TdM vs. WST

[Scanner]

Dear all,

I'm from Europe (Germany) - so sorry for my bad English.

I use Tarot since a few years and do readings with the Waite-Smith Deck. I invested so much time in finding out the relation between Tarot and Cabbala.

But now I realize that I can't longer use it, because I don't agree with the Christian esoteric belief system, which is the foundation of these cards. Although I always loved these small scences with its 20 century style.

I feel drawn to a more "traditional" form of cartomancy, since I wonder whether Tarot is really a system for self-knowledge and spiritual growing.

However, I'm starting to doubt that this was the real intention of people who used Tarot in ancient times (and I'm quite aware of the fact that originally it was used as a playing card game).

Can you recommend any books to learn more about the TdM?

[_R_]

Dear all,

I'm from Europe (Germany) - so sorry for my bad English.

I use Tarot since a few years and do readings with the Waite-Smith Deck. I invested so much time in finding out the relation between Tarot and Cabbala.

But now I realize that I can't longer use it, because I don't agree with the Christian esoteric belief system, which is the foundation of these cards. Although I always loved these small scences with its 20 century style.

I feel drawn to a more "traditional" form of cartomancy, since I wonder whether Tarot is really a system for self-knowledge and spiritual growing.

However, I'm starting to doubt that this was the real intention of people who used Tarot in ancient times (and I'm quite aware of the fact that originally it was used as a playing card game).

Can you recommend any books to learn more about the TdM?

Can you read French? If so, you are in luck since there are a great many books in that language that deal only with divination.
In English, not many at all as far as the Marseilles Tarot is concerned.
I'm afraid I don't know off hand about books in German, although I know that the Thoth system is well-represented in that language.

[Scanner]

Thank you, now I found accidentally The way of the Tarot by Jodorowsky.
Unfortunately I can't speak French, but this book has been published in German.

[Charlie Brown]

Thank you, now I found accidentally The way of the Tarot by Jodorowsky.
Unfortunately I can't speak French, but this book has been published in German.

That is a very interesting book, although it's highly idiosyncratic and individual. He adapts an almost Freudian approach to the tarot.

My personal opinion is that you won't need a book specifically about the TdM to address your concerns, at least once you have a basic fluency with the deck. I would think that any book about using the tarot for spirituality (that's what you want, yes?) would have insights that you can apply to TdM reading.

That being said, my experience is that the TdM is better suited to answering direct questions and more modern, illustrated decks lend themselves more easily to spiritual reflection. There are many decks other than the Waite-Smith, of course. I like the Victorian Romantic and the Tinker's Damn very much just to name two. I'm not necessarily recommending them, but am saying that the art in those two decks touches things of importance inside of me. Therefore they are effective tools for when I want to self-reflect. There are undoubtedly decks that would do the same for you. Of course, I do use the TdM for the majority of my readings.

[Diana]

That being said, my experience is that the TdM is better suited to answering direct questions and more modern, illustrated decks lend themselves more easily to spiritual reflection.

Ooh, my experience is the opposite. Which is one (amongst others) of the reasons I don't fancy the modern ones much. I find the Tarot of Marseilles allows for not being influenced by someone else's viewpoints and understanding of the world, and allows for deeper self-reflection without too many preconceived ideas.

Scanner, I'm still pondering your post. Will get back to you if I have anything of interest to say (at least, I hope it will be interesting.) You've raised an interesting discussion I think.

[Scanner]

Dear all,

Thank you for your answers.

@ Charlie Brown: No, that isn't what I meant. I want to use Tarot, because I'm not longer interested in spiritual growing, but in a kind of fortune telling. (Of course I believe in spiritual growing, but I wouldn't consider the Tarot as helpful to do that for me). It was an invention by modern/western Occultism, and I don't think that this was the original sense of playing cards, although I don't say that it is impossible. Arthur Waite wrote in one of his books, that the Waite Smith-Deck should (or may) not be used for fortune telling, but only pathworking and individuation. It was the point when I read that, I realized it makes no longer sense for me working with a Tarot deck, the creator of it made it with a quite different intention than I want to use it.

[Charlie Brown]

In that case, I think that Caitlin Matthews' Untold Tarot would be a good counterpoint to Jodorowsky.

We also have a TdM reading circle every month. This month's group is closed but there will be open sign-ups again at the start of November. I hope that you join us then.

[Diana]

But now I realize that I can't longer use it, because I don't agree with the Christian esoteric belief system, which is the foundation of these cards. Although I always loved these small scences with its 20 century style.

I feel drawn to a more "traditional" form of cartomancy, since I wonder whether Tarot is really a system for self-knowledge and spiritual growing.

However, I'm starting to doubt that this was the real intention of people who used Tarot in ancient times (and I'm quite aware of the fact that originally it was used as a playing card game).

Can you recommend any books to learn more about the TdM?

Scanner, I don't think the people who designed the first Tarot cards realised themselves what these cards, designed for the entertainment of the upper classes, would become. It seems that the Tarot developed into something which can be used for self-development, self-knowledge and spiritual growth. The Tarot morphed slowly from simple playing cards to something quite extraordinary. This happens sometimes when one creates an object or a thing or a notion - the potentialities are sometimes not even guessed at.

Now any deck of cards, whether Tarot or other, can be used for cartomancy. I'm wondering though, if you're interested only in cartomancy, whether you wouldn't prefer studying how to read playing cards ("ordinary" cartomancy") or a deck of cards like the Lenormand which has been tried and tested. There is also a deck called a Kipper which lots of people talk about. I don't know what it is exactly, but it seems very popular as well.

The Tarot of Marseilles can of course be used for simple cartomancy, but it seems a bit of a waste ! The TdM is the Emperor of all tarot though, and whatever you use it for, I reckon it can serve its purpose.

I don't have any books to recommend as I only know the French ones. Be careful if you buy a book that's not been recommended though because I've noticed that some books on the Tarot of Marseilles published recently sometimes have sections that seem to have been copied or plagiarised from books on the Rider Waite deck concerning the minors.