are always the first week of the month), you can poke around the archives and get a sense for many different readers' approaches.

Back to books, if you got Ben=Dov's The Marseille Tarot Revealed and Caitlin Matthews Untold Tarot you would have two different approaches and, between the two, you could probably really get started. I think Matthews is ultimately the superior approach but the book is probably less friendly to beginners.

Given the books you seem to have, you may, instead, want to experiment with a Rider-Waite-Smith

[Blue moon]

Thank you so much, everyone!! I have now ordered some of the books you suggested and I will check the forum for the Marseille tarot reading, thank you for suggesting it
I did buy the Smith-Waite tarots but I was not very inspired by the images, maybe a little too modern. I love the images of the Marseille decks and I was very much intrigued by the history, so I got myself a historic facsimile from 1754 (Claude Rochias) that I absolutely love and I hope to learn to read it properly. I am really happy to have found this forum and thank you so much for all your advice!

[Charlie Brown]

Oooh. The Rochias is an interesting one. I wouldn't mind that myself. As you may or may not know, many (but not all) of the figures in the Rochias face the opposite direction from most Marseilles. I think It would be good exercise for me to use it with some of the directional reading techniques that you can read about in the Matthew's book. It's easy to get into certain habits and that's a good way to break them.

[Maskelyne]

I don't usually use reversals, but if I do on a pip deck, I consider cards which look the same reversed are the same reversed. I consider that as part of the character of the card. As for the meanings of the pips, there are various systems designed for reading the TdM; look into some of the books and videos that have been recommended here.

[Blue moon]

Thanks Charlie Brown. Yes the Rochias has some mirrored cards which is quite interesting historically.
I am very fascinated by the history of these decks and who copied whom. And I would love to see some original decks in a museum, maybe one day.