Moon in TdM - Cancer or Pisces ? (includes also posts on male/female aspects)

[archimedes]

Also regarding the sun card: I don't know whether it means the card definitively belongs to Cancer, but I think the lobster represents the constellation Cancer in that in the northern hemisphere, the sun is in Cancer in June; the two dogs panting and the rays behind the moon suggest the 'dog days of summer' as the sun rises and sets with the dog star Sirius, and the full moon in June is the Harvest moon.

[chiscotheque]

for the record: The Harvest Moon is at the end of September. The June full moon is a Strawberry Moon.

The Phaeton idea for the Sun is interesting, but he had 3 sisters and he didn't drive a horse but a chariot. he also wasn't a toddler as in the RWS, and there it should be poplar trees instead of those rather cliched sunflowers.

[Charlie Brown]

Aber der Mond verrät mich ... der Mond ist blutig. Will denn die ganze Welt es ausplaudern?! - Das Messer, es liegt zu weit vorn, sie finden's beim Baden oder wenn sie nach Muscheln tauchen.

[chiscotheque]

Aber der Mond verrät mich ... der Mond ist blutig.

jealousy, insanity, fits of pique - these may all be aspects of the Moon; an all too human response to inhuman pressures. yet Wozzeck explores militarism, a clinical rationalism, class exploitation, and a "culture" of dog eat dog brutalism which culminated in WWI when the libretto was written (albeit that "culture" is, like the poor, always with us). Isn't that "culture", which both the libretto and play expose, much more the realm of the Sun?

[Diana]

Just came across a most beautiful Sufi poem.


Bismillahir Rahmanir Rahim

In Praise of the Feminine Face of the Absolute Divine Beauty

Grant us union with Her always

Has the light of the sun appeared from the world of the Unseen,
or have the veils of Layla been lifted from Her essence?

Yes. The longing of Layla for Her beloved friend has grown
until She has revealed Her love,

So that he has become a captive of Her ardent desire and the
longing which are Her goblets called out to him.

She did not leave until She had given him a drink from Her
goblet. There is no blame. Drink! for the wine is Her speech.

And She is naught but the presence of Truth (hadratul-haqq), alone, who
manifests Herself through forms whose every light varies.

She has manifested the unique beauty of the form design in the
depth of Her being. Look at the attributes of the Beloved manifested in you.

By Allah none have attained complete bliss except the one who
becomes a humble slave and seeks Her out.

And thus, She immersed the ugliness of his nature in the beauty
of Hers, and lights shone from him, their rays appearing -

So that he withdrew from the sensory which was a barrier and
embraced a meaning from which it is unlawful to separate.

Therefore let your goal be to commit yourself, oh my brother,
and avoid otherness and Her gentle breeze will waft over
beloved ones from you.

You will open the hearing of the wayfarer's heart (fu'aadi min saalikin) because the
subtle knowledge of Her is Her proof.

Grant us union with Her always and cause us to withdraw from
every sensory existence.

- Songs of Shaykh Muhammad ibn al-Habib, may Allah sanctify his Sirr

[Charlie Brown]

Aber der Mond verrät mich ... der Mond ist blutig.

jealousy, insanity, fits of pique - these may all be aspects of the Moon; an all too human response to inhuman pressures. yet Wozzeck explores militarism, a clinical rationalism, class exploitation, and a "culture" of dog eat dog brutalism which culminated in WWI when the libretto was written (albeit that "culture" is, like the poor, always with us). Isn't that "culture", which both the libretto and play expose, much more the realm of the Sun?

An interesting thought. My immediate reaction is that the jealousy, insanity, etc. are the hidden underside of the rationalism, etc. Hidden undersides are part and parcel of my Moon card

[archimedes]

for the record: The Harvest Moon is at the end of September. The June full moon is a Strawberry Moon.

The Phaeton idea for the Sun is interesting, but he had 3 sisters and he didn't drive a horse but a chariot. he also wasn't a toddler as in the RWS, and there it should be poplar trees instead of those rather cliched sunflowers.

I stand corrected. I was confused for a moment as I'd been looking at this arch on Notre Dame which shows the wheat harvest in June:
http://www.medart.pitt.edu/image/france ... e%20sm.jpg

[Nona]

Technically, neither, as there are no historical associations with astrology in the TdM. Remember, it was originally just a deck of playing cards that predated the intentional esoteric symbolism added to the RWS.

However, if you want to prescribe astrological associations yourself, it stands to reason that the Moon would be Cancer, as that's the sign's planetary ruler in astrology. (Not to mention there's a crustacean prominently displayed on the card.) On the other hand, Crowley has the Moon card clearly labeled with Pisces in the Thoth tarot, so take that for whatever it's worth.

And, astrologically speaking, all the water signs -- Cancer, Scorpio and Pisces -- have feminine energy. The moon itself is typically regarded as a feminine symbol, as well (e.g., menstrual cycle/lunar cycle). ("La Lune" speaks for itself.)

Above all, I say go with whatever makes sense to you, especially since the TdM of all systems leaves room open for intuitive interpretation. Otherwise, what's the point?

[Charlie Brown]

Although 1) I don't really do astrological symbolism in tarot and 2) If I did, I'd probably favor Cancer, Pisces does make a lot of sense because the constant phasing of the moon is akin to the mutable nature of Pisces.

[Nona]

Pisces does make a lot of sense because the constant phasing of the moon is akin to the mutable nature of Pisces.

You could say that about any of the mutable signs (i.e., Gemini, Virgo, Sagittarius and Pisces), though.

But as I said, the beauty of the TdM is that it's open to personal interpretation. If something feels right to you then it is. That's the most important thing to keep in mind. Common sense should always override anything that a Little White Book says.

And for the record, there's no reason why the meaning can't change depending on the context of a reading. For example, just because there's feminine energy doesn't mean it can't represent a man. (After all, not everyone born under a "feminine" sign such as Cancer or Pisces is literally female). Too many beginners fall into the trap of focusing on individual card meanings while losing sight of the big picture.

[fire cat pickles]

We have 22 Majors and 12 zodiac signs. There aren't enough signs to go around are there? The GD assigned these zodiacs to whatever "they" felt like, and no one knows for sure why. Some are more obvious than others.

As Charlie Brown pointed out, TdM didn't even have any associations to begin with, and there are no historical records to indicate that the did.

So, we have 12 zodiacs, 5 planets, 2 luminaries, and 4 elements. This is a total of 23. We still have one more than we "need".

Why can't we just let the Moon card be "the moon"?

[Charlie Brown]

Why can't we just let the Moon card be "the moon"?

We can, of course. But saying just let the moon be the moon does call attention to the notion that The Moon card doesn't actually incorporate the bulk of what most of us think of as lunar symbolism. Lunar femininity/Mother Moon, for example and imo, falls under the high priestess. Moon as romance is absent. The Moon card is properly "the night is dark and full of terrors," hidden fears, the subconscious, etc. It's the card of night and darkness moreso than gentle moonlight (I guess, after all the light of the moon is merely the sun reflected). Those peaceful aspects of night seem more at home in The Star. So, even without the astrology, The Moon isn't really just the moon.

[Diana]

The Moon isn't really just the moon.

So I agree that there is likely no correspondence to zodiacal signs in the TdM. It would be more obvious if there were.

But it's a helluva confusing card. Is it a moon, or a lunar eclipse- there are rays which look sun rays ? Is it a Lobster or a Crayfish ? Why a lobster/crayfish - did this symbolise something special for the people of the times ? Why is one of the towers got an open roof and the other closed ? Are those dogs or wolves ? And why is there what seems to be an artificial pond quite far from the habitation in what looks like some desert like land ? That pond has always puzzled me. It's so big - takes up nearly half of the card. It's an odd shape too - obviously man made.

'Tis the voice of the Lobster: I heard him declare
"You have baked me too brown, I must sugar my hair."
As a duck with its eyelids, so he with his nose
Trims his belt and his buttons, and turns out his toes.
When the sands are all dry, he is gay as a lark,
And will talk in contemptuous tones of the Shark;
But, when the tide rises and sharks are around,
His voice has a timid and tremulous sound.
I passed by his garden, and marked, with one eye,
How the Owl and the Panther were sharing a pie:
The Panther took pie-crust, and gravy, and meat,
While the Owl had the dish as its share of the treat.
When the pie was all finished, the Owl, as a boon,
Was kindly permitted to pocket the spoon;
While the Panther received knife and fork with a growl,
And concluded the banquet by ---

This poem was interrupted by the Mock Turtle who declared that it was the most confusing thing he's ever hear, just like our lobster/crayfish and our Moon.

[fire cat pickles]

Why can't we just let the Moon card be "the moon"?

We can, of course. But saying just let the moon be the moon does call attention to the notion that The Moon card doesn't actually incorporate the bulk of what most of us think of as lunar symbolism. Lunar femininity/Mother Moon, for example and imo, falls under the high priestess.

Yes, of course, then there's that. Important not to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Here is an interesting article. I can't believe I found it after all these years. There is a table at the bottom with a very interesting table of correspondences:
https://www.hermetik-international.com/ ... al-tarots/




Note that Nos. 18 and 19 have Cancer and Gemini corresponding, resp., (just the way I like it!)

[AstralPasta]

I'm not a TdM reader so maybe this isn't relevant.

I've been thinking, coming from RWS and GD correspondences, the moon and sun really oughta be renamed Night and Day.

Astrologically, the moon is the High Priestess and pisces is the Moon card.

In the Thoth, I think, and to me, the High Priestess contains the aspects of the moon that have to do with rhythmn and polarity. The card is often associated with "womens secrets" and that sort of mysticism and fertility, and mysteriousness and all that. She's a guardian figure in regards to the unconscious. All the things many modern day pagans associate with the moon as a feminine and benevolent figure. Magic, witchcraft, cycles, mysticism, the unconscious, etc etc.

The title Moon card is given descriptors like confusion, dark night of the soul, the spirit world, shadows, things not being what they seem, dreams, powerful unconscious forces, fear, uncertainty, anxiety.... it's associated with pisces and explained by linking illusions, the connective unconscious, and spirituality.

Doesn't that seem kinda like...Nighttime?? The moon is an illuminator. The night is just....dark! And you can't see! And things look scary! Because it's night! And you're alone and you want someone to hold your hand through it - "though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death" - that seems like the Night not the Moon.

And people talk about how by working through the moon card you can find the gold within the shadow. Yeah, that's the day. The night gives way to the day, the sunrise, the dawn. The rebirth happens. Ra makes it through the labyrinth of the underworld.

Like, tbh, the only reason I think the Sun should be called the Day, is because no other card has it's astrological correspondence as it's name. And it's a point of contention I notice when people see the moon and high priestess mess. I also notice people don't often describe the sun in reference to heat, more optimism and clarity and consciousness. Some folks say the sun is always a positive card. Idk....this bit is slightly weaker as a connection, but I stand by it for now, haha.

Also it ties in well with this Emily Dickinson poem:

Our share of night to bear,
Our share of morning,
Our blank in bliss to fill,
Our blank in scorning.

Here a star, and there a star
Some lose their way.
Here a mist, and there a mist,
Afterwards—day!

I don't know, that's all I have to say on that for now. I hope this is somehow useful for you TdM-ers hehe

edit: Pisces as Night makes as much sense to me as the Devil to Capricorn and Cancer as the Chariot, hehe. It's a link, but not the namesake, I suppose. I feel like it's even more consistent that way, if it were renamed.

edit edit: read the entire thread and notice Charlie Brown mentioned the Moon as more of a night/dark thing up there ^ hehe

[Nona]

Why can't we just let the Moon card be "the moon"?

Agreed. I seldom find any obvious relevance to astrology in my readings.

[KoyDeli]

Note that Nos. 18 and 19 have Cancer and Gemini corresponding, resp., (just the way I like it!)

Pierre Piobb (in whose column we find 18/19 as Cancer and Gemini) was an astrologer, and looked at and interpreted the cards from a mainly astrological point of view - and Cancer and Gemini seem most obviously related to the zodiacal tableaus beneath the Star Moon and Sun, I would myself though think of the tableau beneath the Star however as relating to Aquarius, rather than Venus as he has it. These three celestial cards in the TdM are the only three I think with any obvious astrological content - I don't think the structure overall is founded upon a specifically astrological basis. Though some one might relate via a relationship with the Children of the Planets, such as the bateleur with the moon, as he often appears in prints of Children of the Moon. One also might relate perhaps the Emperor to the Moon and the Pope to the Sun, following the medieval concept of the Lights of the World, in which the Emperor appears atop the Ladder of the Moon, and the Pope atop the Ladder of the Sun. But thus are all by association, rather than the direct imagery of the three celestial cards.

Most other astrological correspondences are cabbalistic and are indirectly derived from the attribution of the cards to the letters of the Hebrew alphabet, to which are given astrological correspondences, found in the Sepher Yetzira, thus they are called Yetziratic correspondences. These attributions vary according to whichever occultist/esoteric school one goes with.

Thus for example, in the English/GD traditon, the Moon corresponds with the letter Qoph, and the letter Qoph is one the 12 double letters in the SY to which the zodiacal signs are attributed, in this case to Pisces. So the relation is somewhat secondary or indirect - XVIII-Moon-Qoph-Pisces, rather than directly to the imagery of the card.

Rather than these somewhat stretched correspondences of the esoteric schools, I prefer to go with what I see on the card, Moon - Crustacean - Cancer; Sun - Twins - Gemini; Star - kneeling water pourer - Aquarius.

[Diana]

Oh my ears and whiskers ! What a brilliant post KoyDeli. So my day is already been filled and it's only 1pm. I'll certainly be getting back to it when I've taken the time to think on it and research the things you mention that I'm not aware of or have scant knowledge. And am looking forward to it !

But please, tell me already now if you're willing : What is this "Children of the Planets, such as the bateleur with the moon, as he often appears in prints of Children of the Moon." Sort of gives one nice shivers down one's spine, but I don't understand either Children of the Planets, nor why the Bateleur is associated with the Moon.

(insert impatient to hear the answer emoticon here)

[KoyDeli]

"Children of the Planets" was a theme for many series of prints from the 15th century on. Each print would include an image of the planet, its signs, a figure representing the Planet, and beneath various people involved in activities ruled by that planet. The cup and ball-player is a common character among many of them, as a Child of the Moon:



In this example note too the crustacean, very much like our TdM crayfish/lobster, as the emblem of Cancer, ruled by the Moon.