Cult of Tarot Forum

When I requested an interview with Rachel Pollack I promised her I wouldn't ask if she read reversals.
"Oh, the dreaded reversals question!" she replied.

I know that reversals is a topic that has been ground down a lot, but it does come up here and there and now I am the one presenting it.

What I am wondering about is do those of you who read Tarot de Marseille read reversals or not? I'm sure the answer varies but I'm wondering if there is a generally recognised feeling on that amongst TdM aficionados.

My personal feeling about reversals in general is that the positive or negative aspects of any card are revealed by the spread and the surrounding cards and the question being asked.

I am to lazy to try and read upside-down cards. They just don't speak to me at all and I am puzzled by and in admiration of anyone who is able to do it. I simply can't. But I digress.

My question is specifically to do with TdM and the traditional ways it is read. is there a recognised opinion on TdM reversals or is it just like any other tarot deck in this regard?

Up until now I’ve mainly ignored reversals, but here is what Yoav Ben-Dov wrote about them in his book:

“When a card appears inverse we shall read it as the same factor working in the opposite direction, which is contrary to the querent’s wishes or interests. This means that the inversion stresses the less positive aspects of the card... While this approach may be useful, we may feel that it is still too formal and doesn’t relate to the most basic fact about inverse cards: when a card is inverse, it looks different. Therefore, to go deeper into the meaning of an inverse card, we need to consider the visual effect of its inversion.”

He then goes on to give examples of how the visual nature of the cards change when they’re inverted. For example, Force upright shows a woman controlling a lion whose head is at her pelvis, suggesting a triumph of intellect over base desire, but flipping it may mean that animal passions are overriding sound judgement, etc.

I may work on introducing reversals into my TdM readings to use them on this visual level.

I’d be curious to know whether the French use reversals in traditional TdM readings or not.

Traditionally, no. Reversals, to the best of my knowledge, originated with Eteilla. Anecdotally, I don't think most contemporary French readers reverse either, but many famous ones certainly do. Hader did, I think.

I may be off base about this, but I think it was Waite who popularized them more broadly and he did so because they were a substitute for elemental dignities, which he didn't want to talk about lest he violate his Golden Dawn oaths. As I said, that might be wildly wrong.

Charlie Brown wrote: ↑11 May 2020, 19:53 I may be off base about this, but I think it was Waite who popularized them more broadly and he did so because they were a substitute for elemental dignities, which he didn't want to talk about lest he violate his Golden Dawn oaths. As I said, that might be wildly wrong.

This is so interesting.

So prior to Waite, reversals weren't really so much of a "thing" at all?

And, were the elemental dignities introduced by Crowley in the Thoth deck in violation of his Golden Dawn Oaths?

EDIT: And since TdM is "pre-occult" it would seem like reversals/elemental dignities would not apply.

I'm just spitballing here, trying to understand.

I’m not sure Crowley cared much about oaths he’d taken to a defunct organization that he had left acrimoniously many decades before.

No, Crowley was happy to spill any and all of the secrets. Keep in mind, though, that the occultists started out with TdMs or else things that were very close (I mean, really, Wirth is a TdM) so, to my understanding, reversals arrived in tarot when people tried to transfer Etellia's ideas away from his specific deck. That's still over 100 years ago though, so it isn't like a new fad.

The answer does vary of course. The problem is compounded by the fact that a lot of the TdM reading methods are either derived or influenced by Etteilla’s methodology, which includes reversed cards. As a result, some authors have gone to great lengths to detect the slightest differences in the pip cards in order to distinguish one direction from another (e.g. the little comma-like sprouts found in some of the pips, as per Marteau).

Others do not bother at all with this contrivance, and others yet say to simply assign an arbitrary direction by putting a dot or something on each card (for the pips, that is). Some writers also point out that some cards appear identical in either direction, and therefore ask the obvious question as to how a card might have two opposing sets of meanings when it is essentially the same? This highlights the difference between what we might call a DM-based interpretation as opposed to the visual-based mode.

The writers who emphasise the visual aspect can and do justify the idea of reversals and interpret them according to this method (Camoin, for instance, or Ben Dov), rather than simply invert the meaning, or give it a negative spin, as seems to be the general approach.

And some readers/writers do not use reversals at all, preferring to infer the particular meaning of a given card from the question, from its position in the spread, from the overall spread itself, as well as from its neighbouring cards. This, to the best of my knowledge, is the most common method used in French circles.

Typically, if one is still unsure about the use of reversals or not, one useful way to determine the usefulness of including a particular set of reversed meanings will be to examine the supposedly negative cards, XII, XIII, XVI, etc. The Hanged Man is often the giveaway: visually, he is upright, and not hanging anymore, but still attached by one foot with his hands restrained behind his back. So, some say this sense attenuates the usual negative reading, meaning delays, surmountable obstacles, etc. Whereas for, say, the Tower, some might be inclined to see it as being even worse than upright. Is a "bad" card worse? Or is it grudgingly positive? Etc.

Presumably, the optimal solution would be to have a sound grasp of the usual, upright meanings, as well as a clear idea of one’s own preference in reading methods (DM-based, visual-based, etc.). That way, either deriving one’s own meanings or simply reading reversed cards the way they fall will make a lot more sense on a practical level. Trial and error will likely prove to be the key.

To conclude, I will note that some writers see the use of reversals as doubling the number of potential interpretations in a meaning, where others will see it as halving them instead (by straitjacketing the reader into a particular interpretation). Ultimately, these are questions every serious reader will want to answer for themselves, and the utility and accuracy of the outcome will be the deciding factor.

Another method, which may be not be “canonical” but which some may find useful, is the principle expressed by P. Camoin with respect to reversed cards:

“When a card is in reverse position (of course from the perspective of the querent) it means that the energies of that card are blocked. If there is not already a card directly above the reversed card, another card is drawn and placed there. The new card is always placed upright. It indicates the solution, the direction to take, what needs to be done to remove the blockage of the reversed card below it. It is the card that "cures" the reversed card.”

https://en.camoin.com/tarot/Basic-Rules ... ethod.html

In passing, the man’s functional reading method has garnered more praise than criticism, unlike his deck or theories. Credit due, etc. Of course, his books are now becoming available in English, so we can expect to see more of this sort of reading becoming popular in the near future.

For many years, I read without reversals and was very happy with it. It went against my art-loving grain to reverse an image. After watching a video by John Ballantrae many years ago, I asked him about reversals, and he wrote back that sometimes putting a picture upside down reveals things we didn't see before.

I remembered then that in "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain", one of the exercises includes turning a picture upside down which made it much easier to copy because the structure of the lines is no longer confused by "pre-conceptions" about "how X or Y should look".

And another memory came up - I read somewhere many years ago that printers and editors used to give a text a last check by reading it upside down because the more difficult act of reading made it easier to find that last elusive typo.

That was when I became interested in reversals. I remember writing more or less the same on AT some years ago, yes I did.

Let me quote from this old text what I wrote about the most useful acronym:

I found the most useful idea for reversals is Benebell Wen's acronym WIND. I use it a bit differently from she does, but it's easy to remember. This is the original explanation:
Mnemonic for remembering card reversals: WIND.

W Weakened energy of card meaning due to being overpowered by other forces.

I Inverted meaning of card, i.e., the opposite of what the card would mean upright.

N Negative influence on Seeker (most notably in court cards; think N for nobility).

D Delay before outcome will materialize. Not all factors have fully matured yet.

Wen, Benebell (2015-01-20). Holistic Tarot: An Integrative Approach to Using Tarot for Personal Growth (Kindle Locations 6016-6022). North Atlantic Books. Kindle Edition.

The "inverted" meaning for me is influenced by something I read here on AT, was it Grizabella, Nisaba or another fount of wisdom? Reversed cards can mean that the energy is inverted - instead of feeling bad, you make someone feel bad; instead of feeling disappointed or surprised, you disappoint or surprise somebody.

So the card's energy is either weakened or its flow is inverted, its effect is negative or delayed.

Later, I read Joan Bunnings' book on reversals. That's interesting, too. For her, it works like a wave - there's a phase of rising energies, a crest, and then the fading out. If we follow her, the upright card is the crest of the energy. And the reversed card is either the undeveloped or the fading energy. Or the total absence.

that sounds great in theory but I found it unpractical to use. Let's say my friend asks me whether she will meet the man of her dreams, and there he is, the reversed King of Cups. Is that the guy who just left her, fading from her life? Is it a new arrival in her life who will soon climb on stage? Or is it the total absence of love right now?

to answer all these questions, of course I have to do the work we always do in tarot, putting everything into context. And then, the reversal is no longer so dominant or relevant.

In short, I stopped reading reversals. I note them, they're like brackets or exclamation marks, but I turn the card around. No matter which deck. (When I tried using reversals, I did so with RWS tradition decks, never with Thoth or TdM style decks).

Thanks so much _R_

You point out a a very specific to TdM issue which is how do you really know when the pips are reversed?
Also, in your subsequent post, there is the question of, reversed to whom? Reader or sitter? I wish I was good enough to read upside-down cards, but my brain scrambles if they aren't right-side up. I really admire anyone who can do that. Of course it is better for the sitter to be looking at the cards correctly, but with me we have to be sitting on the same side of the table for that. Reversed cards don't speak to me, or rather, I can't hear them.

Please note, I'm not trying to rain on anybody's parade about reading reversals. I've read some very compelling discussions about it and I know there is very persuasive reasoning on every side. In the end it is a personal choice, a style. An ability.

_R_ wrote: ↑12 May 2020, 03:23 Typically, if one is still unsure about the use of reversals or not, one useful way to determine the usefulness of including a particular set of reversed meanings will be to examine the supposedly negative cards, XII, XIII, XVI, etc. The Hanged Man is often the giveaway: visually, he is upright, and not hanging anymore, but still attached by one foot with his hands restrained behind his back. So, some say this sense attenuates the usual negative reading, meaning delays, surmountable obstacles, etc. Whereas for, say, the Tower, some might be inclined to see it as being even worse than upright. Is a "bad" card worse? Or is it grudgingly positive? Etc.

This is kind of funny. I have seen both, where a reversed Tower means good news or extra-double-plus-bad news.

_R_ wrote: ↑12 May 2020, 03:23 To conclude, I will note that some writers see the use of reversals as doubling the number of potential interpretations in a meaning, where others will see it as halving them instead (by straitjacketing the reader into a particular interpretation). Ultimately, these are questions every serious reader will want to answer for themselves, and the utility and accuracy of the outcome will be the deciding factor.

Does a reversed card have just the opposite meaning or does it in fact have a meaning of it's own?
When people start off with the Tarot, learning reversals seems daunting. There's already so many cards and now I have to learn TWO meanings for each one? But really, most of the time in most books/lwb's, the reversed card meaning is just the opposite of the normal.

In the Book of Thoth though, the elemental dignities, which as Charlie Brown pointed out, are the possible inspiration for reversals, these are more complex treatments of these dichotomies. I don't have the book handy to give an example but I'm always so struck by how spot on the descriptions are of how a good characteristic can manifest badly in a certain light.

The thing is, to me, in books and manuals there is so often this clear separation of "Upright and Reversed." And this is where the reader gets "straight-jacketed." A card can't be interpreted a certain way unless it's reversed? To me that denies or reduces the complexity of human character, and limits the reader.
I prefer a description that just combines the good and bad aspects of each card, allowing the reader to work out what they are seeing in a given spread, at a certain time with a certain question at hand, with an understanding of complex possibilities. Is that guy I just met determined or stubborn? Confident or conceited? Can I only know if the card up Up or Down?

Then there is the idea of who even decides what is good or bad? For example to be selfish is generally considered a bad quality. But there are times when being selfish is exactly what's needed.

I think it's important to consider and be aware of the full spirit of a card, of all it's possibilities and a good manual/lwb would, for me, present it in that way. And to bring this all back to the TdM, it feels to me like, at least in regard to the pips, the idea of reversals feels very tacked on to me.

In regards to reversals of Marseille pips, most of the pips are recognizably different in one orientation versus another. For the swords, the center sword or flower will be pointing down instead of up. For cups, the cups themselves are upside down. For coins the orientation of the foliage growth goes downward instead of upward. Batons is the toughest but as batons are already both driving forward and stoppages (the energy of the suit is forward motion, but the overlapping sticks create grids of deadlock in the center), there’s much less need to worry about reversals because usually the context of the surrounding cards and question make it clear what a given baton card is telling us.

For the few pips that genuinely have no visual difference upright versus reversed, I just wouldn’t worry about it. If a reversal isn’t obvious, just treat it how you would if it were upright.

There is no definitive consensus about the orientation of the swords in the pip cards, although almost everyone would agree with this view. Any justification is usually based on analogy with the Ace, which is presumed to be held upright. But a closer study of the iconography of this type of emblem, as well as the various depictions of the suit, tell otherwise, viz. that the matter is not as clear-cut (no pun intended).
I have a vague recollection that J.-M. David mentions this in his book, one would have to check.

There are very good things that have been said, here.

Books that talk about prediction and clairvoyance give a lot of negative interpretations with the cards upside down (selling drama is a good business deal). A more philosophical or initiatory approach does not need to give negative meaning to the maps (the map is not the territory).

According to a more philosophical approach, the cards say what is there! It’s like giving birth, it looks easy or more difficult. The maps upside down can generally show that the situation may be more difficult to integrate and digest. Intuitively, we understand that.

Turning over inverted cards is a symbolic act (we want to turn the situation around), it's already a commitment!

The cards upside down can confuse us if our question is poorly defined. The "reflection" of the tarot will reflect our lack of realism. Work on the issue is fundamental. A relevant question removes this doubt, this misunderstanding, with inverted cards.

Generally, cards that are "difficult" to read right now announce deeper work ("you will give birth in pain"). Often, "easy" maps can direct our gaze too much to the surface of things. So you have to stay focused.

In my practice, I sometimes spend 10 or 15 minutes to understand the situation of the person, and redefine the best questions that we need to deepen. My interpretation is not determined by the positive or negative meanings of the cards. Cards mean something to a person, not to the cards themselves. Prior discussion (understanding and rephrasing the questions) is essential for me (to have a good consultation). But, I admit very disturbing things: to draw the cards blind and to describe people (whom I do not know absolutely) gives relevant information! I’ve done of experiments on this phenomenon. I think the resources of the tarot are gigantic enough to avoid giving too rigid a meaning to the cards, especially if the meaning is negative. If not, wouldn't that be an obstacle for thinking and interpreting ?

Jean

It is not a TdM of course, but the Catelin Geoffroy 1557 is quite interesting in that it was numbered at the top and bottom, at the bottom reversed - so the number at least could be read whether the card itself was upright or reversed, e.g.,

The Hanged Man - XII at the top, IIX at the bottom:



Death - XIII at the top, IIIX at the bottom



Temperance, XIIII at the top, IIIIX at the bottom

KoyDeli wrote: ↑15 May 2020, 09:40 It is not a TdM of course, but the Catelin Geoffroy 1557 is quite interesting in that it was numbered at the top and bottom, at the bottom reversed - so the number at least could be read whether the card itself was upright or reversed

Thanks for these images Steve. Just one thing: since this deck far predates any known divinatory use of the cards, it is probably safe to say that the top & bottom numbering is for the sake of convenience of the players of card games (since these cards predate the double-headed cards), and that in this context, "upright" and "reversed" are a result of the perspective of the players - presumably around a table, and are of little consequence to the game being played.

_R_ wrote: ↑15 May 2020, 09:53 ...since this deck far predates any known divinatory use of the cards, it is probably safe to say that the top & bottom numbering is for the sake of convenience of the players of card games (since these cards predate the double-headed cards), and that in this context, "upright" and "reversed" are a result of the perspective of the players ...

Sure - but we are nonetheless able to treat and read any element of the game and gameplay as the basis for an allegorical, metaphorical, figurative, etc, reading.

KoyDeli wrote: ↑15 May 2020, 10:42 Sure - but we are nonetheless able to treat and read any element of the game and gameplay as the basis for an allegorical, metaphorical, figurative, etc, reading.

Yes, of course.

Reading Enrique Enriquez-style, drawing the client's attention to visual details rather than interpreting each card as if it was a receptacle for learned meanings, I think that reversals are not very useful, since you are looking for narratives and even to anthropomorphise objects. Reversed images do not work very well for this sort of story-telling technique.

What makes Enrique's readings so convincing is that the client does not have to take any interpretation by the reader on trust; he is seeing the same visual details that the reader is. The client's own consciousness makes its own symbolic connections because of the metaphorical nature of language itself. So, for example, if the reader talks about the difference between, say, a King's crown and a Page's simple cap, the real subject is not "hats". The client instinctively knows that what is being talked about is status or different degrees of grandeur. And hats don't look like hats if they are reversed.

But I think it's fine to use reversals when you are using RWS-type decks and are reading for yourself or delivering interpretations of the cards for the client's benefit without having him involved in the reading itself. In fact reversals can give you some unusual insights and add subtle shades of extra meaning. I personally like to do collaborative readings with clients regardless of what kind of deck I am using, so I always turn the cards upright to make it easier for them to see what is going on in the images.

The main trouble I have with reversals is how I would get the cards reversed in the first place. It always seems contrived for me. Do I force them to become reversed when shuffling? It always seemed... unnatural. The other issues have been discussed: the messiness (I don't like the look of reversed cards on the table); I use EDs (what happens to a revered card if it's in between "enemies"?--does it then become upright again?); what if I'm reading for someone? do I read the reversals for them or for me? what happens if all of the cards are reversed? are they all actually upright? or if most of them are reversed? are most of them upright and then some of them reversed? After a while I just gave up. For me it eventually got easier to leave them all upright and to start just using EDs as a general practice. I got more out of a reading using visual clues, eye-rhymes, additives methods, intuitive approaches, etc. I chucked the whole reversals thing.

fire cat pickles wrote: ↑24 May 2020, 12:43 The main trouble I have with reversals is how I would get the cards reversed in the first place. It always seems contrived for me. Do I force them to become reversed when shuffling? It always seemed... unnatural. The other issues have been discussed: the messiness (I don't like the look of reversed cards on the table); I use EDs (what happens to a revered card if it's in between "enemies"?--does it then become upright again?); what if I'm reading for someone? do I read the reversals for them or for me? what happens if all of the cards are reversed? are they all actually upright? or if most of them are reversed? are most of them upright and then some of them reversed? After a while I just gave up. For me it eventually got easier to leave them all upright and to start just using EDs as a general practice. I got more out of a reading using visual clues, eye-rhymes, additives methods, eye-rhymes, intuitive approaches, etc. I chucked the whole reversals thing.

I probably shouldn't say this, but this is one of my favorite posts ever and I can't say exactly why. It's just a certain kind of thinking that I really relate to.

I am innocent of nothing but speaking my mind... It does get me in trouble sometimes. At other times it serves me well.

fire cat pickles wrote: ↑24 May 2020, 12:43 The main trouble I have with reversals is how I would get the cards reversed in the first place. It always seems contrived for me. Do I force them to become reversed when shuffling? It always seemed... unnatural.

Depending on the cards we draw, we feel different emotions. Reverse or straight cards also trigger different emotions. Aren't our emotions important for interpreting cards ?

Jean

I try to remain as emotionally detached and objective as possible when reading. It doesn't always work out that way, but it's what I strive for.

It's not that I don't read reversed meanings, however, I do--I use elemental dignities. I just don't reverse the cards, for reasons I mention in the rest of the post you quoted--just too confusing and convoluted for me. Kudos to those who can and do , though.

So, we have very different methodologies with the tarot! Personally, I am not detached emotionally, on the contrary, I use my emotions a lot (I feel, I perceive, the tarot is a source of inspiration which solicits my subjectivity which is directed by the structure of cards), and I'm not trying to be objective.

What is very interesting with the inverted cards is that they can sometimes generate strong emotional reactions and reveal more clearly things in our "preconscious" (Freudian notions: the unconscious, the preconscious and the conscious). With inverted cards, we can speak of nuances, but to assign negative meanings is often excessive.

Concerning emotions, our heart reacts in different ways when we submit things to it (which our thought cannot elucidate). This is my experience: my heart sometimes knows more than my head !

Jean wrote: ↑26 May 2020, 16:45 What is very interesting with the inverted cards is that they can sometimes generate strong emotional reactions and reveal more clearly things in our "preconscious" (Freudian notions: the unconscious, the preconscious and the conscious). With inverted cards, we can speak of nuances, but to assign negative meanings is often excessive.

Regarding the guidebooks that come with decks, this is what I always find a little shady. When they give a meaning for the reversed card, 99% of the time it's just the opposite of the upright meaning. No nuance.

For one, I think that's unnecessary if in fact that's all reversed cards are, the opposite of upright ones. But I think if there is anything to reading reversals, it must be more than that. I wonder if it isn't these guidebooks that have sort of "dumbed-down" reading reversals.