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Trump Orders
Posted: 31 May 2018, 08:13
by thesteelpanther
One of the things I find utterly fascinating about the tarot is the emphasis on the order of the trumps. Most people coming to the tarot today naturally assume that the order printed on their card is the "correct one," which brings me to my primary point. Michael Dummett identified 3 early orderings for the trumps out of four regional areas - Bologna and Florence for Order A, Ferrara for Order B, and Milan for Order C. There never was one original ordering.
The more germane point is that these orders all arose for one reason only - to facilitate game play. The earliest trumps were not labeled and there was no way to tell which trump outranked another in the game of tarocchi. The only solution was to have an agreed upon order that all the players adhered to. Different orders developed in different regions, but they all developed for the sole purpose of facilitating game play.
Trying to use an ordering that was created for game play in order to decipher any possible esoteric or mystical meanings from the trump's symbolism, is like trying to use a toothpick to hammer in a nail. One has nothing to do with the other.
What's your take on the orders?
Re: Trump Orders
Posted: 31 May 2018, 10:42
by Joan Marie
I have a Sola Busca deck and I always thought the actual numbers, the roman numerals on the Trumps looked kind of tacked on.
Even the pips, though the correct number of Swords or Discs etc would appear, it looks like they added the tiny numbers to make card playing easier.
The order of the Trumps does seem fairly arbitrary. Wasn't it with the RWS deck that the "Fool's Journey" story began which sort of created a little narrative that made sense of the order?
I wonder if the numbers served any real purpose at all in historical decks? The illustrations are so intensely symbolic and arcane, numbers seem a bit superfluous.
Re: Trump Orders
Posted: 31 May 2018, 12:14
by thesteelpanther
They aren't superfluous. They became necessary to distinguish the order of play. The tarot was first and foremost a game. The idea of granting the order some sort of special occult significance began with Antoine Court de Gebelin in 1781 and found its fullest expression...perhaps, in the RWS.
Re: Trump Orders
Posted: 26 Aug 2018, 03:45
by BreathingSince72
Joan Marie wrote: ↑31 May 2018, 10:42
I have a Sola Busca deck and I always thought the actual numbers, the roman numerals on the Trumps looked kind of tacked on
I wonder if the numbers served any real purpose at all in historical decks? The illustrations are so intensely symbolic and arcane, numbers seem a bit superfluous.
I’ve been intrigued by this deck ever since you read for me with it. I have read at it was the first deck to ever people scene the pips. What are your impressions? Are you pleased with your purchase?
Re: Trump Orders
Posted: 02 Sep 2018, 14:22
by Joan Marie
I wrote a little bit about it in
another post today.
It's a very special, enigmatic deck and one I hope to have some time to write about some more soon.
Sorry for such a short reply, but to answer your question here, I've been very pleased with it though I have to admit it baffled me for a long time. When I finally really picked it up though, I was hooked.
And yes, I understand the same thing that it was the first deck to illustrate the pips and legend also has it that Pamela Coleman Smith was very influenced by it when she was illustrating the Rider-Waite deck. Apparently some original prints (or maybe it was the original printing plates, I can't recall exactly) were on display in a special exhibit at the British Museum in London at that time and she visited frequently studying their imagery. Some of her pip cards were very close in composition, most not so much, however the influence is palpable.
Re: Trump Orders
Posted: 02 Sep 2018, 17:40
by Charlie Brown
I feel that it's a little more complicated than Steel Panther is making it out to be. He's not wrong about anything, as far as my knowledge goes, but I personally find it more useful to think about the tarot's structure as an emergent property rather than trying to find any kind of 'original' intent in what was, of course, a gaming deck. Yes, the numbers and ordering developed because the trumps needed to be distinguished for game play but their ultimate ordering wasn't merely willy-nilly despite some geographic variants. The trumps/major arcana present a robust set of archetypes that do have a fairly sensible internal logic based solely on shared cultural understandings. Using that logic to create a space that helps us discover meaning strikes me as the heart of the cartomantic art.
In my personal experience, I haven't really seen an excessive amount of "emphasis on the order of the trumps." But, if there is, I would guess it's because a particular ordering or particular orderings help create and/or clarify the interpretive framework that a reader must internalize to excel at the craft.
Re: Trump Orders
Posted: 03 Sep 2018, 17:11
by BreathingSince72
I don’t know that I can describe precisely how I came to this thinking but some time ago, at another site, I came across a debate redgarding the trumps order and how the trumps having an established order was not always the case. On another occasion, I thought I had read somewhere that the Sola Busca courts were not designated by titles in cards and for some reason this made me think of the Christian bible. The books of the Bible were not originally broken down by chapter and verse. This was something that evolved over time, an invention of man so we could all reference the same line when it was referred to. It does not strike me as the least bit odd that the order of the trumps could have evolved over time, based on human need. We do love to organize, categorize and define.
Re: Trump Orders
Posted: 03 Sep 2018, 17:24
by BreathingSince72
thesteelpanther wrote: ↑31 May 2018, 08:13
One of the things I find utterly fascinating about the tarot is the emphasis on the order of the trumps. Most people coming to the tarot today naturally assume that the order printed on their card is the "correct one," which brings me to my primary point. Michael Dummett identified 3 early orderings for the trumps out of four regional areas - Bologna and Florence for Order A, Ferrara for Order B, and Milan for Order C. There never was one original ordering.
The more germane point is that these orders all arose for one reason only - to facilitate game play. The earliest trumps were not labeled and there was no way to tell which trump outranked another in the game of tarocchi. The only solution was to have an agreed upon order that all the players adhered to. Different orders developed in different regions, but they all developed for the sole purpose of facilitating game play.
Trying to use an ordering that was created for game play in order to decipher any possible esoteric or mystical meanings from the trump's symbolism, is like trying to use a toothpick to hammer in a nail. One has nothing to do with the other.
What's your take on the orders?
I have to ask then if the greater the number, the greater the rank? I mean Aces still beat Kings but how did this work with Tarocchi?
The Fool’s journey and when this idea started is also mentioned in this thread. I rather appreciate Jean-Claude Flornoy’s take on the Marseilles majors, although I admit my understanding is new and I am only recently introduced to his work. I will share more on that later but suffice it to say that the first five trumps are described more like family members than archetypes.
I agree, in part, with your statement about using the order to decipher esoteric meanings BUT have to lean in the direction of Yoav Ben-Dov’s Assertion that highly intelligent and/or educated persons can see a great number of wonderful things in the tarot. My personal feeling is that the tarot structure can be laid, like a transparency, over any system one is trying to learn. It lends itself beautifully to that.
Victoria
