Cult of Tarot Forum

Does anyone have any insight as to why the Death card in Tarot de Marseille is "unnanmed" in French?

Is there a taboo or some interesting other story behind that decision?

Joan Marie wrote: ↑10 May 2020, 14:49 Does anyone have any insight as to why the Death card in Tarot de Marseille is "unnanmed" in French?

Is there a taboo or some interesting other story behind that decision?

I was just about to create a thread about the TdM Death card, but you've already provided one.

I have no idea about the origins of that particular description, it sounds very philosophical or superstitious at the very least, something akin to some theories that specific cards from some renaissance decks, such as the Visconti series, might have been discarded or put aside because of their negative associations, e. Death, 3 of swords, etc.

However, I did find a renaissance Death image which might be of interest.
The horse has a very contemporary post modern look to it, but most revealing for me, was the image in the top-right corner of the fountain.

Now, I know where the historic and symbolic basis of the TdM Ace of Cups originates from.
This is a Sicilian fresco ca. 1445

Papageno wrote: ↑10 May 2020, 16:28 Now, I know where the historic and symbolic basis of the TdM Ace of Cups originates from.

There was a pretty interesting discussion about the Ace of Cups that bubbled up in another thread over in Plato's Cave.
viewtopic.php?f=232&t=2199

The consensus was that the thing pictured on the ace of cups is a monstrance.



Yes, we all learned a new word that day.

And yet, seeing that on a fountain somehow seems more fitting for the suit of cups.

EDIT: I posted this also in another thread about the Ace of Cups that came up at the same time as this one.

Still wondering if anyone has any insight about the TdM death card.

Thanks very much for that heads-up JM.

I've posted a couple of more pictures on this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2745

so as not to derail your original discussion about the origins of: "That which is unnamed"

however, I will add that no previous comments I read about water overflowing the Ace of Cup's, nor the TdM image ever really made sense to me until I saw that particular image of the fountain-top with the water spouts, etc.
** We now return you to your regularly scheduled program and topic**

In the third sentence of the Bible, God "says"! So God begins to name things. Card 3 is linked to speech, card 13 is also linked to the verb. The "word" is also a symbol (it represents something). This card evokes what is not symbolized or unnamed. Man, after God, can name things, and what is deep inside him (what he feels). An adage says that "Great pains are wordless”. The things that we cannot define, explain, name, create obstacles for our humanity, our emotional, mental and social development. Carnal death (and many things) remains an eternal mystery, we have no explanation, it is indefinable. Unknown things can scare us, Naming things reassures us. And then, God is also called the Unnamable!

This card evokes "symbolic death" but it also has other meanings which are very strong.

Jean

Jean wrote: ↑13 May 2020, 16:50 Unknown things can scare us, Naming things reassures us. And then, God is also called the Unnamable!

This card evokes "symbolic death" but it also has other meanings which are very strong.

Thank you for this Jean. So it sounds to me like the intention is for it to be a frightening card?

I think we've all learned to not get too excited when we see the Death card. "It doesn't really mean Death!" we're told. It means "Change" or "an ending" but by not naming the card, we are left with the more intense (scary) meaning, are we not?

Death has many times meant actual death of a person or the dead. I sometimes feel like we neuter the power of the card to suggest it means transition or simply a stoppage. Especially in the TdM where death is actively reaping. I can see the RWS card coming across as less “extreme” as Death is not an active figure in the card and there are remaining living people in the scene. In the TdM Death is harvesting body parts. Let’s allow the card to encompass all of it’s possible meanings, including literal death.

Merrick wrote: ↑14 May 2020, 01:54 Death has many times meant actual death of a person or the dead. I sometimes feel like we neuter the power of the card

This card talks about the theme of death, yes but in much broader aspects than carnal death. The TdM is first of all initiatory, that is why I speak of "symbolic death", this to evoke the transformations of humanity.

* * *
Yes, this card evokes what is scary! This is very useful, because we have to learn not to fear what is scary or deadly. I believe this because I saved a few lives (two cars meeting and the drivers were motionless, stunned, 2 seconds before the shock. I was the passenger in one of the cars, I have avoid shock. I think we should fear death like everyone, except when the situation comes.

And then there are more frightening things than death! I did rope-free climbing, one day I was stuck on a wall, my hands were paralyzed and one leg was trembling, no solution. I said to myself: if you let go it will be at least the wheelchair. I was scared of a wheelchair and I didn’t think about death, because it wasn’t the scariest thing. The fact of "saying" my fear internally and understanding it, I was no longer shaking and I found a way out. But maybe if I was basically afraid of death ...

With the card 13, there is indeed a very strong meaning, that of "change" and "transformation". In the alchemical tradition, often 5 concepts: the principle of life (1), the manifestation of the principle (2), the transformation of the principle (3), the realization (4), and the quintessence of principle.

01 02 03 04 05 principle
06 07 08 09 10 manifestation
11 12 13 14 15 transformation
16 17 18 19 20 realization

(21, the quintessence of the principle)

We observe that the card 13 is in horizontal and vertical crossing of the number 3! It’s the transformation of the transformation! We also observe that Map 18 (which also evokes the introspection) is also in the third (vertical) principle!

Jean

Hi Joan Marie,

Good question.

The thing is, we find that the one of the earliest lists of the trumps, the Sermones de Ludo Cum Aliis, calls this card La Morte in the 15th century. And one of the earliest French decks, the Noblet (~1650) does in fact have a name on card XIII: http://www.tarot-history.com/Jean-Noble ... a-mort.jpg

Jean-Claude Flornoy notes that:

The originality of this extremely elegant tarot resides in its age and its unusually small size. It is the oldest known tarot of the "Marseille" tradition. One of its many particularities is that it dares identify Arcanum XIII, usually unnamed, and frankly call it « death ».

http://www.tarot-history.com/Jean-Noblet/index.html

After this, we do not typically encounter the name until the late 18th century, and if we look at Yves Reynaud and Wilfried Houdouin’s gallery of historic tarot decks, we see that the Rochias deck of 1782 does have a name - although not placed beneath the image as with the other cards.
https://www.tarot-de-marseille-heritage ... iques.html

The Vandenborre of 1780 also has a name. (Neither French nor Marseilles, it is true, but still.)

Robert O’Neill’s essay also gives many useful pointers in terms of iconography: https://www.tarot.com/tarot/robert-oneill/death-cards

Why the name has disappeared and reappeared well over a century later remains a mystery, I’m afraid. Was it due to the size of the image and frame, or was it for reasons of taboo? I don't know. However, I don’t want to conclude without giving this piece of insight from Bertrand, a contemporary French card-maker whose name many of you will recognise:

I trust the card-makers: those who put a name on this card knew what they were doing, just as those who were the first to remove the name did too - which also allows us to admire and to meditate on these works in their diversity.

http://www.ff-tarot.com/forum/les-arcan ... 04464.html

I suspect that it was originally a matter of either superstition or squeamishness that prompted a card-maker to omit the title on the XIII card, and it became part of the Marseille tradition. In my less than exhaustive search, the earliest deck in which all the trumps except XIII are named is the Dodal of c. 1701. In Besançon decks, the 1780 Miller deck names La Mort, (as does the 1JJ Swiss), but others do not. The 1880 clone of Della Rocca's soprafino that Lo Scarabeo sells as the Ancient Italian names it Il Tredici, which I believe is how Italian card players referred to the unnamed trump.

There are obviously several interpretations or schools. If the word "death" has disappeared for a century, was it a royal edict that prohibited this word ? By the way, I admire your iconographic research

In Paris, I had a Tarot teacher who talked about alchemical thought. He said that if card 13 "corresponded" to death, this card would be the last in the game! The absence of the name leaves room for other reflections and questions. This is one of the main objectives of TdM. In "the language of birds" in French, "death" is pronounced like "the soul out". There are multiple evocations in the TdM. These indirect evocations speak to the unconscious. Talking about hypnosis and tarot techniques, like Dodalisque, is therefore very relevant.

When we draw the cards for another person who does not know the tarot, seeing a skeleton is already "terrifying", so if the word "dead" is associated with the image, it can, even more, psychologically block the person.

I adhere very strongly to this absence of name, because this card evokes the depths of being, if we have a psychological research. On this subject, the Tarot de Marseille is very specific with its optical illusions, and its objects which are symbols which also evoke more than the object itself (language of the birds). There are, in my experience, two very large optical illusions in this card 13, and these two illusions combine to amplify their effects! It’s really strong! One of these optical illusions concerns a physiological reaction which then generates an essential psychic reaction. Overall, this mechanism acts on traumas which are not (or no longer) conscious, which we cannot consciously express with words.

I therefore invite all those who read the tarot to think that, behind the curtain of our consciousness, while we are seeking our interpretation, the images of TdM generate physiological and psychic reactions, in order to transform us. This discreet game of our transformation is particularly powerful with this card 13 (beyond the words)!

Jean wrote: ↑16 May 2020, 11:22In Paris, I had a Tarot teacher who talked about alchemical thought. He said that if card 13 "corresponded" to death, this card would be the last in the game!

Strange thought given that the Tarot also features a card of resurrection of the dead.

Yes, strange thought if you interpret card 13 as "carnal death", because in this card 13, the idea of the resurrection is already present! The card goes far beyond the theme of death.

Jean wrote: ↑16 May 2020, 11:22 If the word "death" has disappeared for a century, was it a royal edict that prohibited this word ?

If it were a royal edict, there should be a of it somewhere. A more local law is a possibility, but I think it most likely was the decision of a card-maker or group of card-makers. But, part of the mystery of Tarot is the lack of information regarding the intentions of its various creators; it has left each generation of card readers free to develop our own mythologies.

Jean wrote: ↑16 May 2020, 11:22In Paris, I had a Tarot teacher who talked about alchemical thought. He said that if card 13 "corresponded" to death, this card would be the last in the game!

Alchemically, the card is related to putrefaction, the process by which substance is reduced to its lowest state, so that its essence can be extracted.

Jean wrote: ↑16 May 2020, 11:22I adhere very strongly to this absence of name, because this card evokes the depths of being, if we have a psychological research.

The more I think about it, the more I appreciate the namelessness. Perhaps the XIII is not merely unnamed, but unnameable; hinting at mysteries beyond the veil.