So since time immemorial (in Tarot time), people have been wondering who the Papesse represents. All sorts of theories. None make sense.
Isis ? Virgin Mary ? Papesse Jeanne ? Mary Magdalene ? A joke ? A need to put a female spiritual figure and they were lacking one so they just put some generic figure ?
See ? Doesn't make sense. We can ask ourselves this question to kingdom come, but unless the ghost of one of the card designers comes to visit and chat one day with one of us, the question mark will continue to dangle in front of us. Annoyingly so. It is annoying to not know.
Especially as la Papesse with her book must surely know loads of stuff.
And that is where I'm getting to : Has anyone ever asked HER who she is by doing a reading ?
Oh, I know that this won't give us any definitive answer, and that we'll still wait for that ancient ghost to visit us, but I think it could be quite fun to do. Sort of like a game. The Tarot was a game after all originally. Recently I was doing a translation into English for an exhibition on the Game and one paragraph was to define what a game is :
A game can be defined as a practice, the goal of which, following established rules, requires the player – who acts as the agent - to choose when and how to use the resources that he has at his disposal. Moreover, just as with fiction, a game institutes both a specific space and temporality, quite apart from everyday reality. A game may therefore be described as a « practical artificial device, created not as an activity, but as a means for action »
Anyone up to doing a reading and ask this enigma who she is ? We could do our own individual readings and see what we all come up with. Would be interested to see the connections between the readings. And the non-connections.
(Papesse has been on my mind a LOT lately. I even chose her for collective Tarot deck because she's constantly buzzing around my head. I want to know who she represents.)
This forum is officially closed. It will however remain online and active in a limited form for the time being.
Why don't we ask the Papesse who she is ?
Why don't we ask the Papesse who she is ?
Rumi was asked “which music sound is haram?” Rumi replied, "The sound of tablespoons playing in the pots of the rich, which are heard by the ears of the poor and hungry." (haram means forbidden)
Re: Why don't we ask the Papesse who she is ?
Hey, cool idea. Here's my attempt:
https://cdn3.imggmi.com/uploads/2019/7/ ... 4-full.jpg
Hermit/Fool/Temperance/Pope/Empress Bottom Card: Popess
First, it's really nice to see the lady herself showing up in the draw. Otherwise, I would read the above as a very simple answer: The old foolishness of a female Pope. For me, this immediately brings to mind Pope Joan - a figure that, as things stand, is almost universally considered to be nothing more than a legend. In this context, the Fool does strike me as having an affinity with the journey a myth or legend takes as it meanders through time, picking up all sorts of bits and bobs, oblivious to the naysayers nipping at its heels. That being said, the presence of Temperance following the Fool, the Pope blessing the Empress, and the Hermit mirroring the Empress leads me to believe that the myth of Pope Joan, when stripped of its more outrageous elements, could have a historical basis.
And that's my take. What's yours?
EDIT: I just realised I didn't ask the question from the Popess's perspective....
https://cdn3.imggmi.com/uploads/2019/7/ ... 4-full.jpg
Hermit/Fool/Temperance/Pope/Empress Bottom Card: Popess
First, it's really nice to see the lady herself showing up in the draw. Otherwise, I would read the above as a very simple answer: The old foolishness of a female Pope. For me, this immediately brings to mind Pope Joan - a figure that, as things stand, is almost universally considered to be nothing more than a legend. In this context, the Fool does strike me as having an affinity with the journey a myth or legend takes as it meanders through time, picking up all sorts of bits and bobs, oblivious to the naysayers nipping at its heels. That being said, the presence of Temperance following the Fool, the Pope blessing the Empress, and the Hermit mirroring the Empress leads me to believe that the myth of Pope Joan, when stripped of its more outrageous elements, could have a historical basis.
And that's my take. What's yours?
EDIT: I just realised I didn't ask the question from the Popess's perspective....
Re: Why don't we ask the Papesse who she is ?
devin, I think you did a splendid interpretation of these cards.
However, this could also point to the Mary Magdalene theory.
The story that Mary Magdalene traveled to France was very prevalent in the Middle Ages. And is still alive today, particularly in the South of France. Legend says that she arrived with her daughter, whose father was Jesus. When I lived in the South of France many years ago, I heard this story a few times.
http://www.sacredmysterytours.com/mary- ... Bl0GQ.dpbs
There is an abbey in France (not in South of France) famous for claiming that it holds relics of Mary Magdelene. "It was under Abbot Geoffrey that the abbey at Vézelay was first associated with St. Mary Magdalene. A papal letter dated to 1050 AD shows that the name of the saint was part of the official title of the abbey by that time." http://www.sacred-destinations.com/fran ... lay-church
After all, Mary Magdalene must have gone SOMEWHERE after Jesus' death. She didn't just vanish from the earth. She was a disciple of Jesus and must surely have continued his ministry. Why not France ? And would she not have been revered by those who knew who she was?
Of course, she was usually depicted in those times as holding a chalice rather than a book. But sometimes she did have a book.
But so far, I agree with you that according to your reading, this is a stuff of legend... and does not all legend have some truth in it?
I will do my reading on this probably tomorrow.
However, this could also point to the Mary Magdalene theory.
The story that Mary Magdalene traveled to France was very prevalent in the Middle Ages. And is still alive today, particularly in the South of France. Legend says that she arrived with her daughter, whose father was Jesus. When I lived in the South of France many years ago, I heard this story a few times.
http://www.sacredmysterytours.com/mary- ... Bl0GQ.dpbs
There is an abbey in France (not in South of France) famous for claiming that it holds relics of Mary Magdelene. "It was under Abbot Geoffrey that the abbey at Vézelay was first associated with St. Mary Magdalene. A papal letter dated to 1050 AD shows that the name of the saint was part of the official title of the abbey by that time." http://www.sacred-destinations.com/fran ... lay-church
After all, Mary Magdalene must have gone SOMEWHERE after Jesus' death. She didn't just vanish from the earth. She was a disciple of Jesus and must surely have continued his ministry. Why not France ? And would she not have been revered by those who knew who she was?
Of course, she was usually depicted in those times as holding a chalice rather than a book. But sometimes she did have a book.
But so far, I agree with you that according to your reading, this is a stuff of legend... and does not all legend have some truth in it?
I will do my reading on this probably tomorrow.
Rumi was asked “which music sound is haram?” Rumi replied, "The sound of tablespoons playing in the pots of the rich, which are heard by the ears of the poor and hungry." (haram means forbidden)
Re: Why don't we ask the Papesse who she is ?
For this reading, I’m using the Conver TdM. And only the Major Arcana.
My question is, or rather a request as I felt a need for some decorum in front of this woman who holds perhaps the Book of Life in her hands: “Could you please give me some indication as to who you are?”
(Theatrics are not necessary when reading the Tarot, but they add an element of fun.)
I remove La Papesse from the deck before shuffling and place her in the top position. But I turn her face down. (Don’t know why exactly, kind of an impulse). She will be sort of like the title of this story but the title is still unknown.
XIII – (death)
XV – Devil
XIII – Justice
La Papesse is just above The Devil.
And now I’m really stumped.
So I’ll go fast here because if I think too much I’m going to get lost. When I get stumped with the cards, I have to cling to that first impression before it vanishes and gets lost in tiresome and often fruitless meanderings.
XIII (death). There’s a lot of violence in this card. Immediately comes to mind Maifreda and Guglielma. Quoting here an extract from Mary Greer’s great article on Maifreda:
“Maifreda (or Manfreda) Visconti da Pirovano was to be declared Pope in Milan on Easter 1300 in a new age of the Holy Spirit. Instead, Maifreda and others in the sect were, that year, burned at the stake, along with the disinterred body of Guglielma, who had inspired this new movement.
(……………..)
Maifreda believed the Holy Spirit had manifested on earth in the form of Guglielma (d. 1281), a middle-aged woman with a grown son who claimed to be a daughter of Premysl Otakar, King of Bohemia, and, who on arriving in Milan in 1260, donned a “simple brown habit” and lived the life of a saint. To the Guglielmites, her arrival fulfilled a prophecy of St. Joachim de Fiore that a new age of the Holy Spirit would begin in 1260, “heralding the inauguration of an ecclesia spiritualis in which grace, spiritual knowledge and contemplative gifts would be diffused to all.”
https://marykgreer.com/2009/11/07/papes ... -evidence/
From Wikipedia:
“Guglielma arrived in Milan around 1260 with her son. Apparently a widow, she adopted the life of a pinzochera — a religious woman living independently in her own home, much like the beguines of northern Europe. In Milan she soon attracted disciples from the elite classes of the city, as well as among the Umiliati, a lay urban religious movement that operated on the fringes of heresy. When she died, sometime between 1279 and 1282, her body was buried in the Cistercian monastery at Chiaravalle; the burial site soon became a shrine and a cult sprang up around her.
The Guglielmites were led by a sister of the Umiliati movement, Maifreda da Piovano, who was elected their pope and performed Mass over Guglielma's grave. Maifreda was the first cousin of Matteo Visconti, the Ghibelline (anti-papal party) ruler of Milan.
Their creed declared that Guglielma's resurrection would herald a new church led by women. For obvious reasons, this attracted the attention of the Inquisition. In 1300, thirty Guglielmites were charged with heresy. Guglielma herself was posthumously condemned on the basis of a confession almost certainly extracted by torture from Andrea Saramita, one of Guglielma's most fervent disciples during her lifetime.
Guglielma's bones were disinterred and burned, and three of her devotees, including Maifreda, were sent to the stake.”
XV The Devil (just below the Papesse whom I’ve now turned over).
Devil is laughing a bit now. There’s some heresy going on. He’s enjoying it.
VIII Justice
The women were maybe burned and scorned and tortured. But there is some Justice – they live on in spite of the violent reaction (death) to their movement.
There are two characters on either side of the Devil. Two scales in the hands of Justice.
So I would say from my reading that the Papesse is telling me that she is Maifrieda in flesh and Guglielma in spirit.
My question is, or rather a request as I felt a need for some decorum in front of this woman who holds perhaps the Book of Life in her hands: “Could you please give me some indication as to who you are?”
(Theatrics are not necessary when reading the Tarot, but they add an element of fun.)
I remove La Papesse from the deck before shuffling and place her in the top position. But I turn her face down. (Don’t know why exactly, kind of an impulse). She will be sort of like the title of this story but the title is still unknown.
XIII – (death)
XV – Devil
XIII – Justice
La Papesse is just above The Devil.
And now I’m really stumped.
So I’ll go fast here because if I think too much I’m going to get lost. When I get stumped with the cards, I have to cling to that first impression before it vanishes and gets lost in tiresome and often fruitless meanderings.
XIII (death). There’s a lot of violence in this card. Immediately comes to mind Maifreda and Guglielma. Quoting here an extract from Mary Greer’s great article on Maifreda:
“Maifreda (or Manfreda) Visconti da Pirovano was to be declared Pope in Milan on Easter 1300 in a new age of the Holy Spirit. Instead, Maifreda and others in the sect were, that year, burned at the stake, along with the disinterred body of Guglielma, who had inspired this new movement.
(……………..)
Maifreda believed the Holy Spirit had manifested on earth in the form of Guglielma (d. 1281), a middle-aged woman with a grown son who claimed to be a daughter of Premysl Otakar, King of Bohemia, and, who on arriving in Milan in 1260, donned a “simple brown habit” and lived the life of a saint. To the Guglielmites, her arrival fulfilled a prophecy of St. Joachim de Fiore that a new age of the Holy Spirit would begin in 1260, “heralding the inauguration of an ecclesia spiritualis in which grace, spiritual knowledge and contemplative gifts would be diffused to all.”
https://marykgreer.com/2009/11/07/papes ... -evidence/
From Wikipedia:
“Guglielma arrived in Milan around 1260 with her son. Apparently a widow, she adopted the life of a pinzochera — a religious woman living independently in her own home, much like the beguines of northern Europe. In Milan she soon attracted disciples from the elite classes of the city, as well as among the Umiliati, a lay urban religious movement that operated on the fringes of heresy. When she died, sometime between 1279 and 1282, her body was buried in the Cistercian monastery at Chiaravalle; the burial site soon became a shrine and a cult sprang up around her.
The Guglielmites were led by a sister of the Umiliati movement, Maifreda da Piovano, who was elected their pope and performed Mass over Guglielma's grave. Maifreda was the first cousin of Matteo Visconti, the Ghibelline (anti-papal party) ruler of Milan.
Their creed declared that Guglielma's resurrection would herald a new church led by women. For obvious reasons, this attracted the attention of the Inquisition. In 1300, thirty Guglielmites were charged with heresy. Guglielma herself was posthumously condemned on the basis of a confession almost certainly extracted by torture from Andrea Saramita, one of Guglielma's most fervent disciples during her lifetime.
Guglielma's bones were disinterred and burned, and three of her devotees, including Maifreda, were sent to the stake.”
XV The Devil (just below the Papesse whom I’ve now turned over).
Devil is laughing a bit now. There’s some heresy going on. He’s enjoying it.
VIII Justice
The women were maybe burned and scorned and tortured. But there is some Justice – they live on in spite of the violent reaction (death) to their movement.
There are two characters on either side of the Devil. Two scales in the hands of Justice.
So I would say from my reading that the Papesse is telling me that she is Maifrieda in flesh and Guglielma in spirit.
Rumi was asked “which music sound is haram?” Rumi replied, "The sound of tablespoons playing in the pots of the rich, which are heard by the ears of the poor and hungry." (haram means forbidden)
Re: Why don't we ask the Papesse who she is ?
Thank you. I was unaware of poor Maifreda's tale. Interesting. As for your cards: Yes, I'd agree with your interpretation, but perhaps taking a simpler approach and declaring them to state, "Death and justice to heretics." Of course, the Devil bumping up against Justice informs us that, in truth, this is no kind of Justice at all. Still, I think that both of our draws could, with a bit of squinting and imagination, apply equally to Joan and Maifreda.
That being said, I personally like the Joan associations as they functionally fit with my reading of the Popess as representing, among other things, secrecy.
What a fascinating exercise this is. I do wish someone else would jump in.
Thanks again,
Devin.
That being said, I personally like the Joan associations as they functionally fit with my reading of the Popess as representing, among other things, secrecy.
What a fascinating exercise this is. I do wish someone else would jump in.
Thanks again,
Devin.
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Charlie Brown
- Sage
- Posts: 1488
- Joined: 25 May 2018, 16:22
Re: Why don't we ask the Papesse who she is ?
Who is the Papess?
She transforms (death) the darkness (devil) into truth (justice).
Truth may be a little too pointed for justice, but the idea, broadly, of balancing out our inner darkness with wisdom, spirituality, and gnosis.
There's actually a Japanese term that I can't remember that I would prefer to gnosis. It translates into English as something like "heart learning."
She transforms (death) the darkness (devil) into truth (justice).
Truth may be a little too pointed for justice, but the idea, broadly, of balancing out our inner darkness with wisdom, spirituality, and gnosis.
There's actually a Japanese term that I can't remember that I would prefer to gnosis. It translates into English as something like "heart learning."
I believe in Crystal Light.
Re: Why don't we ask the Papesse who she is ?
Oh that's very smart "Death and justice to heretics".devin wrote: ↑22 Jul 2019, 08:01 Thank you. I was unaware of poor Maifreda's tale. Interesting. As for your cards: Yes, I'd agree with your interpretation, but perhaps taking a simpler approach and declaring them to state, "Death and justice to heretics." Of course, the Devil bumping up against Justice informs us that, in truth, this is no kind of Justice at all. Still, I think that both of our draws could, with a bit of squinting and imagination, apply equally to Joan and Maifreda.
That being said, I personally like the Joan associations as they functionally fit with my reading of the Popess as representing, among other things, secrecy.
What a fascinating exercise this is. I do wish someone else would jump in.
Thanks again,
Devin.
Oh, I also love your reading of her as Joan. It makes as quite as much sense as mine I think.
Indeed, this is a most interesting exercice. More so than I thought. I was wondering if it wasn't going to sort of deflate like a balloon. But we have done well I think !!
Rumi was asked “which music sound is haram?” Rumi replied, "The sound of tablespoons playing in the pots of the rich, which are heard by the ears of the poor and hungry." (haram means forbidden)
Re: Why don't we ask the Papesse who she is ?
Hmmm. I wish you'd copy that first sentence into the thread of Tarot Wisdoms that I started up the other day (it's not got many wisdoms in it, but doesn't seem to be complaining - I went to check on herCharlie Brown wrote: ↑23 Jul 2019, 01:10 Who is the Papess?
She transforms (death) the darkness (devil) into truth (justice).
Truth may be a little too pointed for justice, but the idea, broadly, of balancing out our inner darkness with wisdom, spirituality, and gnosis.
There's actually a Japanese term that I can't remember that I would prefer to gnosis. It translates into English as something like "heart learning."
). I swear that is the kind of wisdom that should go down in Tarot history.Sometimes one really understands the meaning of the expression "pearls of wisdom".
Thank you so much.
Rumi was asked “which music sound is haram?” Rumi replied, "The sound of tablespoons playing in the pots of the rich, which are heard by the ears of the poor and hungry." (haram means forbidden)
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chiscotheque
- Sage
- Posts: 488
- Joined: 18 May 2018, 13:49
Re: Why don't we ask the Papesse who she is ?
Truth is too pointed, yet apropos. Man cannot attain Truth, any more than he can Justice - these are the domain of God. Man cannot achieve these higher planes without God's help, represented by Gnosis, Wisdom, Grace, the Holy Spirit, etc. The Papess is the spirit of the Law, not the letter. She is mercy - unstrained, dropping as gentle rain from Heaven... (MofV, Shakespeare). She is True Justice, and i would suggest rather than balancing our inner darkness, quite, she is the inner door to the sacred, the soul, God, and home.Charlie Brown wrote: ↑23 Jul 2019, 01:10 Who is the Papess?
She transforms (death) the darkness (devil) into truth (justice).
Truth may be a little too pointed for justice, but the idea, broadly, of balancing out our inner darkness with wisdom, spirituality, and gnosis.
There's actually a Japanese term that I can't remember that I would prefer to gnosis. It translates into English as something like "heart learning."
Re: Why don't we ask the Papesse who she is ?
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.chiscotheque wrote: ↑23 Jul 2019, 21:50 (.......) and i would suggest rather than balancing our inner darkness, quite, she is the inner door to the sacred, the soul, God, and home.
Opening that door is something we humans find really hard to do.
Sometimes when I'm meditating I goof around a bit. And I have a knock knock joke. It always makes me laugh but I have a weird sense of humour. I based it on that verse about standing at the door and knocking. It goes "Knock knock". "Who's there?". "God". "God who?" "Godda minute for me?".
Rumi was asked “which music sound is haram?” Rumi replied, "The sound of tablespoons playing in the pots of the rich, which are heard by the ears of the poor and hungry." (haram means forbidden)