Cult of Tarot Forum

I listened today to an interview with Georges Colleuil.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Colleuil . The wiki page is only in French but if you do a google translate, the main info should be clear. Georges Colleuil is an erudite scholar and author and philosopher and cineaste (amongst others) and a connoisseur au pair of the Tarot of Marseille. He also created the beautiful Tarot of Marrakech with the artist Jean-Baptiste Valadié. https://www.georgescolleuil.com/a-propos/#section_tarot

He spoke in this interview for a little while about Arcanum XIII. I made some scribbled notes while he was talking and I thought I’d like to share them with you. There’s a lot of great stuff on the Tarot of Marseille in the French speaking world and if I can help disseminate it even by crumbs, then that’s a nice thing to do for the Tarot (a little gift as I love her so much). (There’s also naturally and as expected a lot of rubbish being spouted, but one always finds some pearls.)

So here I go with Georges Colleuil and Arcanum XIII. I’m transcribing my scribbled notes, so there’s no sort of Emperor IV structure to it. More just a flow of words.

The card has the number 13. In the 24 hour clock, 13h is the hour after midday. It’s called one o’clock in the 12 hour clock. One is new beginnings. But not new beginnings in the sense that there’s nothing left of the past. Because you have that skeleton which is Structure, and the blade of wheat which is Life.

Now as everyone knows it doesn’t have a NAME. Because now you have to give yourself a name. A new name. The Arcanum as asking you “What is your name ?” Here we’re in a process of reflecting on “Who am I ?”. It’s by asking the question “Who am I ?” that we can initiate the process of transformation. Not in order to change so as to be different from what I am, but to transform this temporal change to BECOME WHO I AM.

Which reminds me, that once he said in one of his conferences I attended : "Est-ce que le Tarot est un jeu de cartes ou des cartes du je". This is one of those language of the birds examples. Not easy to translate into English but I'll do my best. First, please note that JEU means "game", and that JE means "I". They're pronounced almost the same, very subtle difference. So the translation would be :

Is Tarot a game of cards (jeu de cartes) or cards of I (cartes du je).

(Very difficult to translate the language of the birds.)


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Very interesting. Thinking about synchronicity it might connect to the reading you did where X!!! was next to the Eight of swords.

inomminate wrote: ↑05 Jul 2019, 08:26 Very interesting. Thinking about synchronicity it might connect to the reading you did where X!!! was next to the Eight of swords.

Hey, you're right. So now I will be wandering around all day asking myself what my name is !!!!

That's interesting, because there's a tradition among some Natives of taking different names at different stages of their lives: maybe one name as a child, another when they reach adulthood and do something to prove themselves, and yet another when they're old. It makes a lot of sense when you think about it - people of any background might have baby nicknames that they outgrow. They might have an adult name that makes them sound sexy (burlesque-type names), or intimidating (pro wrestling names), or what-have-you, but stop using that name at retirement. You can go through your entire life with your "official" name being used only for tax purposes, and people calling you things that reflect who you actually are at any given time.

“What is your name ?” makes sense for this card.

katrinka wrote: ↑05 Jul 2019, 19:52 That's interesting, because there's a tradition among some Natives of taking different names at different stages of their lives: maybe one name as a child, another when they reach adulthood and do something to prove themselves, and yet another when they're old. It makes a lot of sense when you think about it - people of any background might have baby nicknames that they outgrow. They might have an adult name that makes them sound sexy (burlesque-type names), or intimidating (pro wrestling names), or what-have-you, but stop using that name at retirement. You can go through your entire life with your "official" name being used only for tax purposes, and people calling you things that reflect who you actually are at any given time.

“What is your name ?” makes sense for this card.

I tried to find which ethnic tribe or group uses this, but only find something mentioned briefly in an article on the Admondawa tribe who do not map time. Fascinating. Therefore they have no age either. The article makes a brief mention of the name : "The people do not refer to their ages, but rather assume different names in different stages of their lives or as they achieve different status within the community."

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-13452711

The Lakota do it. Crazy Horse was called "Curly" as a child. When he took the name Crazy Horse, his father, the first Crazy Horse, took the name "Worm". (This was not a dishonor, being humble was a virtue, and much respected.) https://wmich.edu/dialogues/texts/crazyhorse.html

Sitting Bull was called "Slow" or "Slow Turtle" as a child. His skills weren't apparent then. That changed when he was a teenager. "Sitting Bull" refers to a big buffalo bull sitting back on his haunches: intractable, immovable. Don't even try. https://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/people ... ngbull.htm (I admire these men so much - if only we could have leaders like them!)

Given the practices and traditions that so many of the Plains people held in common, I do think it's safe to assume that the name thing was pretty widespread. It's a sound, commonsense practice - once again, the Natives were right all along.

George Carlin had a list of people he could do without. #1 was "guys in their fifties named "Skip.""
See what I mean?

As far as the concept of time goes, it may be different in Brazil, but the people here do mark time. They just don't worship it. Eat when you're hungry, sleep when your tired, don't wait for the sun, or worse yet, a clock to get to a certain position!

katrinka wrote: ↑07 Jul 2019, 03:31 The Lakota do it. Crazy Horse was called "Curly" as a child. When he took the name Crazy Horse, his father, the first Crazy Horse, took the name "Worm". (This was not a dishonor, being humble was a virtue, and much respected.) https://wmich.edu/dialogues/texts/crazyhorse.html

Sitting Bull was called "Slow" or "Slow Turtle" as a child. His skills weren't apparent then. That changed when he was a teenager. "Sitting Bull" refers to a big buffalo bull sitting back on his haunches: intractable, immovable. Don't even try. https://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/people ... ngbull.htm (I admire these men so much - if only we could have leaders like them!)

Given the practices and traditions that so many of the Plains people held in common, I do think it's safe to assume that the name thing was pretty widespread. It's a sound, commonsense practice - once again, the Natives were right all along.

George Carlin had a list of people he could do without. #1 was "guys in their fifties named "Skip.""
See what I mean?

Ah, I didn't understand correctly what you meant by the term "Natives".

I didn't know all that. Thanks so much !

When I arrived in Europe when I was 17, I changed my name. For four years, I told people I had another name. No-one knew it wasn't my birth name. I realised in retrospect that I'd done it because I needed to forge a new identity to break completely with the past. It was when I found in my "scrap box" actually not so long ago something that I'd written a few years after I left my birth country (South Africa) which made me understand how important it was at the time to create a new me.

This is what I'd written :

Leaving
The evening sun is warm and white today. Whiter than the net curtains that attempt vainly to shield me from the bright light.

And I recall the flight. Not the details. None of those remain. But I remember the feeling. The sentiment. That huge surge of relief and a release. It was over. Heading to where that plane was going was all I had ever dreamed of. Well, almost, but it would do. For now.

All I had ever dreamed of was always elsewhere. It had to be. There had to be a place over the rainbow where bluebirds fly. There had to be somewhere that was not so dull and cruel and ignorant. 17 years of confinement in a cage gilded with fools' gold had left me hungry. I wanted to taste freedom and see if it was bitter or sweet, constant or inconstant.

And then one day at last I took flight. The time had come. All was in place. I don't remember the months nor weeks nor days before. No memory of those times can be found. All I remember is the One. The relief. There were no celebrations, nor were there any tears. Nothing of that kind. There was no need.

I didn't bother to look out of the window as the plane took off that winter evening. I had said my good byes years before.


I suppose that that was an Arcanum XIII experience in all its glory.

Marigold wrote: ↑04 Jul 2019, 20:02
Now as everyone knows it doesn’t have a NAME. Because now you have to give yourself a name. A new name. The Arcanum as asking you “What is your name ?” Here we’re in a process of reflecting on “Who am I ?”. It’s by asking the question “Who am I ?” that we can initiate the process of transformation. Not in order to change so as to be different from what I am, but to transform this temporal change to BECOME WHO I AM.

A name is never an insignificant matter. I will take my own personal history to illustrate this. Not in order to put myself forward, but just as an illustration.

When I look back, I realise that the question of a name has always followed me and haunted me somewhat. My real name is Diana. I never liked my name growing up. When I arrived in a French speaking environment when I was 17, people pronounced it different. The "I" is pronounced "ee". I accept it better like that. Just one syllable and all sounded better. So I got a wee bit (not completely) reconciled with it.

When I got married, there was no question, not even for a split second of taking my husband's name as is often the custom in the Western world. I was fiercely attached to my surname. It's a Polish surname. So for women it ends with an "a" and for men it would end with an "i*. When the Swiss authorities announced to me when I became Swiss that I had to use my father's name, i.e. with an "i" because children have to have their father's name, I was hugely indignant, and I went through a whole lot of administrative procedures to get my original name back. They accepted my arguments, I paid a bit of cash and my name was returned.

My username here, Marigold. I didn't give it much thought when I had to choose a user name. I wanted to use Diana as this was the name I used on ATF for many years and was known as such. But it was taken on another forum that I joined before this one, so I had to choose another one and used the same one when I joined COT. If I had joined COT first, I would have taken Diana. I regret it somewhat. I don't even LIKE marigolds - I don't feel all joyous when I see them like when I see a magnolia flower or other flowers that I love so much. If it were pronounced "Marygold", I would be more comfortable with it. Again... just one syllable and all is changed. Maybe I could ask Joan Marie if she would be okay if I changed the spelling. I'd be quite okay with Marygold.

Also, when I arrived in Europe from South Africa when I was 17, I was pretty lost and searching for myself. I didn't speak the language well and also felt like a country bumpkin. Like I'd come from the dark ages and needed to find my way in this new unknown world. It wasn't always so easy to adapt to the new world I was living in. So one day, when someone asked my name, I said "Jenny". I can't remember why. I don't recall my thought process before or even if I had one. Maybe it came out of the blue. But it stuck, and for many years, people didn't know my name was Diana. I was known only as Jenny.

Then of course, like lots of people I have a secret name that only I know of.

I think there is an answer in the Arcanum XIII which could help me figure out my issue with my name. I know there's an answer there somewhere. Obviously. No question can not have an answer. I may even do a reading on it one day. For instance in the thread "Plato's Cave". There's a question in the list that reads "Does a person’s name influence the person they become?". If I could become the Fool... maybe the name question wouldn't bother me anymore.