Cult of Tarot Forum

Nemia wrote: ↑14 Jul 2018, 04:47
I totally agree about Justice and Strength - it makes me crazy when people call Waite's change "traditional" only because they're not aware that there are older traditions!

stronglove wrote: ↑13 Jul 2018, 23:52 my first ever tarot deck was the gran tarot esoterico, a marseilles based pip deck. i didn’t really ‘get’ tarot at that time and the teacher of a tarot course i took back then dismissed my deck as ‘incorrect’ because of the variations on the standard images, she was also much more into the rider waite, which i never really liked.
so my preference for TdM style decks has remained through the years, and i am always confused and a bit disappointed when i open a new deck and find the strength card at 8 and justice at 11. it somehow feels totally wrong for me.
at this time i own a lot of ‘classical’ and more modern marseilles style decks and i would love to spend more time with them and exchange readings.
i prefer to use my TdM decks with at least 3 (preferably more) cards. i never start with a question, i usually draw 4 or 5 cards, lay them out next to eachother and then create a story based on the interaction between the cards. would love to see how others work with their TdM.....

ParsifalsWheel wrote: ↑17 Jul 2018, 11:44 The Tarot de Marseille has been something of an exhilarating challenge for me for some time now. I'm a long-time Thoth reader and no great fan of the RWS (although it's fun from a story-telling perspective), and have found that the Crowley/Harris "glorified pip" cards often closely adhere to the design of the TdM pips, except where Crowley felt compelled to introduce his esoteric trappings: inverted pentagrams, Tree of Life glyphs, etc. I've been through The Open Reading twice now and am presently reading The Way of Tarot. I've been aware of Jodorowsky from the early '70s as a surrealistic film-maker, and in my blog post of this morning I called his insights "refreshingly peculiar and curiously enlightening." At some point I'll post a review of the entire book. Lately I've been applying Joseph Maxwell's numerological approach to the TdM pips, coupling them with J.E. Cirlot's geometric "graphics" from the Dictionary of Symbols to explore the patterns in the designs. I'm also awaiting Caitlin Matthews' and Andy Boroveshengra's TdM books.

Charlie Brown wrote: ↑23 Jul 2018, 07:01
A bit meta, but tonight I did a reading on reading with the TdM. Since this site doesn't seem to have a normal "Your Readings" type section, this seems like a fine place to post it.

I haven't been super happy with the work I've been doing with my Grimaud recently. I decided to ask the deck a series of questions about how I could improve with it. Before starting, I decided to use major-minor pairs and to contemplate the major prior to revealing the minor.

Q1: How can I read better when using this deck? (Moon + 2 of Coins)
This pair right here is why I thought it wise to draw pairs in the first place. Normally, when I (and probably you too) see The Moon I'm likely to think of dark emotions or the sub-conscious, secrets, the instinctual/reptilian mind, etc. As an answer to my question, that interpretation of The Moon probably says that I need to be more of an intuitive, emotionally responsive reader. That strikes me as the wrong answer. I use Marseille style decks specifically because I think they lend themselves better to more calculated, Apollonian reading styles without getting gummed up by excessive esoteric webbing. Thinking beyond the emotional, I focused on the dogs and, to a lesser extent, the buildings and was wondering if the number 2 or notions of duality had anything to do with the answer. Turning over the minor, I was delighted to see the 2 of Coins. How wonderful! Not only did the card reinforce my notion about the number 2 but those nice firm coins suggest that I was right that a less emotional approach is the right one for me in this situation.

Given the above, I'm probably on the right track with my paring technique. I did however look at The Moon some more and see the pair of dogs in the foreground and the pair of buildings in the background. A pair of pairs! With that in mind, I decided to draw two majors paired with two minors for the next questions.

Elemental dignities are something that I know very little about but have been simmering at the back of my mind for a few days. They generally aren't considered a traditional TdM technique but since they precede the Golden Dawn produced decks it stands to reason that they likely originated on TdM. In any case, as the example with the 2 of coins showed, I do use elemental symbolism in my TdM readings. So...

Q2: Would I perform better readings if I started using elemental dignities with this deck? (Strength + 7 of Wands, Sun + 8 of Wands)
Wowza! That's a lot of fire. Seeing Strength and The Sun next to each other seems like a strong endorsement of elemental dignities. Seeing that big mass of sequential wands backing it up only enhanced the effect. It does occur to me that it's possibly saying that it's too hot for me to handle but perhaps I'll try to harness that power and we'll see what happens.

Of course, elemental symbolism and astrology are closely related. Seeing Strength and The Sun next to each other like that did, I admit, make me think of Leo ruled by the Sun.

Q3: Would I perform better readings if I made a point of applying astrological symbolism to this deck? (Justice + Valet of Coins, Fool + 3 of Wands)
n.b. At first I thought the Page/Valet was reversed but looking closely at the little copyright I see I had the minors deck upside down. I don't think it actually makes too much of a difference here.
I took this as a no. Justice is rooted firmly in place and her pair of scales (back to The Moon / 2 of Coins) is well balanced. The Fool is moving off in another direction. He might end up in a good place, but that's not where we're at right now. The supporting minors reinforce this interpretation. The Valet has all he can carry with those two nice coins (another pair). Those coins will fit well on Justice's scales. Per Ben-Dov, I often think of the 3 of Wands as a card that represents being on a decided path, having a set direction, the aftermath of making a choice back at the crossroads of the 2 of Wands. The Fool has picked his direction and off he goes there, on his own.

Charlie Brown wrote: ↑17 Aug 2018, 23:37 Having read Caitlin Matthew's book now, I'm thinking the spread was referring to card pairing more than elemental dignities. That makes more sense with the draw anyways. Although she doesn't make it explicit, her suit combination characteristics actually is (more or less) a form of elemental reading.

BreathingSince72 wrote: ↑19 Aug 2018, 15:02

Charlie Brown wrote: ↑17 Aug 2018, 23:37 Having read Caitlin Matthew's book now, I'm thinking the spread was referring to card pairing more than elemental dignities. That makes more sense with the draw anyways. Although she doesn't make it explicit, her suit combination characteristics actually is (more or less) a form of elemental reading.

That’s funny because, when describing the text, she states that there is nothing at all esoteric about her book. I think sometimes we just can’t get away from that. Did you notice the error on page 37? (It was not an error by Caitlyn but rather an error by the layout editor or publisher).

Charlie Brown wrote: ↑19 Aug 2018, 15:21

BreathingSince72 wrote: ↑19 Aug 2018, 15:02

Charlie Brown wrote: ↑17 Aug 2018, 23:37 Having read Caitlin Matthew's book now, I'm thinking the spread was referring to card pairing more than elemental dignities. That makes more sense with the draw anyways. Although she doesn't make it explicit, her suit combination characteristics actually is (more or less) a form of elemental reading.

That’s funny because, when describing the text, she states that there is nothing at all esoteric about her book. I think sometimes we just can’t get away from that. Did you notice the error on page 37? (It was not an error by Caitlyn but rather an error by the layout editor or publisher).

I don't think elemental associations are esoteric in nature. The four elements were front and center in the cosmology of the time. Esoteric doesn't mean free from symbolism, it means needing hidden, specialized knowledge to interpret what otherwise seems like a straightforward deck of cards. Reading Kaballah into the cards is an esoteric correspondence because not only do you need special education to even know what Kaballah is, but you need to "discover" that the Kaballah is hidden in the cards. There was nothing secret about the elements to anyone back then. It was kind of the equivalent of two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions, on a sesame seed bun. We know what that's about.

The part I was talking about that more or less turns into elemental reading is the bit on 129-130

There are small errors throughout the book.

BreathingSince72 wrote: ↑19 Aug 2018, 17:41 That makes sense.

Jean-Michel David in his book”Reading the Marseilles Tarot” talks about social groups implied by each of the implements. (I am (?) a sociology major so this was right up my alley). He started with the swords and describes how they represent nobility. In modern times, this could represent government, courts, police, etc. Denierscould represents craft guilds, merchants, bankers, and retailers. Cups could be religious workers, creative artists and there is some crossover between this suit and the former. Batons would have been associated with land workers, vagabonds and beggars and in modern times with blue collar, mining and construction work. This was only a small part of what he taught about implements in the suits.

I’m looking forward to the chapter on courts as he has a graph which illustrates different types of crowns and the province and status that went with them. His work, I feel, will heavily influence how I read historic tarots.

Victoria

Charlie Brown wrote: ↑19 Aug 2018, 19:16
I'm really looking forward to that book, but I haven't read it yet. Actually, the only part I have read is the excerpt about the crowns. That part's really good and makes me think the rest of it is going to be a treat.