Cult of Tarot Forum

Hi!

I’m totally new to TdM. I fell in love with it just recently by looking at a YT-video from Tarot Map. I bought the Noblet version from Flornoy but was wondering how you know what is the upright and reversed sides of the pips? Especially the deniers and batons...

Any Info or good links?

Thank you very much in advance!!!

Laiste, the simplest answer is that you can't tell the difference. Why? Because the traditional decks such as the TdM were never meant to be read with reversals. They did not create the cards with a design that easily indicated a reversed state - simply because it was never a part of the tradition at that point, and thus there was no need to make it so. Thus, each individual card contains the full range of meanings, from high to low, positive to negative.

The only thing you can do, if you must read reversals, is when your deck is first unsealed - all the cards are upright. Go through the Epees, Batons, and Deniers and make some type of a tiny mark in one corner of each card, e.g., a little black dot in the lower right corner. Then when you deal you can locate the dot and know if that card is reversed or not. But that is a lot of work.

But again, these decks were never meant to be read with reversals. Reversed cards is a much later addition to the tarot tradition - almost 300 years after the first tarot decks were produced. The vast majority of TdM readers in today's world still do not use reversals.

all the best to you!
Belenus

It's correct that it's not especially common to use reversal with TdM, especially when using the minors/full deck. Those who do often will only reverse the clearly reversible cards. If you want to reverse all the cards, you might want to get a Conver Ben-Dov from US Games because it has a little copyright indication in the top left corner. I wouldn't recommend marking a Flornoy deck. That's defacing a work of art, imo. You do you though.

Charlie,

You are so right! I would never, ever deface a Flornoy deck. Thanks for catching that. My bad!

Great suggestion on using a ben-Dov deck. In his book, ben-Dov actually has a wonderful method for folks who want to continue using reversals with a TdM.

Cheers!
Belenus

Thank you so much for shining your light on this!

It’s not that i want to know this in regard of using reversals, because i don’t use reversals. Just wanted to know the original design, how they were original created.
I see throughout history both direction have been used as upright so probably i just have to choose this for myself
Although there are tarotsheets found that for example show the 3 deniers with one underneath and 2 above it... I find this all very interesting because you look at things from a totally different angle.

Thank you so much for the help!

Historically, I think it begins with Eteilla, but I could be wrong.

Belenus wrote: ↑01 Dec 2019, 04:21 Charlie,

You are so right! I would never, ever deface a Flornoy deck. Thanks for catching that. My bad!

Great suggestion on using a ben-Dov deck. In his book, ben-Dov actually has a wonderful method for folks who want to continue using reversals with a TdM.

Cheers!
Belenus

Buy ben-Dov book, check.

I’m only just starting on my TDM journey, and I hadn’t known that about reversals, thank you.

Laiste wrote: ↑23 Nov 2019, 10:43 Hi!

I’m totally new to TdM. I fell in love with it just recently by looking at a YT-video from Tarot Map. I bought the Noblet version from Flornoy but was wondering how you know what is the upright and reversed sides of the pips? Especially the deniers and batons...

Any Info or good links?

Thank you very much in advance!!!

Wolf of Coins is a good channel too. Very similar to Tarot Maps.
Polish lady (ha not that that matters )

As for reversals, personally I only read reversals in the courts in whichever system I am using. It is in my belief that within the 78 cards there is enough negative energy to nicely balance out the positive and then there are the neutrally charged cards, that all come together to bring a perfect harmony within the dack.
However if you, like many other people like to read reversals then I can say that suit by suit some are easier than others.
Here are my observations:~
(I shall for the purpose of this exercise refer to the suits as Cups -Swords - Wands - Coins)


Cups - easy as the chalices are upside down lol
Swords - All odd numbers have an upright sword in the middle and even numbers have an upright flower in the middle. All except the 2 and the 4 swords, I take this to meaning that seeing as they are both even numbers and pretty stable then if reversed the meanings should remain the same.

now we hit upon the harder ones to differentiate

Wands - Both 2 & 3 have no discernible difference - 4 has a different flower at the top and bottom of card - 5 no discernible difference - 6 has a different flower at the top and bottom of card - 7 no discernible difference 8 - has a slightly different flower at the top and bottom of card 9 & 10 - no discernible difference


Coins - 2 is signature card so easy to tell with date at the top 3 has a triangular shape to it & 4 has three fleur-de-lys on the crest in the middle - 5 no discernible difference (although on my deck the flower at the bottom is flatter - 6 no discernible difference - 7 has a single coin above center in the middle - 8, 9 & 10 no discernible difference - although 10 on my deck has a slightly flatter flower at the bottom


Aces - All the aces except the coins are pretty obvious - Ace of Coins no discernible difference

So if you want to read the reversals maybe you can simply read the obvious ones as reversed and the others just assume they mean the same no matter which way around they fall into your spread. They are your cards, so do as you so wish Laiste, if it feels right to you then it is right!

As I said these are simply my observations on my Anima Antiqua deck, variations from deck to deck may well apply.

Hope it helps, I am pretty new to TdM myself lol

Aeon