Cult of Tarot Forum

Tarot de Marseille Keywords

Hi Guys

Quick question ...

What are your favourite keywords for the majors and Pips.

Not necessarily the most historically correct but the ones that ring true the most when reading the TdM.


Majors

0. Le Mat

I. Le Bateleur

II. La Papesse

III. L'Impératrice

IIII. L'Empereur

V. Le Pape

VI. L'Amoureux

VII. Le Chariot

VIII. La Justice

VIIII. L'Ermite

X. La Roue de Fortune

XI. La Force

XII. Le Pendu

XIII. (La Mort)

XIIII. Tempérance

XV. Le Diable

XVI. La Maison Dieu

XVII. L'Étoile

XVIII. La Lune

XVIIII. Le Soleil

XX. Le Jugement

XXI. Le Monde


The Pips

The ones

The twos

The threes

The fours

The fives

The six's

The eights

The nines

The tens





The Courts
Do you look at the courts as a whole or individually such as…

As a whole

Valets
Cavaliers
Reynes
Roys

Batons
Coupes
Depees
Deniers
or
Individually

Batons

Valet de Batons

Cavalier de Batons

Reyne de Batons

Roy de Batons

Coupes

Valet de Coupes

Cavalier de Coupes

Reyne de Coupes

Roy de Coupes

Depees

Valet de Depees

Cavalier de Depees

Reyne de Depees

Roy de Depees

Deniers

Valet de Deniers

Cavalier de Deniers

Reyne de Deniers

Roy de Deniers

Excellent idea Aeon Horus. I don't have a list of keywords, so I'll need to think about this. I do have reversed titles however for all the cards because reading the "reversed" meanings of the minors particularly are not always so easy so I took some time to explore them once over several days. Maybe I should just take them and find a suitable antonym.

My reversed titles for all 78 cards can be found in my personal CoT blog. viewtopic.php?f=221&t=1996

I sometimes do readings for myself with this "reversed TdM" I created. It works splendidly. Very harsh though. If one is looking for comfort and soft reassuring words, it's not suitable. One should be prepared to be hit very hard on the head. And take it standing up.

Post edited to change the word "keywords" to "titles". It was misleading what I said. Misuse of the term.

AeonHorus wrote: ↑21 Feb 2020, 07:23
What are your favourite keywords for the majors and Pips.

Not necessarily the most historically correct but the ones that ring true the most when reading the TdM.

Aeon Horus, I did start working on this little project yesterday. But stopped very quickly. I realised I don't like working with keywords. I find them too reductive and restrictive. They make me feel confined and in a system that compresses and almost stifles.

I've never used a list of keywords or anything in my Tarot practice. And usually when I read books, I skip that part. I did read the Button Soup l'il white book though. It's not very keywordy.

So although I said I'd join in, I'm withdrawing.

I've never used a list of keywords or anything in my Tarot practice.

astonishing!
Now I am certainly intregued as to exactly how you extract meaning from a pip card and the courts without a preordained meaning behind them.
I mean the Major arcana speak for themselves with their keywords already attached.

They make me feel confined and in a system that compresses and almost stifles.

Have you never heard of synonyms and metonymy?
Keywords are merely a starting point to be expanded up on and on and on and so on!

So the point of my thread was to (as I am learning the Marseille system) assimilate a baseline from which to further expand upon.
Intuition plays a massive part as do other aspects of how you wish the cards to work, whether that be RW, Thoth or Tdm, they all work in pretty much the same way.
I just wanted to see if others have come up with the same baseline as myself over the years, and seeing as you expressed a deep love for the Tdm in one of your other posts I was very much interested in your input as truly value your opinion.
I saw your reversals and to me they are pretty much way off the mark as they are all negative which is highly improbable seeing as there is a healthy mix of good, natural and bad cards in ANY of the tarot systems.
As for your statement in your reversals spread regarding my court cards negative aspects.

What are they? Are they TdM meanings? If they're not they have no place in this thread! No RWS or other here. If they're TdM bring then on.

This I really don't understand seeing as the RW system is based on the TdM System, as is the Thoth. They are all the same
The basic, fundamental meanings stem from the same point!
The only difference is that Arthur Waite put images to his vision of what the TdM spoke to him. He closed the circle so to speak, but then years later that opened up once more with the advent of intuitive readings and other artists giving their impressions of his fundamental vision, some with more of a twist than others!
Yes he hid some magickal secrets from the "unwashed masses" because he was a tad egocentric but then Crowley let it all slip and that is where they (The Golden Dawn) fell out with him and he left.

Anyway these are just my humble thoughts that I have acquired over the past 28 years of reading

AeonHorus wrote: ↑23 Feb 2020, 01:58
Now I am certainly intregued as to exactly how you extract meaning from a pip card and the courts without a preordained meaning behind them.
I mean the Major arcana speak for themselves with their keywords already attached.

I was going to cover this in the Pips study that I initiated. I still want to talk about it though here on CoT and will most definitely be starting up a thread. I'm probably just going to skip all the theory that I had started out doing and leave that for my book.

And the Minor Arcana also speak for themselves by the way. Due to all the information provided on them. That's what people don't get. I understand they don't get it. I'm not denigrating them. For years I refused to even touch the minors. When I was reading professionally, I only used the Majors as I felt too shaky with the Minors.

Have you never heard of synonyms and metonymy?
Keywords are merely a starting point to be expanded up on and on and on and so on!

So the point of my thread was to (as I am learning the Marseille system) assimilate a baseline from which to further expand upon.
Intuition plays a massive part as do other aspects of how you wish the cards to work, whether that be RW, Thoth or Tdm, they all work in pretty much the same way.
I just wanted to see if others have come up with the same baseline as myself over the years, and seeing as you expressed a deep love for the Tdm in one of your other posts I was very much interested in your input as truly value your opinion.
I saw your reversals and to me they are pretty much way off the mark as they are all negative which is highly improbable seeing as there is a healthy mix of good, natural and bad cards in ANY of the tarot systems.
As for your statement in your reversals spread regarding my court cards negative aspects.

My Reversals are not off the mark. Because I didn't give any keywords! I gave new TITLES to the cards. Some are of course allegorical or a bit obscure because it's very difficult to encapsulate all the myriad of meanings that a card can carry with just one word. Some more obscure ones are "Utopia" for the Fool, and "Security" for the Devil.

And the reason that I gave negative TITLES only to the cards was because I was focusing in this study of mine ONLY on all the possible reversed meanings. Because the upright ones I was more certain of. I put this in my personal blog because it was a personal study, I was struggling sometimes with some of the reversed meanings of pips.

Personal blog doesn't mean no-one can comment. Otherwise I'd have kept my musings on a file in my computer just for my personal use.

So this "deck" was purely to deepen my understanding of the reversed meanings of the TdM and in particular the minors.

This I really don't understand seeing as the RW system is based on the TdM System, as is the Thoth. They are all the same
The basic, fundamental meanings stem from the same point!
The only difference is that Arthur Waite put images to his vision of what the TdM spoke to him. He closed the circle so to speak, but then years later that opened up once more with the advent of intuitive readings and other artists giving their impressions of his fundamental vision, some with more of a twist than others!
Yes he hid some magickal secrets from the "unwashed masses" because he was a tad egocentric but then Crowley let it all slip and that is where they (The Golden Dawn) fell out with him and he left.

Anyway these are just my humble thoughts that I have acquired over the past 28 years of reading

No, the TdM and the RWS and the Thoth do not "work in more or less the same way". Where do you see 10 Swords stabbing someone in the back in the TdM for example ? They are different traditions. The Death card in the RWS is so dissimilar to the TdM Arcanum XIII that I don't see how they can even be compared. I could go on for a dozen pages detailing all the differences between the cards. There was a brief discussion once in Plato's Cave that such a comparison could be interesting and useful. But it hasn't yet been done. It's a huge task to take on and it's a long term thing. It would take a lot of posts and threads to cover all this and would require quite a lot of input from different people who are well versed in either of the traditions or both.

And yes, there were a lot of fall outs in the Golden Dawn crowd. This happens in all such organisations. The theosophists had fall outs too. The same thing happens in political groups - there are always people who fall away to form splinter groups, as they're not satisfied with what's going on in the group they joined. I left a collective that I was co-founder of once and that was very dear to my heart, as it was taking a path that I didn't feel comfortable with anymore. And those that left with me, well we formed a different collective. The Sea Shepherd was formed by people disgruntled with Greenpeace for example.


Oh, and saying that the RWS/Thoth/and TdM are the same basically, is like saying that the Torah, the Gospels and the Holy Qur'an are the same book. If they were, there would be no need for three sacred scriptures. Sure, all three are very closely related. But they're not the same. They have a common thread that's for sure - but there are nuances. Some very striking in fact.

The idea of applying keywords to the TdM feels like an oxymoron to me.

AeonHorus wrote: ↑23 Feb 2020, 01:58 I mean the Major arcana speak for themselves with their keywords already attached.

I've never thought of the card titles being keywords. The titles are descriptors, not a compressed meaning.

Keywords are merely a starting point to be expanded up on and on and on and so on!

And herein lies the issue. The use of keywords as you've described suggests a chain, a progression of ideas linked together. For me, such linear thinking is far too restrictive. Tarot reading is ideally a three-dimensional process - actually it also revels in the fourth dimension. To restrict reading to linear interpretations deprives both the reader and querent of valuable insights.

So the point of my thread was to (as I am learning the Marseille system) assimilate a baseline from which to further expand upon.

Its often said - and was certainly my experience - that it's much harder to progress from Golden Dawn to TdM. There's something about RWS, and certainly Thoth, that lend themselves to a systematic approach. TdM demands a different way of 'seeing' the cards. There are no baselines or systems, only your own discoveries in the realms of literature, mythology, science and philosophy... and your own life experience and wisdom.

Intuition plays a massive part as do other aspects of how you wish the cards to work, whether that be RW, Thoth or Tdm, they all work in pretty much the same way.

It's rare for me to say categorically no. RWS, Thoth and TdM are very different. Of course you can, and I've seen many do, superimpose say, RWS onto TdM, but I've never understood why you would want to do that. Starting out with TdM gives you a chance to immerse yourself in previously unexplored aspects of divination, not to mention a host of other fascinating areas.

This I really don't understand seeing as the RW system is based on the TdM System, as is the Thoth. They are all the same
The basic, fundamental meanings stem from the same point!
The only difference is that Arthur Waite put images to his vision of what the TdM spoke to him. He closed the circle so to speak, but then years later that opened up once more with the advent of intuitive readings and other artists giving their impressions of his fundamental vision, some with more of a twist than others!
Yes he hid some magickal secrets from the "unwashed masses" because he was a tad egocentric but then Crowley let it all slip and that is where they (The Golden Dawn) fell out with him and he left.

Hopefully there are others who can put a more nuanced explanation than me, but I think the history is less straightforward than this.

Aoife wrote: ↑23 Feb 2020, 13:56 The idea of applying keywords to the TdM feels like an oxymoron to me.

AeonHorus wrote: ↑23 Feb 2020, 01:58 I mean the Major arcana speak for themselves with their keywords already attached.

I've never thought of the card titles being keywords. The titles are descriptors, not a compressed meaning.

Keywords are merely a starting point to be expanded up on and on and on and so on!

And herein lies the issue. The use of keywords as you've described suggests a chain, a progression of ideas linked together. For me, such linear thinking is far too restrictive. Tarot reading is ideally a three-dimensional process - actually it also revels in the fourth dimension. To restrict reading to linear interpretations deprives both the reader and querent of valuable insights.

So the point of my thread was to (as I am learning the Marseille system) assimilate a baseline from which to further expand upon.

Its often said - and was certainly my experience - that it's much harder to progress from Golden Dawn to TdM. There's something about RWS, and certainly Thoth, that lend themselves to a systematic approach. TdM demands a different way of 'seeing' the cards. There are no baselines or systems, only your own discoveries in the realms of literature, mythology, science and philosophy... and your own life experience and wisdom.

Intuition plays a massive part as do other aspects of how you wish the cards to work, whether that be RW, Thoth or Tdm, they all work in pretty much the same way.

It's rare for me to say categorically no. RWS, Thoth and TdM are very different. Of course you can, and I've seen many do, superimpose say, RWS onto TdM, but I've never understood why you would want to do that. Starting out with TdM gives you a chance to immerse yourself in previously unexplored aspects of divination, not to mention a host of other fascinating areas.

This I really don't understand seeing as the RW system is based on the TdM System, as is the Thoth. They are all the same
The basic, fundamental meanings stem from the same point!
The only difference is that Arthur Waite put images to his vision of what the TdM spoke to him. He closed the circle so to speak, but then years later that opened up once more with the advent of intuitive readings and other artists giving their impressions of his fundamental vision, some with more of a twist than others!
Yes he hid some magickal secrets from the "unwashed masses" because he was a tad egocentric but then Crowley let it all slip and that is where they (The Golden Dawn) fell out with him and he left.

Hopefully there are others who can put a more nuanced explanation than me, but I think the history is less straightforward than this.

This is quite brilliant and most eloquently put Aoife. This is not necessarily what I wanted to see come about after I posted but it is certainly refreshing to hear, I do so wish to hear more. TdM certainly enchants me yo delve in deeper, to peel back the layers and see where it all lies.
So please. don't stop there and don't feel that you may offend me lol because you won't. I am nowt but a child in the realms of the TdM, an eternal child full of studious curiosity

AeonHorus wrote: ↑23 Feb 2020, 01:58
Now I am certainly intregued as to exactly how you extract meaning from a pip card and the courts without a preordained meaning behind them.

AeonHorus, I made a fictitious reading in the Reading the Pips study : viewtopic.php?f=132&t=2433&p=15832#p15832

This will give you an example of one way of reading the pips.

I'm hoping someone who uses EE's method will pop in there and see how they would have read these cards using his method. And if our conclusions would be similar. Also any other method that someone may use.

Diana wrote: ↑23 Feb 2020, 19:44

AeonHorus wrote: ↑23 Feb 2020, 01:58
Now I am certainly intregued as to exactly how you extract meaning from a pip card and the courts without a preordained meaning behind them.

AeonHorus, I made a fictitious reading in the Reading the Pips study : viewtopic.php?f=132&t=2433&p=15832#p15832

This will give you an example of one way of reading the pips.

I'm hoping someone who uses EE's method will pop in there and see how they would have read these cards using his method. And if our conclusions would be similar. Also any other method that someone may use.

Thanks for the link I will look at it in a bit when I have a few moments.

Yeah I know about Enrique and his intuitive storytelling techniques.
It's interesting, but it is just one way of looking at it, not very traditional may I add, but it is exactly the same as an intuitive would read RW or Thoth for that matter. Nothing special
He is however a genius for looking at pip cards and coming up with this simplistic style.
Me however I much prefer the traditional way (with meaning attached to the cards) using numerology, astrology and other set systems.

You know what though Diana?
The really beautiful thing about tarot!
Is that no way is the wrong way and if your way works for you then it is the right way for you!

As the Levellers so rightly put it in their song in 1990

There's only one way, and that's your own..

This was something that I was taught many years ago by my teacher / mentor / girlfriend / witch whatever you may wish to call her lol.
But she knew her stuff when it came to all things magick, herbs, the Druids path, Hermeticism, divination (not only tarot) she knew some shit I can tell you.
These words

"The really beautiful thing about tarot!
Is that no way is the wrong way and if your way works for you then it is the right way for you!

are her words.

You see magick is a path and the tarot is a path finder...

AeonHorus wrote: ↑23 Feb 2020, 23:49
Is that no way is the wrong way and if your way works for you then it is the right way for you!

As long as it works.

AeonHorus wrote: ↑23 Feb 2020, 23:49
This was something that I was taught many years ago by my teacher / mentor / girlfriend / witch whatever you may wish to call her lol.
But she knew her stuff when it came to all things magick, herbs, the Druids path, Hermeticism, divination (not only tarot) she knew some shit I can tell you.
These words

"The really beautiful thing about tarot!
Is that no way is the wrong way and if your way works for you then it is the right way for you!

are her words.

You see magick is a path and the tarot is a path finder...

ain’t that the truth.....
thanks for these words, i think they are much needed on this forum, because it sometimes seems as if there is only one ‘true’ ‘valid’ way to use and read tarot, and people tend to get a bit judgmental when somebody advocates a different/ ‘deviant’ approach.
i think your attempt to attach keywords to the TdM is really interesting, i never considered doing that before but i am intrigued. at the moment i am (again) deeply immersed in valentin tomberg’s ‘meditations on the tarot’, a book i have been reading on and off for 20 years and it still gives me new perspectives on the major arcana. what is so fascinating about this book is that tomberg writes at least 30 pages about each arcanum, but he starts off with a keyword, or a key sentence, and uses that as an entry point, a portal, a base for his meditations. so in a way that is similar to your description of how you use the keywords. tomberg’s keywords are fascinating, for example, he uses the keyword ‘gravitation’ for the hanged man and then meditates on what that word means in terms of christian hermeticism.
if you are interested, i can create a list of the 22 keywords and key sentences he uses in his book.

as to the pips, i really get how keywords may serve as a starting point/springboard for further interpretation. for the TdM i would suggest consulting caitlin matthews’ ‘untold tarot’, she gives really interesting keywords and associations for the pips and associates the TdM court cards with both people and virtues, a fascinating book. ever since i read the keyword ‘bed’ for the four of swords and the four of cups i cannot see those cards any other way (4 of wands is a vehicle and 4 of deniers a bank)

as to ‘deviant’ ways for reading the TdM: my way (the way the TdM works for me) is to shuffle the deck, draw a couple of cards (5 or more) and ask the cards to tell me a story. works magic, every time.

stronglove wrote: ↑24 Feb 2020, 11:23 . tomberg’s keywords are fascinating, for example, he uses the keyword ‘gravitation’ for the hanged man and then meditates on what that word means in terms of christian hermeticism.

I love what Tomberg says about the Magician : The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound thereof, but can not tell from where it came, and where it goes: so is everyone that is born of the Spirit. (John 3:8)

stronglove wrote: ↑24 Feb 2020, 11:23


as to the pips, i really get how keywords may serve as a starting point/springboard for further interpretation. for the TdM i would suggest consulting caitlin matthews’ ‘untold tarot’, she gives really interesting keywords and associations for the pips and associates the TdM court cards with both people and virtues, a fascinating book. ever since i read the keyword ‘bed’ for the four of swords and the four of cups i cannot see those cards any other way (4 of wands is a vehicle and 4 of deniers a bank)

I assume Caitlin Matthews gives her reasoning behind these keywords such as "bed" for the four of swords and four of cups ? And 4 of Batons a vehicle and 4 of Deniers as a bank. If so, what is the reasoning? I don't see it. I've tried - but have come up with a blank. 4 of Deniers as a bank is the only one that I could make some sense out of.

But she obviously had some reasons for this. I'd really like to hear them.

Also, does she translate "Batons" as "Wands" in her book ?

Edited to add:

thanks for these words, i think they are much needed on this forum, because it sometimes seems as if there is only one ‘true’ ‘valid’ way to use and read tarot, and people tend to get a bit judgmental when somebody advocates a different/ ‘deviant’ approach.

There is always going to be some dissonance between the "French" way of reading the TdM, and the Anglo-Saxon one which is naturally influenced by the RWS. The former has no traces of it. That is what is apparent also on this forum. It's a recurring theme on tarot discussion forums. On a French tarot forum for instance, you won't find this. Everyone is more or less on the same page.

I don't think this dissonance will ever disappear. And it may well be that we are talking at cross-purposes but do not realise it, so naturally misunderstandings arise from two different "definitions" or understandings of what the Tarot is. It's almost sometimes as if we've got a different definition or concept of what the Tarot is. Perhaps we think we are speaking of the same Tarot but we are actually speaking of two separate and distinct ones. When I say Tarot, I'm not meaning tarot decks. I'm talking about the really deeper meaning of the Tarot. Sort of the metaphysical one. Tarot as in TAROT.

RWS and TdM are really so far apart. They're more distant cousins than cousins.They are definitely not brothers. Or maybe more they're of the same species but no more than that. Sort of the difference between a gorilla and a marmoset. Or a camel and a lama. The French word for marmoset is delightful : it's "ouistiti". I love ouistitis.

I think the RWS is more of an esoteric nature. And the TdM is more of a mystical nature.

stronglove wrote: ↑24 Feb 2020, 11:23

AeonHorus wrote: ↑23 Feb 2020, 23:49
This was something that I was taught many years ago by my teacher / mentor / girlfriend / witch whatever you may wish to call her lol.
But she knew her stuff when it came to all things magick, herbs, the Druids path, Hermeticism, divination (not only tarot) she knew some shit I can tell you.
These words

"The really beautiful thing about tarot!
Is that no way is the wrong way and if your way works for you then it is the right way for you!

are her words.

You see magick is a path and the tarot is a path finder...

ain’t that the truth.....
thanks for these words, i think they are much needed on this forum, because it sometimes seems as if there is only one ‘true’ ‘valid’ way to use and read tarot, and people tend to get a bit judgmental when somebody advocates a different/ ‘deviant’ approach.
i think your attempt to attach keywords to the TdM is really interesting, i never considered doing that before but i am intrigued. at the moment i am (again) deeply immersed in valentin tomberg’s ‘meditations on the tarot’, a book i have been reading on and off for 20 years and it still gives me new perspectives on the major arcana. what is so fascinating about this book is that tomberg writes at least 30 pages about each arcanum, but he starts off with a keyword, or a key sentence, and uses that as an entry point, a portal, a base for his meditations. so in a way that is similar to your description of how you use the keywords. tomberg’s keywords are fascinating, for example, he uses the keyword ‘gravitation’ for the hanged man and then meditates on what that word means in terms of christian hermeticism.
if you are interested, i can create a list of the 22 keywords and key sentences he uses in his book.

as to the pips, i really get how keywords may serve as a starting point/springboard for further interpretation. for the TdM i would suggest consulting caitlin matthews’ ‘untold tarot’, she gives really interesting keywords and associations for the pips and associates the TdM court cards with both people and virtues, a fascinating book. ever since i read the keyword ‘bed’ for the four of swords and the four of cups i cannot see those cards any other way (4 of wands is a vehicle and 4 of deniers a bank)

as to ‘deviant’ ways for reading the TdM: my way (the way the TdM works for me) is to shuffle the deck, draw a couple of cards (5 or more) and ask the cards to tell me a story. works magic, every time.

Ha! Yes indeed.
This above is truly an outstanding story and I appreciate your understanding of how my methodology works.

but he starts off with a keyword, or a key sentence, and uses that as an entry point, a portal, a base for his meditations.

Now this is interesting and yes I would very much be interested in you posting up his keywords. That is very kind of you to do so.
I have been reading this way for many years with the RW deck which incidentally I got the idea through the Thoth deck because there are keywords on each and every pip card he created. That is the starting point and you can expand from there.

This also....

associates the TdM court cards with both people and virtues

is uncanny!
As I read the courts as personalities and energies and their negative counterparts, such as the Insightful Champion - the Angry Rival...

I need to read these books !!!

Whilst we are on the subject

My keyword for the "Hanged Man" is Patience

Diana wrote: ↑24 Feb 2020, 13:25
I assume Caitlin Matthews gives her reasoning behind these keywords such as "bed" for the four of swords and four of cups ? And 4 of Batons a vehicle and 4 of Deniers as a bank. If so, what is the reasoning? I don't see it. I've tried - but have come up with a blank. 4 of Deniers as a bank is the only one that I could make some sense out of.

Aaah. I just figured out for myself why 4 of Swords would be "bed". It must be due to this :

And I've figured out her 4 of Coins is also based on the RWS image. Even though I could make some sense of this interpretation, it seems now to be more of a coincidence.

I'll keep the expression of my feelings to myself. Like I won't put adjectives or descriptions on them. But this pisses me off no end and I'm even going to go and take a long walk by the lake and talk to a duck about this. Jesus bloody Christ. (going off muttering - why don't the heathen just throw the TdM into a bonfire and replace it by their other god - the one that looks like a golden calf).

I don't think it's an accurate representation of the book to say that Matthews is using those as keywords. I see them more as example interpretations that you might get depending on the context using the basic number-suit symbolism she lays out. She actually has two different pip methods that she shows: the suit+number combo and the "pips as trumps" method where you use the Majors similar number (Emperor and Temperance in the case of four, Papess and Hanged Man for 2, etc) as the basis for pip interpretation. I generally find her example of that method less convincing and that is where you find the bed thing that was being talked about.

BUT...regarding the bed example, it isn't bed, per se, but, specifically, bed of sickness and/or confinement in a small space. It's derived from the oppressive aspect of the emperor plus the health aspect of Temperance plus the number symbolism of four as a physical space. Similarly, a physical space for money is a bank. Again, where that word appears there are also about 20 other words as well. She's brainstorming manifestations of a core concept not saying this equals that.

But as I read and understand the book, these are definitely not keywords in the way that I would use that term.

Re: RWS, I think people forget that the GD people started out as TdM readers and these decks are definitely rooted in the same symbolism. The graphic aspect tends to limit their interpretative range but, in most cases, the core RWS meanings are inherent in the TdM. I don't think it's at all fair or accurate to suggest that she's simply finding ways to justify reading TdM as RWS.

AeonHorus wrote: ↑24 Feb 2020, 16:46
I need to read these books !!!

well, here’s where you can find one of them....

http://www.tarothermeneutics.com/tarotl ... -Tarot.pdf

AeonHorus wrote: ↑24 Feb 2020, 16:46
Now this is interesting and yes I would very much be interested in you posting up his keywords. That is very kind of you to do so.

will try to make some time for this next weekend, it will be so much fun to do it!
in the mean time you might want to look for papus’ tarot of the bohemians, which is a historical deck that uses keywords

https://sacred-texts.com/tarot/tob/index.htm

papus’ keyword for the hanged man is: sacrifice
etteilla also uses keywords, for both upright and reversed meanings, but his major arcana are very different from the TdM, for example: he has no hanged man but his nr 12 arcanum is prudence.

http://www.slechten.be/etteilla/meanings/grimaud.pdf

Oh thank you so much for the links.
I have downloaded the M-O-T-T book.
Hahaha looks pretty heavy going
Should keep me quiet for a while hahaa

The Tarot of the Bohemians too, thank you again.
I am familiar with sacred texts website but I've never looked at these particular pages. Interesting.

I look forward to your take on the keywords.
Now as I just typed that I nearly wrote keys instead of keywords.
Many learned people and tarot scholars call the Majors Arcanum the "Keys" hmmmm interesting, did I just stumble upon something there?

AeonHorus wrote: ↑25 Feb 2020, 00:55 Oh thank you so much for the links.
I have downloaded the M-O-T-T book.
Hahaha looks pretty heavy going
Should keep me quiet for a while hahaa

The Tarot of the Bohemians too, thank you again.
I am familiar with sacred texts website but I've never looked at these particular pages. Interesting.

I look forward to your take on the keywords.
Now as I just typed that I nearly wrote keys instead of keywords.
Many learned people and tarot scholars call the Majors Arcanum the "Keys" hmmmm interesting, did I just stumble upon something there?

MOTT takes about a hundred year to read and to grasp. I've spent sometimes more than an hour just on one paragraph. Enjoy. Tomberg's book is also a declaration of faith to the Catholic church to which he converted later in life. It was a way to show them that his allegiance was strong in spite of his Christian Hermeticism. It's a most fascinating book and astonished the world when it was came out. It was published posthumously. He didn't want his name to be known as the author. It's still considered as one of the books "attributed" to Tomberg, because it's still published under Anonymous. But everyone knows it's him who wrote it.

Here are some useful links for the study of the Meditations on the Tarot (MOT).

Two pdf versions of the book itself :

http://theosnet.net/dzyan/miscpubs/Medi ... -Tarot.pdf
http://tarothermeneutics.com/tarotliter ... -Tarot.pdf (there is one corrupted page in this one, don’t know if there are more).

The wiki page on the MOT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meditations_on_the_Tarot

Jean Michel David’s review on Aeclectic : http://www.aeclectic.net/tarot/books/me ... -on-tarot/

Valentin Tomberg’s biography and career (the wiki page is not so good): http://tarothermeneutics.com/tarotliter ... berg1.html

Once I wrote a short paper on the difference between Hermeticism and Christian Hermeticism. If you're interested, I can post it somewhere.


Keys - that's a good word for the Major Arcana. I sometimes call them our Spiritual Teachers.

Diana wrote: ↑24 Feb 2020, 13:25 I assume Caitlin Matthews gives her reasoning behind these keywords such as "bed" for the four of swords and four of cups ? And 4 of Batons a vehicle and 4 of Deniers as a bank. If so, what is the reasoning? I don't see it. I've tried - but have come up with a blank. 4 of Deniers as a bank is the only one that I could make some sense out of.

I can't speak for Matthews, but it is my understanding that such meanings have their root in playing card divination. In this case, the meanings are derived from the square nature of the cards' imagery. I hope someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

Diana wrote: ↑25 Feb 2020, 13:06 Once I wrote a short paper on the difference between Hermeticism and Christian Hermeticism. If you're interested, I can post it somewhere.

Please do.

AeonHorus wrote: ↑25 Feb 2020, 00:55 Oh thank you so much for the links.
I have downloaded the M-O-T-T book.
Hahaha looks pretty heavy going
Should keep me quiet for a while hahaa

The Tarot of the Bohemians too, thank you again.
I am familiar with sacred texts website but I've never looked at these particular pages. Interesting.

I look forward to your take on the keywords.
Now as I just typed that I nearly wrote keys instead of keywords.
Many learned people and tarot scholars call the Majors Arcanum the "Keys" hmmmm interesting, did I just stumble upon something there?

what i find interesting is that, usually, in books that mention keywords, like lwb’s or general tarot studybooks, there are a lot of words/ associations/ interpretations of the possible meanings of a card and then the keyword functions as a kind of ‘conclusion’, a kind of compressed version of what has been written, as if it represents what the creator or writer considers the ‘essence’ of the card. from what i understand about your methodology you are more interested in ‘keywords’ as a starting point for your exploration of the card. am i getting that right? that would be like you are using them as ‘keys’ to open the door to a deeper meaning...... (maybe that is what the word ‘key’ means?) anyway, i find this really fascinating and i keep thinking about it, especially because this is how i read the meditations on the tarot, keywords and key sentences as a starting point for further exploration.

btw what is so special about tomberg, and the reason i keep reading this book, is that he has not only studied different western esoteric and philosophical ‘schools’ but is also incredibly well informed about a lot of eastern philosophies and religions, so even though he is very determinedly christian and catholic, which i sometimes find a bit hard to swallow/ follow, he is at the same time very respectful of other world views, which i really appreciate. he has always been a bit of a renegade, which makes me like him even more. he used to be part of rudolph steiners anthroposophical school but got kicked out by the dutch chairman in 1940 because his ideas were too ‘controversial’, and the catholic church didn’t particularly like him either.

so if you have downloaded the book, there maybe is no need for me anymore to post the keywords??? (trying to wriggle out from under my promise )

stronglove wrote: ↑25 Feb 2020, 18:10
what i find interesting is that, usually, in books that mention keywords, like lwb’s or general tarot studybooks, there are a lot of words/ associations/ interpretations of the possible meanings of a card and then the keyword functions as a kind of ‘conclusion’, a kind of compressed version of what has been written, as if it represents what the creator or writer considers the ‘essence’ of the card. from what i understand about your methodology you are more interested in ‘keywords’ as a starting point for your exploration of the card. am i getting that right? that would be like you are using them as ‘keys’ to open the door to a deeper meaning...... (maybe that is what the word ‘key’ means?) anyway, i find this really fascinating and i keep thinking about it, especially because this is how i read the meditations on the tarot, keywords and key sentences as a starting point for further exploration.

Yes this is exactly my point in question, the books usually go the wrong way bout it giving long and wordy explanations then closing off with a handful of keywords. This is the better way to sell a book as you (the author) are creating a sizzle with your poetic storyline, which is also good and helps significantly in the line of intuitive reading as it does get the juices flowing to be able to look more closely at a said image.
Yes I look at a singular keyword and draw deeper meaning from that. I have a set of core words that I use to expand upon and dependant upon whom I am reading for and to what question or position in spread will show where is the best place to start!

so if you have downloaded the book, there maybe is no need for me anymore to post the keywords??? (trying to wriggle out from under my promise )

Oh there is a need
Firstly a promise is a promise and you should keep to your word

Secondly I am really interested in others takes on this.

Aeon