Cult of Tarot Forum

In a recent thread, the book Meditations on the Tarot was recommended by stronglove. And how right it is to recommend such a wonderful book.

The full title of the book is "Meditations on the Tarot - a Journey into Christian Hermeticism". It was written by Anonymous and was published posthumously in 1980. But it's an open secret that it was written by Valentin Tomberg. It's a book using as a golden thread the 22 Major Arcana of the Tarot of Marseilles. And goes deeply (I mean DEEPLY into the 22 Arcana).

So I mentioned that I'd once written a little paper on the difference between Hermeticism and Christian Hermeticism and said I'd post it if anyone was interested. Devin asked me to post it. Now that is a very daunting challenge there. Devin is a very knowledgeable person, very clever too and he's also a much nicer person than I am. So I'm sort of posting this with great humility. Sort of as an offering.

Here's what I wrote. I edited it slightly. It's already written in the form of a post because I posted it once on another forum when there was a discussion about the Meditations on the Tarot. I remind you that I'm not a scholar nor do I have Devin's wisdom.


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I was wondering about the origin of Christian Hermeticism and also the differences between it and plain Hermeticism. For reading the Meditations of the Tarot, I think it's nice to have some idea of the differences and similarities and such.

A lot of the stuff I’ll be writing in this post is from wiki or other websites. I’m not going to put all the quotes in italics or anything. Would make it unwieldly. So this is a post full of plagiarisms. I'm no scholar, so I did the best I could.

Hermeticists believe in a prisca theologia, the doctrine that a single, true theology exists, that it exists in all religions, and that it was given by God to man in antiquity. In order to demonstrate the truth of the prisca theologia doctrine, Christians appropriated the Hermetic teachings for their own purposes.

Hermeticism, also called Hermetism, is a religious, philosophical, and esoteric tradition based primarily upon writings attributed to Hermes Trismegistus ("thrice-greatest Hermes"). These writings have greatly influenced the Western esoteric tradition and were considered to be of great importance during both the Renaissanceand the Reformation.

I think it’s really important to remember the influence of these writings when it comes to the Tarot, particular the TdM due to its history and origins. It must be steeped in such considerations. I did a lot of reading last night about how widespread and deep the influence went. It went much much further than I had thought. It was ubiquitious in those circles of alchemists and “magicians.” One must keep this in mind when playing with the cards of the TdM.

Now, many writers, including Lactantius, Cyprian of Carthage, Augustine of Hippo, Marsilio Ficino, Giovanni Pico della Mirandola, Giordano Bruno, Tommaso Campanella, Sir Thomas Browne, and Ralph Waldo Emerson, considered Hermes Trismegistus to be a wise pagan prophet who foresaw the coming of Christianity.

So that’s where the whole merging or evolution or whatever it is originated. Well, that’s what I’m understanding here at least. Hermes T. maybe foresaw the coming of Christianity. I’m trying to get a picture in my mind that looks and sounds logical. It could of course have an earlier origin, but in the little research I made, didn’t find a mention of this.

Also what is interesting I think is this : Much of the importance of Hermeticism arises from its connection with the development of science during the time from 1300 to 1600 AD. The prominence that it gave to the idea of influencing or controlling nature led many scientists to look to magic and its allied arts (e.g., alchemy, astrology) which, it was thought, could put nature to the test by means of experiments. Consequently, it was the practical aspects of Hermetic writings that attracted the attention of scientists.

There’s always been a huge conflict between Science and Religion, particularly when it comes to the Catholic Church. It’s been going on for hundreds of years – poor old Galileo and although there have been some signs of reconciliation on both sides, there’s still a huge wall about 10 million feet high (at least) separating them. But the blame is not only on the side of the Church – the scientists have their share too. I’m not going to try and calculate the percentages – I leave that up to LA JUSTICE VIII of the Tarot but I think the scientists will also be severely chastised. (Not Galileo!! He was cool.)

I worked once in a scientific NGO and I saw a tiny bit behind the scenes this battle between religion and science. It was very enlightening. (- lol – a personal anectode but nothing compared to the big scene that I had a glimpse of : I remember my boss storming out of my office one morning and yelling at me that he’d had enough of my anticlericalism. I’d refused to do a job he’d given me to do because I didn’t approve of it due to scientific considerations. Long story. He ended up by giving it to someone else. The NGO had some links with the Catholic Church.)

Must have been hard in those days though to stand up to the power of the Church and the fear and suspicion it cast during its inquisitions and its close-mindedness and bigotry. My boss was small fry compared to them.

So let’s continue with wiki.

In late Antiquity, Hermeticism emerged in parallel with early Christianity, Gnosticism, Neoplatonism, the Chaldaean Oracles, and late Orphic and Pythagorean literature.

The texts now known as the Corpus Hermeticum are dated by modern translators and most scholars as beginning of 2nd century or earlier. These texts dwell upon the oneness and goodness of God, urge purification of the soul, and expand on the relationship between mind and spirit. Their predominant literary form is the dialogue: Hermes Trismegistus instructs a perplexed disciple upon various teachings of the hidden wisdom.

Am not going to go into the Corpus Hermeticum here. Not in this post anyway. It would end up being a book not a post.

They believed in the “three parts of the wisdom of the whole universe”, ALCHEMY, ASTROLOGY AND THEURGY (the operation of the gods). This is why Hermes Trismegistus was called the Three Times Great, because he had knowledge of these three parts of wisdom.

Hermes Trismegistus also plays a prominent role in Islam and is mentioned in the Qur’an. Mention, in the Book, Idris, that he was truthful, a prophet. We took him up to a high place. According to ancient Arab genealogists, the Prophet Muhammad is a direct descendant of Hermes Trismegistus. Idrīs (إدريس‎) is an ancient prophet and patriarch mentioned in the Qur'an, whom Muslims believe was the second prophet after Adam. Islamic tradition has unanimously identified Idris with the biblical Enoch, although many Muslim scholars of the classical and medieval periods also held that Idris and Hermes Trismegistus were the same person.

Apart from loads of websites speaking about and always praising Tomberg’s book, there’s not a HUGE amount of information on Christian Hermeticism. (His book seems to have received more or less universal acclaim – apart from the usual bigots who are still hanging around since the Inquisition). I’m sort of almost wondering here if it wasn’t his book that made this term “popular”.

Here is what one description of the Meditations on the Tarot says and I think it pretty much sums up what Christian Hermeticism is.

Hermeticism embraces the art of becoming, the art of transformation of human life and consciousness. “Christian Hermeticists listen to the beating of the heart of the spiritual life of humanity. They cannot do otherwise than live as guardians of the life and communal soul of religion, science and art” (Meditations on the Tarot: A Journey Into Christian Hermeticism, Letter one).

The term Hermeticism refers to the spiritual tradition inaugurated by the ancient Egyptian initiate Hermes Trismegistus, credited with writing the Emerald Table. The Emerald Table gives a concise summary of the ancient world view of the agent or catalyst of growth and evolution. A summary of the medieval world view of the agent of growth and evolution is portrayed in the Major Arcana of the Tarot, which developed into an entire school of spiritual exercises. As a next manifestation in this lineage, Christian Hermeticism represents a third step in the evolutionary spiral of the Hermetic tradition. Written in the latter part of the 20th century, Meditations on the Tarot is the fruit of an anonymous author’s meditations and spiritual experiences arising through a unique fusion of Christianity and the Hermetic tradition.

Methinks is must be lovely to “live as guardians of the life and communal soul of religion, science and art”. I mean, that’s a nice role to play.

It seems there are some Catholic Hermeticists. But there’s a difference between Catholic Hermeticism and Christian Hermeticism. The Catholic one is all about the vows of chastity and poverty and such, and communion and the Eucharist and Baptism etc. So this as far as I can see seems to be a separate kind of Hermeticism specifically for Catholics or at least interpreted through their prisms. (They don’t call it Catholic Hermeticism though, they also call it Christian Hermeticism.)

But I’ll end with what I could have started out with. But that would have taken the fun out of my own research. In Letter VI, Tomberg gives his explanation of Christian Hermeticism :

Christian Hermeticism is not a religion apart, nor a church apart, nor even a science apart, which would compete with religion, with the Church, or with science. It is the connecting link (hyphen) between mysticism, gnosis and magic, expressed through symbolism — symbolism being the means of expression of the dimensions of DEPTH and HEIGHT (and therefore of enstasy and ecstasy), of all that is universal (which corresponds to the dimension of BREADTH), and of all that is traditional (corresponding to the dimension of LENGTH). Being Christian, Hermeticism accepts the cross of the universality, the tradition, the depth and the height of Christianity, in the sense of the apostle Paul when he said:

That you, being rooted and grounded in love, may have power to comprehend with all the saints WHAT IS THE BREADTH AND LENGTH AND HEIGHT AND DEPTH, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God. (Ephesians iii, 18-19)

This is the complete formula of initiation.

(Enstasy ??? One learns a new word every day : The experiences, or abolition of experience, arising as a consequence of those meditational, etc., techniques which withdraw the practitioner from the world, and even from awareness of the self.)

Amazing post Diana. Thank you for sharing it.

This is such a rich area, one I've always had trouble wrapping my head around. I'm so glad you brought up the connection to the alchemists. I'm starting to get their connection to the tarot and to the church.

In fact, there are so many things in here that I am making connections to.

But let me see if I understand, it sounds like Christian Hermeticism was an attempt by the church to synthesise esoteric teachings with their own as a way of bringing more people into the church? (or keep them from leaving)

Didn't they do something similar upon the re-discovery of the writing of the ancient greeks? I recall learning once that during the crusades Muslim scholars rescued many great tomes from being destroyed by the church. The church was trying to prevent people from reading the greeks. they were afraid their philosophies were in conflict with church teachings. When the books became available again, in fact many people did turn away from the church finding the greeks more appealing. They then got (if I remember right) Thomas Aquinas to see if he could write something that would show that the church and the greeks were actually in perfect agreement. I always found this amusing. It sounded like a writing assignment you might get in school. Take any 2 disparate things and "compare and contrast" or draw thematic parallels. You can give any good student any 2 things and they'll be able to do that. Thomas Aquinas had no trouble.

But it sounds to me like that's what they did also with the writings of Hermes Trismegistus. Tried to find a way to somehow convince everyone that the church was the best of both worlds?

Am I completely off-base here?

Joan Marie, I'll research all this further after your post which brings more questions that require answers !

But just as a starter, I don't think the Catholic Church would have approved at all of Hermeticism. I doubt they do today either. Because Hermeticism teaches that one can have a direct connection with God, without having to go through priests, or the Pope, or doing confession or having baptism. No need for in-betweens nor a church nor trappings.

So I think that it's more a case of the Hermeticists trying to fit the Christ message to the Hermetic beliefs. Rather than the other way round. I, to take an example, who am a huge fan of the Christ teachings, but remain completely outside of any doctrine or dogma or church, feel very comfortable with Hermeticism.

The Catholic Hermeticism that I spoke about seems to be very fringe and may even be considered a bit heretical. I'll try and look into this. But as I said, there's really very little information on Christian Hermeticism online. Surprisingly little. Most of it just refers to Tomberg's book. Which made me wonder, as I mentioned in my post, if he didn't sort of invent the term??

Okay. I think I must have conflated Catholic and Christian.
And that is an interesting idea that the Hermetics were trying to fit their beliefs to Christianity and not the other way around.

Joan Marie, Tomberg wrote his book almost as a declaration of allegiance to the Catholic Church. He wanted sort of to reassure them that in spite of his Hermeticism, that he could still be trusted and relied upon.

Previously, he had been a very strong proponent of Rudolf Steiner's anthroposophy. He converted to Catholicism much later in life. I'll make a post about him and his biography. Most of the websites speak only partially of his background and it needs some time to review them and collect the relevant information to make a reasonable picture. Wiki describes him as an "Estonian-Russian Christian mystic, polyglot scholar and hermetic magician." But the wiki page on him is really not very good. It gives a very very partial picture.

The first edition of his book had an afterword by Urs van Balthazar. A Swiss theologian and Catholic priest who was very influential in the Catholic church in the 20th century. It has always puzzled people how he came to give this afterword. I would think this must have created quite some controversy with the Church elders. There's also a photo somewhere of Pope John Paul the 2nd at his desk and on it, one can see a copy of Meditations on the Tarot.

But it's certainly not endorsed officially and I would think unofficially neither.

Diana wrote: ↑26 Feb 2020, 14:56 There's also a photo somewhere of Pope John Paul the 2nd at his deck and on it, one can see a copy of Meditations on the Tarot.

Given the context, I just want to confirm that you made a typo and that you meant "desk" and not "deck."

Diana wrote: ↑26 Feb 2020, 14:19 Joan Marie, I'll research all this further after your post which brings more questions that require answers !

But just as a starter, I don't think the Catholic Church would have approved at all of Hermeticism. I doubt they do today either. Because Hermeticism teaches that one can have a direct connection with God, without having to go through priests, or the Pope, or doing confession or having baptism. No need for in-betweens nor a church nor trappings.

So I think that it's more a case of the Hermeticists trying to fit the Christ message to the Hermetic beliefs. Rather than the other way round. I, to take an example, who am a huge fan of the Christ teachings, but remain completely outside of any doctrine or dogma or church, feel very comfortable with Hermeticism.

The Catholic Hermeticism that I spoke about seems to be very fringe and may even be considered a bit heretical. I'll try and look into this. But as I said, there's really very little information on Christian Hermeticism online. Surprisingly little. Most of it just refers to Tomberg's book. Which made me wonder, as I mentioned in my post, if he didn't sort of invent the term??

Hi Diana,

Now before I offer some nuanced input I need to make a full disclosure: I am a (former) Roman Catholic who received his master's degree in theology from a papally approved university - thus a very orthodox and conservative institution. Secondly, part of my being "former" is my large disagreement with much of the theology I had to learn/master in order to receive "approval" of the Catholic hierarchy to teach. But that's another "kettle of fish" LOL. Suffice it to say that in all that conservative, highly orthodox source material - I can honestly say that no where did I ever see explicitly, nor implicitly, a defined statement that one can not have a direct connection with god, and must go through priests, pope, or sacraments. In fact a very famous excommunication of a very popular U.S. priest occurred precisely because he was teaching that "outside of the Church there is no salvation." In all my studies, I found support for the opposite. In fact much of the Roman church's mystical tradition relies precisely on direct connection with god, without the intermediaries of a priest, etc.

Plus as you referenced, it is true that Pope John Paul II had a copy of this book prominently on his desk within hand's reach. Tomberg as well was thoroughly Catholic.

Of course, I am a heretic. LOL

respectfully,
Belenus

Oh my. How marvellous that you've stepped in then -Belenus. Thank you so much.

I'll need to figure this out... (I believe you of course with your background) but I've thought all my life - literally all my life - the opposite of what you say. And I've never ever heard the contrary, even when I've spoken about this to Catholics.

Do the flock KNOW this ? Are they taught that they don't need last rites for instance to get into heaven but that they can go direct ?

What you say on a theological basis, okay. I get it and am pleased to learn something new.

But then why all the need for a priest to baptise, or for a priest to marry two people, or a priest to give communion ? If you can have direct contact with God as you say the Catholic theologists say, then why all this rigmarole ? People dying without last rites, doesn't this put into jeopardy their chances of going to heaven ?

I'm very confused here, Belenus. Please help me.

By the way, my first answer to Joan Marie further up doesn't make sense. There's an error in it and a contradiction with something that I wrote in the introductory post (I didn't write that part - it's probably from wiki or another reputable site. I only used reputable sites). It contradicts something. I'll have to correct it but I can't do it in that post, it's too late as it's been responded to and all. Sort of part of history. So I'll make a post tomorrow. Joan Marie was partially right actually and I was the one who was confused.

Diana wrote: ↑26 Feb 2020, 21:07 Oh my. How marvellous that you've stepped in then -Belenus. Thank you so much.

I'll need to figure this out... (I believe you of course with your background) but I've thought all my life - literally all my life - the opposite of what you say. And I've never ever heard the contrary, even when I've spoken about this to Catholics.

Do the flock KNOW this ? Are they taught that they don't need last rites for instance to get into heaven but that they can go direct ?

What you say on a theological basis, okay. I get it and am pleased to learn something new.

But then why all the need for a priest to baptise, or for a priest to marry two people, or a priest to give communion ? If you can have direct contact with God as you say the Catholic theologists say, then why all this rigmarole ? People dying without last rites, didn't this put into jeapordy their chances of going to hell ?

I'm very confused here, Belenus. Please help me.

Gladly Diana,

I have to admit that there are a lot of Catholics who are bound by gross misinformation, old wives tales (excuse please the gender-biased language) and hear-say than authentic teaching. I have encountered this in my travels, more so in rural Europe, and in this country among the blue collar and the poor - especially immigrants. Sadly there are A LOT of seriously uneducated priests too - who came out of very pietistic, conservative seminaries who taught more fear than love. Their teachers were often uneducated superstitious priests too.

Here are some facts. You do not need the "last rites" to go to heaven. In fact the church changed that sacramental ritual from "Last Rites" to the "Anointing of the Sick." Its primary purpose is healing and support. No one, except the traditional catholic who was last taught their religion in grade school, calls it "Last Rites" or "Extreme Unction." The only exception is if a person is in "mortal sin." But even then we were taught that no one, not even the church, can restrict the limits of god's mercy and love.

You do not need a priest to baptize, any fellow christian can do it, and that's official church teaching. (My very Irish Catholic uncle did it to 2 of his nephews in the kitchen sink and he was definitely not a priest.) Marriage does need a priest or deacon except to witness the vows as an official representative of the church just like in common law you need a judge to witness a ciivil marriage. Church teaching is that the 2 persons create the union, not the priest nor the church. (However the vows do need to have some key elements in harmony with the teaching about marriage, e.g., "until death do us part.")

Any catholic, approved by the church can give holy communion. The church, at least in this country, has tens of thousands of "lay ministers of the eucharist" who give communion at masses, other ceremonies, to the sick in their homes and hospitals, etc. None of them are priests.

The "rigamarol" or rituals are simply necessary to make an invisible reality visible, a thoroughly human "necessity." As human beings we need the experience of taste, touch, hearing, smell, sight to deepen (or even validate) our experiences - especially when they are of a non-corporeal nature. Rituals do that - you feel the "love of god" when a person lays comforting hands on you when you're sick, hears words that speak of god's healing love, smells the sweet beautiful scent and the warm touch of the richly scented floral oil gently rubbed on your forehead and hands during the "Anointing of the Sick." Sacraments just make sensual affirmation of spiritual experiences.

Now apply that to our world, yours and mine: why do we light candles and sing songs at birthdays, toast with wine glasses, exchange rings when we commit our love to another, give flowers to a sick or grieving person or new mom, etc., etc.? Even tarot is exactly the same - those cards are tangible, concrete physical "symbols" of a non-physical experience. Otherwise we would never need cards, or any other physical object to do a reading, e.g., tea leaves, clouds, dice, etc. (Please note that I am NOT one of those people who believe that tarot cards are somehow alive and conscious. For me personally, they are only paper and ink. The power is in the reader and querent who "read" the meaning in these simply physical objects.) Rituals and physical objects ground, deepen, and validate our experiences.

I could go on and on. Does this help?

I look forward to more questions - and I admire and deeply respect your curiosity and open-mindedness!

all my best to you,
Belenus

Thanks ever so much Belenus. It's nice that you can clear up any Catholic matters for us on these boards. I've never been a forum where we have such a qualified specialist like you. You're going to come in very handy - lol !!

I look forward to getting back to this thread very soon and to give you an adequate response with most certainly a couple of questions. But at present it's nearing midnight and it's time for some rest.

If you find any other errors anywhere, like in my introductory post, please do point them out and correct them! (But ignore what I said in a post above, my response to Joan Marie's question. It has a serious flaw that I need to correct.)

You took a lot of care and time to write that. Thank you again.

My experience of catholicism is not studied, it just comes from being raised that way and educated in their schools.

I don't recall ever getting the idea that we required a go-between to connect to god, however, one thing that always struck me is that Catholics, generally speaking, do not actually read the Bible. It is read to them. Read and interpreted. I always sensed, though it was never spoken, that the lay-people were not to be trusted with that particular task. Most every Catholic has a Bible at home, on the shelf, and typically, with an un-cracked spine.

Regarding Baptism, I recall learning that you had to be Baptised to get into Heaven. They invented "Limbo" to cover un-baptised babies. It wasn't heaven, but it wasn't hell either. Like "Brunch." It's not breakfast, it's not lunch, but you get a good meal. I think they only recently did away with Limbo and decided that God would have mercy on their little souls. Duh.

They never did have a good explanation about what happens to everyone else.

Though it is technically correct that an actual Priest was not required, the ritual was. So maybe Diana is correct in that sense, that in a way, the church was a required go-between.

My father performed "Last Rites" on his father. He was the only one around to do it, there was no priest or other "authorised" person. He'd seen it done several times so he knew how. He told me, "I figured God wouldn't mind."
I think that shows the importance of being able to think for yourself, even if you are part of an organised religion.

When my dad was ill, a lay-person came around and performed the anointing of the sick. She was very sweet and the daughter of a friend of his. It meant a lot to him. As it got closer to the end, a real Priest came 'round and did it. That meant a lot too. My dad loved a good proper ritual.

Belenus wrote: ↑26 Feb 2020, 22:01 Now apply that to our world, yours and mine: why do we light candles and sing songs at birthdays, toast with wine glasses, exchange rings when we commit our love to another, give flowers to a sick or grieving person or new mom, etc., etc.? Even tarot is exactly the same - those cards are tangible, concrete physical "symbols" of a non-physical experience. Otherwise we would never need cards, or any other physical object to do a reading, e.g., tea leaves, clouds, dice, etc. (Please note that I am NOT one of those people who believe that tarot cards are somehow alive and conscious. For me personally, they are only paper and ink. The power is in the reader and querent who "read" the meaning in these simply physical objects.) Rituals and physical objects ground, deepen, and validate our experiences.

I really love that you brought this in Belenus. Life is full of ritual and ritual objects. So often they are so common, (birthday candles for example) we forget they are part of something bigger and more ancient and connected. There is power in that, in realising and understanding that.

Diana, I always did like you. But, seriously, I'm just a hack - retreading bits and pieces I've picked up over time. And I'm not even particularly well read: There are a few writers I love and read again and again and again. That's about it, unfortunately.

Anyway, what a wonderful piece. Interesting, too. It seems I have, until now, unfairly bracketed Hermeticism as being not much more than a subset of neo-platonism. Tsk. Tsk.

Still, superficially, it does smell a little of neo-platonism and gnosticism, doesn't it? If so, personally, I prefer metaphysical schematics that are a little less rationalist and without the emphasis on 'hidden truth.' Also, perhaps it also smacks a little of elitism and 'high spiritual calling.' This, as far a I know, would run counter to the traditional Christian idea of humanity's weakness and fallen state. So, for example, back in the day, one would take up a monastic life not because of ones perceived spiritual superiority but because of a felt inferiority.

Hermeticists believe in a prisca theologia, the doctrine that a single, true theology exists, that it exists in all religions, and that it was given to to man by God in antiquity.

Now I understand why many critics of the 'transcendent unity of religions' label it as occult.

Again, wonderful and informative reading, thank you! (I think the gods of knowledge would be pleased with your offering.)

Belenus wrote: ↑26 Feb 2020, 22:01 Rituals and physical objects ground, deepen, and validate our experiences.

Me, I need a dose of supernaturalism to keep up interest. Without levitating nuns, weeping statues, ecstatic visions and such, my attention starts to drift.

I feel I should point out that my above comments are based on the most superficial of understandings of Hermeticism and are not aimed at Tomberg's book, which I have tried and failed to read a number of times.

This might be an interesting take on Meditations:
http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features ... _apr07.asp

highly recommended as a source on everything tomberg

https://www.meditationsonthetarot.com/

devin wrote: ↑27 Feb 2020, 09:21 I feel I should point out that my above comments are based on the most superficial of understandings of Hermeticism and are not aimed at Tomberg's book, which I have tried and failed to read a number of times.

Even after reading it, I feel I have failed to understand it. It's comprehensible and incomprehensible at the same time. A bit like the Tarot. Who would dare to say that they understand the Arcana of the Tarot ? But I have the feeling that Tomberg got very close.

devin wrote: ↑27 Feb 2020, 08:24 Diana, I always did like you. But, seriously, I'm just a hack - retreading bits and pieces I've picked up over time. And I'm not even particularly well read: There are a few writers I love and read again and again and again. That's about it, unfortunately.

Well, then in that case let's agree at least that you're a far better hack than I am. You still win.

Anyway, what a wonderful piece. Interesting, too. It seems I have, until now, unfairly bracketed Hermeticism as being not much more than a subset of neo-platonism. Tsk. Tsk.


Still, superficially, it does smell a little of neo-platonism and gnosticism, doesn't it? If so, personally, I prefer metaphysical schematics that are a little less rationalist and without the emphasis on 'hidden truth.' Also, perhaps it also smacks a little of elitism and 'high spiritual calling.' This, as far a I know, would run counter to the traditional Christian idea of humanity's weakness and fallen state. So, for example, back in the day, one would take up a monastic life not because of ones perceived spiritual superiority but because of a felt inferiority.

That's exactly what I was talking about. You're cleverer than me. But still, I'm not certain that there's much gnosticism there. At least, it's not apparent to me in the Meditations on the Tarot. Which is my main reference as regards Christian Hermeticism and it seems that Tomberg more or less incarnates it.

Hermeticists believe in a prisca theologia, the doctrine that a single, true theology exists, that it exists in all religions, and that it was given to to man by God in antiquity.

Now I understand why many critics of the 'transcendent unity of religions' label it as occult.

Could you please elaborate by doing some clever hacking ?

Again, wonderful and informative reading, thank you! (I think the gods of knowledge would be pleased with your offering.)

Guard! There's a pagan in our midst. Please deal with it immediately!

Belenus wrote: ↑26 Feb 2020, 22:01 Rituals and physical objects ground, deepen, and validate our experiences.

Me, I need a dose of supernaturalism to keep up interest. Without levitating nuns, weeping statues, ecstatic visions and such, my attention starts to drift.

You should go to Lourdes. You can buy plastic levitating nuns and weeping statues with lights that flash on them and all. Very nice addition to the mantelpiece.

Joan Marie wrote: ↑27 Feb 2020, 06:54 My experience of catholicism is not studied, it just comes from being raised that way and educated in their schools.

I don't recall ever getting the idea that we required a go-between to connect to god, however, one thing that always struck me is that Catholics, generally speaking, do not actually read the Bible. It is read to them. Read and interpreted. I always sensed, though it was never spoken, that the lay-people were not to be trusted with that particular task. Most every Catholic has a Bible at home, on the shelf, and typically, with an un-cracked spine.

Regarding Baptism, I recall learning that you had to be Baptised to get into Heaven. They invented "Limbo" to cover un-baptised babies. It wasn't heaven, but it wasn't hell either. Like "Brunch." It's not breakfast, it's not lunch, but you get a good meal. I think they only recently did away with Limbo and decided that God would have mercy on their little souls. Duh.

I really love that you brought this in Belenus. Life is full of ritual and ritual objects. So often they are so common, (birthday candles for example) we forget they are part of something bigger and more ancient and connected. There is power in that, in realising and understanding that.

Thank you Joan Marie!!

So, granted I am speaking from the perspective of a university-educated person with a Master's degree in Theology and Scripture (Roman Catholic). On some, even many, levels that biases me. Also my geography colors deeply my experience. So please, please do not take anything that follows as a personal criticism, nor as a "you're wrong" polemic. I am simply offering my experience Joan Marie, and deeply honoring yours at the exact same time!

Limbo was a popular "answer" to what happens to unbaptized babies and good pagans. It was far more myth than actual defined teaching of the RC church. Now by defined teaching I mean something different from what the average Catholic or even parish priest might teach/believe. Defined teachings are official pronouncements under the teaching authority of the pope (some exceptions - but I do not want us to "get lost in the weeds here.") Limbo is no longer taught on any official level, though it still exists in the popular imaginations of many. In fact a recent official teaching document of the bishops explicitly denies the existence of limbo. Now the emphasis is on mystery of the mercy and love of God who wills and enables the salvation of all.

In the U.S. actual reading and study of the Bible was a strong emphasis in every Catholic diocese and parish I ever lived in. In fact I did not know of a single parish that did not have a bible study opportunities directed specifically at the Catholic lay person and the strong encouragement to read the bible themselves. In point of fact, I myself taught many, many bible classes to lay Catholics, that became so popular that crowds attending went from a few dozen to more than 500 attendees. Every person had a well-worn, thumbed through bible by the time they finished any of my classes. I also, for several years, was a tour company's favorite - because I was able to draw large participants to on-site bible and archeology studies in Israel, Jordan and Egypt. So at least, in my part of the world, Catholics took very seriously the official church admonition to read and study the bible themselves (of course with education.)

I must admit that my parents' generation definitely had the same experience you had - every Catholic had a huge, beautiful bible, unopened except to record births and deaths, relegated to the highest shelf in the bookcase. My Mom frequently told me that she was "taught" to never read the bible, because of the possibility of falsely interpreting it. I must admit also that my experience with many, many evangelical Protestant churches where personal reading and interpreting of the bible was encouraged were hot-beds of some the silliest and even deeply troubling misinterpretations of the bible. Why? Because it is not an easy book to read, without understanding its history, forms, languages, etc. It simply can not be taken literally, on face value.

So one and all, I am not sure how any of what I have written expands our knowledge and appreciation of tarot. And for that I beg your kind forgiveness.

Belenus

Belenus wrote: ↑28 Feb 2020, 02:42
Also my geography colors deeply my experience.

That was I was going to ask your opinion about. Because I'm wondering if "North American Catholicism" has a different taint or colourings than for instance, Italian or French Catholicism. My "knowledge" of Catholicism comes from mostly my contacts with French people, or people who were originally immigrants from "rural Europe" as you mentioned in your first post. And it seems there's a lot more superstition or old beliefs amongst these people.

Not wanting people to read the bible reminds me of that great film The Name of the Rose.

But still, I'm not certain that there's much gnosticism there. At least, it's not apparent to me in the Meditations on the Tarot. Which is my main reference as regards Christian Hermeticism and it seems that Tomberg more or less incarnates it.

Not Meditations specifically, Hermeticism in general and mainly on two points: First, a view of material reality as intrinsically less godly than the spiritual dimension. Second, a tendency toward spiritual elitism. This second point manifests in proclaiming an elect few who 'know' the secret.

Like I said, not Meditations specifically.

Then again, compare this from Meditations....

This is, therefore, how Hermeticism differs from religious mysticism and metaphysical philosophy. Hermeticism as the aspiration to the totality of things is neither a school, nor a sect, nor a community. It is the destiny of a certain class or group of souls. For there are souls who must necessarily aspire to the “totality of things”, and who are impelled by the river current of thought, which never stops, flowing always forward and always further on, without cease… There is no stopping for these souls; they cannot, without renouncing their own lives, leave this river of thought, which pours without cease—equally during youth, mature age and old age—without halting, from one darkness needing to be illuminated to another darkness needing to be penetrated. Such was, is, and will be my destiny. And in addressing these Letters to the Unknown Friend, I address myself to he who shares this destiny with me.

With this from Sayings of the Desert Fathers....

Some people once came to a hermit in the Thebaid to ask him to cure a demoniac whom they brought with them. After the hermit had been asked to do this for some time, he said to the demon, ‘Go out of God’s creature.’ The demon answered, ‘I will, but first let me ask you a question; tell me, who are the goats and who are the sheep?’ The hermit said, ‘The goats are people like myself; who the sheep are, God alone knows.’ The demon shouted aloud at the words, crying, ‘Look here, I am going out because of your humility,’ and he went out at that moment.

Could you please elaborate

Yeah, perennialists and capital T traditionalists, who claim all religions as having an underlying unity, or, more specifically, as having a single philosophy underpinning them, are often criticized for being nothing more than a bunch of Occultists foisting their views onto every religion they come across. Maybe there's truth in this. That perennialism is a Hermetic doctrine probably adds fuel to the fire. Personally, I'm very sympathetic to a loose kind of perennialism.

Thanks again for the piece!

Can I just add that my mother had a very, very bad experience going to a Catholic girls school as a Protestant. The school was run by Irish nuns who sounded beyond vindictive and mean spirited. Not all of them, but most. This kind of thing colors people's views.

devin wrote: ↑28 Feb 2020, 07:50 Can I just add that my mother had a very, very bad experience going to a Catholic girls school as a Protestant. The school was run by Irish nuns who sounded beyond vindictive and mean spirited. Not all of them, but most. This kind of thing colors people's views.

Irish nuns have a very bad reputation. Brrrrr.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene ... in_Ireland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abuse_sca ... s_of_Mercy

There's something seriously wrong in the Catholic church. Along with all the sexual abuse, one wonders why people still hang around.

I'm really enjoying this thread. I am a practicing Catholic, but a deeply conflicted one, and a lot of what you all are saying really speaks to me. I don't have much to add to the discussion, but this is a good jumping off point for me to explore hermeticism further and see how it jives with my beliefs.

So thank you for this wonderful discussion!

devin wrote: ↑28 Feb 2020, 07:46
Yeah, perennialists and capital T traditionalists, who claim all religions as having an underlying unity, or, more specifically, as having a single philosophy underpinning them, are often criticized for being nothing more than a bunch of Occultists foisting their views onto every religion they come across. Maybe there's truth in this. That perennialism is a Hermetic doctrine probably adds fuel to the fire. Personally, I'm very sympathetic to a loose kind of perennialism.

What is a "loose" kind of perennialism ? Isn't there either perennialism or there isn't ?

musetta wrote: ↑28 Feb 2020, 14:48 I'm really enjoying this thread. I am a practicing Catholic, but a deeply conflicted one, and a lot of what you all are saying really speaks to me. I don't have much to add to the discussion, but this is a good jumping off point for me to explore hermeticism further and see how it jives with my beliefs.

So thank you for this wonderful discussion!

And thank you for joining! Well if you're a practicing Catholic, then I'm sure you'll have a wonderful time with Tomberg's book if you get hold of a copy. Reading it online is okay, but somehow when one reads the book, it comes alive. There's nothing like a book.